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"Oh, that Padan!"
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Aug 18, 2021 22:00
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Bad news - second draft is ghostwritten by Terry Goodkind. 
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Aug 18, 2021 22:00
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Zore posted:Theres like a 0 percent chance any of the Tylin stuff gets adapted. The show is going to cut out tons of stuff or shuffle it around as is, no point adapting stuff people don't like. no, they made the whole last season have explosive diarrhea
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Aug 18, 2021 22:03
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Zore posted:GoT didn't do Dany having explosive diarrhea in the show I don’t know, we all saw season 8 efb: ^^^ knew I should have gone to the next page first!
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Aug 18, 2021 22:19
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Going by the online commentary you'd think S8 gave all the viewers explosive diarrhea
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Aug 18, 2021 22:32
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Going by the online commentary you'd think S8 gave all the viewers explosive diarrhea Would have been preferable tbh
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Aug 18, 2021 22:35
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Not So Fast posted:A lot of other people also dislike it because characters in-universe describe it as Mat getting his comeuppance for being a womaniser, which is also blatantly wrong-headed as he never pursued anyone like that prior to Tylin Elayne's only romantic experience is the hunky boy that literally fell into her garden, and so she doesn't recognize how carefully Mat is never forceful in any way, and always is trying to figure out just whether or not a woman would be interested, and so she's working from cultural stereotypes about what a man who frequents taverns and sleeps around a lot is like in his seduction. She assumes all Tylin's doing is acting like the sort of common lout she vaguely assumes Mat is. Probably neither of them fully grasp the severity of Tylin threatening Mat with a knife and that while maybe he could avoid the situation, it would involve, I don't know, assaulting and possibly murdering a queen. And if he did see the whole situation, Beslan might still not find his mother's actions to be over the line, given the culture in which he was raised and the noble privilege he likely assumes unconsciously. Invalid Validation posted:He’s clearly not bothered by it since he shows affection for her at the end and it never effects him in any way going forward. If Tuon advanced on him and he just like ran away screaming because of it, I might be more inclined to forgive it. But it’s too long winded and doesn’t matter like too much of the series. I think Tylin's got an interesting dynamic there, where she's forced to submit and pretend that things are okay to those who have conquered her realm. While effectively keeping Mat prisoner as a sex slave, she's putting on a smile for Suroth and Tuon at tea, talking about how wonderful it is to be accepted into the Blood. Beslan, who wants to lead an insurgency, eventually comes to accept his place in the Empire, based on the promise from Tuon that he will be treated with actual respect. (I guess it's a Mitsobar dynamic, not a Tylin dynamic.) As for Mat's relationship with Tuon, it might've been interesting to see hesitancy from him when they're first physically intimate (for a reason other than all the guards standing watch), but the structure of the courtship doesn't exactly allow for a demonstration of the effects of trauma and abuse that Mat might experience. (Because he's the one pursuing her, because he's doing so very slowly, deliberately, and gradually, because she is always the more reticent of the two even given that ...) It would've been interesting if Mat and Tuon had a relationship where more of Mat's previous bad experiences could've had an influence, so that the readers could see how those stuck with him. th3t00t posted:Yeah, Jordan is attempting to juxtapose the roles in and reactions to sexual assault. Seems like he failed in his attempt as there's no clear consensus among readers on if he was intentionally trying to horrify with this situation or tell a joke. And the thread seems to come back to this discussion frequently. "It had a laugh track! Clearly they were trying to make a joke and didn't realize how tasteless it was!" "Holy poo poo do you see how horrible this situation is? People normally laugh at things like this!" And on, and on. I think I'm right, of course, but also I'm telling a very charitable interpretation of a series that I like. Maybe a less charitable interpretation would be a more accurate one, and I'm biased against accepting that interpretation because I want to heap favor on a thing I already like. (What I'm saying is, I accept that there's a range of views and we're probably never going to stop talking about this.)
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Aug 19, 2021 00:03
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Vavrek posted:To me, this is part of it being a well-done portrayal: in Ebou Dar, a woman taking a man who is uninterested is seen as normal, and so Beslan just shrugs and talks about how good Mat is for his mother. I don't think that is accurate. In fact, I know it isn't. The two relevant passages. A Crown Of Swords quote:“I think you will be good for my Mother, Mat.” quote:Shaking her head, she seated herself on the steps and put her hands on her knees. Her dark green skirts, sewn up on the left side, showed red petticoats. Ebou Dari really did seem to knock Tinkers on their heels when it came to choosing colors. The buzz of Seanchan voices fought with the high-pitched music all around them, and she sat there looking at him sternly. “You don’t know our ways, that is the trouble,” she said. “Pretties are an old and honored custom in Altara. Many a young man or woman has a final fling as a pretty, pampered and showered with presents, before settling down. But you see, a pretty leaves when she chooses. Tylin shouldn’t be treating you as I hear she is. Still,” she added judiciously, “I must say she dresses you well.” She made a circling motion with one hand. “Hold out your cloak and turn around so I can get a better look.” What Tylin is doing to Mat is not part of the local custom. It is close enough that Beslan and most others think that it is, but everybody's reaction is centered around them believing that Mat is a willing participant. This is the same reason that Elayne initially mocks him for it - she first thinks that Mat is the abuser, and then transitions to thinking he went hunting her and bagged a tiger instead of a pussycat. The only major player who twigs to what's really going on calls it wrong and helps him escape.
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Aug 19, 2021 01:02
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One thing to consider here is that RJ had a very clear throughline for pretty much very single character who engages with the removal of consent (rape, forced bonding, Compulsion). Which is that they go towards a karmic reversal or death. So while RJ doesn't come out and say "rape is bad, Mat is a victim, Tylin is a monster here, I can't believe I have to put these words down on paper", you can go down the list of rapists and Compulsion users and get a 99% match with an eventual ironic ending. The only exceptions? Moiraine/Merilelle, and possibly Tuon.
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Aug 19, 2021 01:05
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yeah, i think there were things that weren't handled as well as they could have been but there's no point where i would sit there and say that jordan actually condones that sort of poo poo in any form
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Aug 19, 2021 01:23
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We can argue forever but the guy's been dead for 14 years, we'll never know his intent. But continue on I guess
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Aug 19, 2021 03:25
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Bad news - second draft is ghostwritten by Terry Goodkind. this is almost as bad as anything in the old grrm thread how dare you wish that on anyone
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Aug 19, 2021 03:49
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In that Terry Goodkind died recently, I don't think you need to worry about that happening. 
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Aug 19, 2021 04:30
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jng2058 posted:In that Terry Goodkind died recently, I don't think you need to worry about that happening. Thats why he's a ghostwriter
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Aug 19, 2021 04:43
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Thats why he's a ghostwriter 
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Aug 19, 2021 04:46
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Thats why he's a ghostwriter lol
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Aug 19, 2021 05:26
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Trailer when. I want to know how low I should set my expectations
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Aug 19, 2021 10:43
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Vavrek posted:One point is that while abuse is universally a bad thing (like, I think of it as part of the definition of the term), abusers are not thus universally bad people. Being an abuser doesn't mean a person don't also have other qualities that are admirable or worthy of some kind of affection. nah abusers are bad
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Aug 19, 2021 10:56
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ChubbyChecker posted:nah yeah, that's why we let horrific monsters kill them one Gholam for every abuser
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Aug 19, 2021 11:32
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ChubbyChecker posted:nah Nuance and shades of grey, in my Wheel of Time?
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Aug 19, 2021 14:28
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Libluini posted:yeah, that's why we let horrific monsters kill them There are different options, of course: *) Liandrin *) Moghedien *) Alanna It's something Brandon even picked up on (unless the endgame ones were specified by Team Jordan) for example: *) Graendal
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Aug 19, 2021 16:26
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The rape scene I'm referring to is when Logan rapes the Aes Sedai. They're both "taken" against their will. One "gets used to" sleeping with her rapist, and the other is pretty much an involuntary slave. They're definitely "the bad guys" before it happens, but it's a such an absurd thing to throw into a character (Logain) and later just ignore. He does become the hero later, so there's no "comeuppance" for the deed.
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Aug 19, 2021 18:07
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The best comment I've seen lately on the various very real problems in the Wheel of Time is that dead authors don't get a chance to improve. Jordan was progressive enough for the nineties that I like to think he'd be more progressive today and write better things today if he had the chance to, but he doesn't, so we can't know. OTOH he might be pulling a Rowling all over Twitter so, small blessings Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 18:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:OTOH he might be pulling a Rowling all over Twitter so, small blessings 😬
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Aug 19, 2021 18:29
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ninjoatse.cx posted:The rape scene I'm referring to is when Logan rapes the Aes Sedai. They're both "taken" against their will. One "gets used to" sleeping with her rapist, and the other is pretty much an involuntary slave. They're definitely "the bad guys" before it happens, but it's a such an absurd thing to throw into a character (Logain) and later just ignore. He does become the hero later, so there's no "comeuppance" for the deed. It's somewhat instructive that Cadsuane's group of "not involved in tower politics" Aes Sedai are the ones who started the trend of approximately consensual bonds with their Asha'man Warders, and that she gets to be the next Amyrlin.
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Aug 19, 2021 18:32
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ninjoatse.cx posted:The rape scene I'm referring to is when Logan rapes the Aes Sedai. They're both "taken" against their will. One "gets used to" sleeping with her rapist, and the other is pretty much an involuntary slave. They're definitely "the bad guys" before it happens, but it's a such an absurd thing to throw into a character (Logain) and later just ignore. He does become the hero later, so there's no "comeuppance" for the deed. That was definitely written as the one Aes Sedai choosing to seduce and sleep with him to try and gather info. I did not get the impression he made any sexual advances on them and used the bond strictly to keep them out of trouble. The involuntary bonding is a different discussion really but hardly the rape scene you purport.
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Aug 19, 2021 18:34
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ninjoatse.cx posted:The rape scene I'm referring to is when Logan rapes the Aes Sedai. They're both "taken" against their will. One "gets used to" sleeping with her rapist, and the other is pretty much an involuntary slave. They're definitely "the bad guys" before it happens, but it's a such an absurd thing to throw into a character (Logain) and later just ignore. He does become the hero later, so there's no "comeuppance" for the deed. That's not quite how I read those scenes. I mean the "taken" part is the part where he binds them with a Warder bond without their consent the same way that Allanna did to Rand. I'm pretty sure that Toveine never has sex with Logain, and they make it pretty clear that when Gabrelle does so, she's the one who initiates the sexual relationship, albeit because she's trying to pump Logain for information to help them escape. Now one can argue that forced Bonding is a form of spiritual or mental rape, and certainly Rand feels pretty violated when it's done to him. On the other hand, Toveine, Gabrelle, and the other force bonded Aes Sedai had come to the Black Tower with the expressed intent to kill everyone there and by bonding them, the Asha'mon found a way to keep them prisoner without Stilling them or killing them. So it's something of a grey area. But I'm fairly certain Logaine never physically rapes Toveine, and his sexual relationship with Gabrelle is consensual for both parties. e: It does make me wonder if the fact that Gabrelle accepted the bond and was able to draw strength from it while Toveine rejected it and wanted nothing to do with it was a factor in Gabrelle being able to resist being Turned, while Toveine was not? jng2058 fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 18:41
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jng2058 posted:That's not quite how I read those scenes. There's multiple instances of nonconsensual lovely behavior surrounding the bond for both male and female channelers. All the bonding without asking is the most problematic, from Alanna and Rand to Myrelle and Lan to Logain and the Ashaman. Alanna and Myrelle are both called out for it as a rape-like act in the text. That said, most of it is non-sexual, and the sexual stuff we're given details on is largely consensual (as much as it can be within that kind of power dynamic). The exception is Myrelle and Lan. As part of his post-Moiraine-bond-therapy, she was "taking him into her bed", and this may have been compelled. Even if it's not, it's super gross to have sex with your patient to "cure" them. But all of this is condemned very clearly. The grossest part is that she doesn't really face punishment aside from forcible recruitment to Egwene's power bloc in the Salidar Aes Sedai. Logain and his crew bond Aes Sedai who were on a mission to capture and gentle Ashaman. The bond is being utilized as a way to hold them captive rather than trying to maintain shields on a bunch of wily old women. There's nothing overtly sexual that happens as a result of this. The only thing we know about is Gabrelle, and she intentionally tries to use sex to gain some power in her relationship with Logain. Her plan backfires because she discovers that being mid-coitus with someone whose emotions you're tapped into but who can also consciously and unconsciously control you results in some kind of subsumption of both identity and agency into the bond-holder's desires. She is apparently into it though and continues the relationship willingly. Toveine has no sexual relationship with Logain but is definitely being held prisoner, just like a lot of the other Aes Sedai. quote:Toveine grabbed the taller woman’s arm, pulling her a little way from the men. “We may be captives, Gabrelle,” she whispered harshly, “but that is no reason to surrender. Especially to Ablar’s vile lusts!” The other woman did not so much as look abashed! A thought came. Of course. “Did he . . . ? Did he order you?” aparmenideanmonad fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 18:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The best comment I've seen lately on the various very real problems in the Wheel of Time is that dead authors don't get a chance to improve. Jordan was progressive enough for the nineties that I like to think he'd be more progressive today and write better things today if he had the chance to, but he doesn't, so we can't know.  His wife seems convinced RJ wouldn't have taken the current brand of culture war sitting down, at least.
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Aug 19, 2021 23:52
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:
thanks for posting that, completely makes sense given everything we know about WoT but it’s nice to hear
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Aug 20, 2021 00:20
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:
This is very cool to see for sure. I also like to think RJ would have evolved and improved. I read progressive feminist philosophy papers that got me woke as gently caress in the late 90s and now kinda cringe at how bad they are from a contemporary standpoint in a world where TERFs exist in popular culture. Most of those authors have continued to publish really great stuff and kept up with the general project of humanism and calling out oppression and injustice, but you might think otherwise if all you saw were their vaguely gender essentialist takes on the metaphysics of womanhood from the 90s.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The best comment I've seen lately on the various very real problems in the Wheel of Time is that dead authors don't get a chance to improve. Jordan was progressive enough for the nineties that I like to think he'd be more progressive today and write better things today if he had the chance to, but he doesn't, so we can't know. yeah, dead authors should be judged on what they wrote, not on what people think that they would write today
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Aug 20, 2021 09:44
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See also: Terry Pratchett
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Aug 20, 2021 10:38
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Eighties ZomCom posted:See also: Terry Pratchett We can be 100% confident Pratchett wouldn't be a TERF based on what he wrote, said and did, thankfully.
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Aug 20, 2021 11:46
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Cavelcade posted:We can be 100% confident Pratchett wouldn't be a TERF based on what he wrote, said and did, thankfully. yeah
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Aug 20, 2021 11:55
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Cavelcade posted:We can be 100% confident Pratchett wouldn't be a TERF based on what he wrote, said and did, thankfully. Of course. But TERFs didn't bother to read anything he wrote before claiming he would've supported them.
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Aug 20, 2021 12:12
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that's mainly because they have poo poo for brains and are basically a right-wing cult on the same level of brainworms as the anti-vaxxer movement, and are desperate to posthumously baptize people into their movement like mormons do
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Aug 20, 2021 12:35
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Johnny Joestar posted:that's mainly because they have poo poo for brains and are basically a right-wing cult on the same level of brainworms as the anti-vaxxer movement, and are desperate to posthumously baptize people into their movement like mormons do I asked a (Catholic) priest about this baptism-poo poo once and he told me in a very stern voice that both posthumously and "accidental" baptism by spritzing holy water in someone's face against their will does not work and is invalid. God will not accept a conversion that's not out of your own free will. I'm imagining you could annoy those people to no end by answering all their crazy claims with "No, this person does not support your cause, because God has said so"
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Aug 20, 2021 13:41
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Libluini posted:I asked a (Catholic) priest about this baptism-poo poo once and he told me in a very stern voice that both posthumously and "accidental" baptism by spritzing holy water in someone's face against their will does not work and is invalid. God will not accept a conversion that's not out of your own free will. that's ridiculous because babies get baptized, if he really meant that then he would only baptize adults
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Aug 20, 2021 17:12
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Doctor Jeep posted:that's ridiculous because babies get baptized, if he really meant that then he would only baptize adults as an Atheist, I chose to believe it means no-one is actually baptized and 100% of all Christians will end up in Hell
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Aug 20, 2021 17:17
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