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Regalingualius posted:Yeah, I’m kind of wondering that myself. jobs in this game fit within 3 hotbars, no more. sometimes less, but the exceptions are primarily ranged. a couple have a little TOO much space such that you can't hotbar mounts and potions and poo poo but that depends on if you have an mmo mouse e: new page quoting myself on job difficulty- Mister Olympus posted:in general: Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 23:18
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acumen posted:MCH is an easy 1-2-3 ya. I'm not sure how the auto combo mod works but you may even be able to one-button the heat blast/ricochet/gauss phase too? MCH is incredibly easy though, probably one of the lowest button counts. Works great imo. Your 1 2 3 becomes the one button. Overheat auto swaps to Heat Blast on press too. You cant work Gauss/Ricochet in though, they remain a seperate bind. I still spend too much time looking at my bars tho, even though rotation is simple 
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Aug 18, 2021 23:19
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Mister Olympus posted:in general: Dancer and Machinist should be much lower on the list, they are pretty easy There are different kinds of difficulty, though. Like, Dancer and Machinist have more differrent button usage, but as ranged DPS they literally just need to bit those buttons and occasionally dodge an AoE whereas healers need to be paying attention to what everyone else is doing and tanks needs to know ahead of time when tankbusters are coming up/etc Piell fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 23:23
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Piell posted:Dancer and Machinist should be much lower on the list, they are pretty easy i would be inclined to agree with you because i hate cast bars, but i'm being very general and taking a broad view of difficulty, i.e. machinist is the 'hardest' ranged because it has periods of extremely high APM and a stricter rotation, and dps are categorically 'harder' than healers because of how little actual healing healers will have to do in story content. tankbusters are a good example; they might as well not exist for 90% of all content in this game because normal-mode tankbusters are tuned such that they expect you to be able to take them raw. you would have to make a completely different list per-fight when you get into savage or ultimate.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:26
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Mister Olympus posted:i would be inclined to agree with you because i hate cast bars, but i'm being very general and taking a broad view of difficulty, i.e. machinist is the 'hardest' ranged because it has periods of extremely high APM and a stricter rotation, and dps are categorically 'harder' than healers because of how little actual healing healers will have to do in story content Machinist is dead simple, you have a single target rotation, a multi-target attack, and a secondary rotation that just alternating between 2-3 buttons. Aside from that you just use whatever comes off cooldown whenever it comes up/the battery bar is full. You are pressing slightly more buttons per minute than other classes but there is zero variance or need to worry about what button to press and there is no way to gently caress it up aside from not doing quite as much damage, which generally doesn't really matter. DPS in general (and ranged physical DPS especially) is "simpler" because there are basically zero consequences if you gently caress something up (aside from standing AoEs), whereas loving up as a tank/healer can lead to a wipe Piell fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 23:29
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Mister Olympus posted:dps are categorically 'harder' than healers because of how little actual healing healers will have to do in story content. Mm, ok this is like questing complexity then? I've only really played 3 classes (warrior bard astrologer) and AST feels much much more complicated than BRD even at lower levels but I kind of only rate instances in my thinking.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:35
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But at the same time, it’s much harder TO gently caress something up as a tank/healer because so very little is asked of them in story content. I’m not taking tanxiety into account because it’s a phenomenon people either can get over or they just never play tanks. Honestly you might make a separate list for dungeons, then speedrunning dungeons, then normal raids, then alliance raids, then any of the alternate difficulties Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 23:35
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Mister Olympus posted:But at the same time, it’s much harder TO gently caress something up as a tank/healer because so very little is asked of them in story content. I’m not taking tanxiety into account because it’s a phenomenon people either can get over or they just never play tanks. Nothing is asked of DPS either generally in story content.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:38
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yeah that's partially my fault for using somewhat ambiguous language, but there's too many axis for how jobs can be difficult to give any sort of real metric. maybe the only thing you find daunting is a high APM - black mage has literally the lowest APM in the entire game, and honestly a pretty straightforward rotation once you get over the mental hurdle of "why do I have like 10 spells that all share basically the same name?" But people will often put black mage on their personal list of more complex jobs because the complexity comes from a different place, namely an extreme focus on minimizing movement (and even then that only really matters for a small fraction of content) and knowing how to recover gracefully if you mess up Enochian. and then jobs that people will often call simple like Red Mage or Dancer regularly get new players show up in these threads at a complete loss over how to play them (and it's specifically always those two jobs for whatever reason). I do wish there was a tank with more complexity like HW DRK but I sorta feel like that ship has sailed for whatever reason.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:38
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Countblanc posted:yeah that's partially my fault for using somewhat ambiguous language, but there's too many axis for how jobs can be difficult to give any sort of real metric. maybe the only thing you find daunting is a high APM - black mage has literally the lowest APM in the entire game, and honestly a pretty straightforward rotation once you get over the mental hurdle of "why do I have like 10 spells that all share basically the same name?" But people will often put black mage on their personal list of more complex jobs because the complexity comes from a different place, namely an extreme focus on minimizing movement (and even then that only really matters for a small fraction of content) and knowing how to recover gracefully if you mess up Enochian. and then jobs that people will often call simple like Red Mage or Dancer regularly get new players show up in these threads at a complete loss over how to play them (and it's specifically always those two jobs for whatever reason). Dancer just seems complicated because of all the 50% chances for things to happen, once you've got your hotbar set up in a way that makes sense to you it's basically just about hitting the flashing buttons
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Aug 18, 2021 23:40
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Piell posted:Nothing is asked of DPS either generally in story content. At the same time, optimizing a dps can be done to a much greater extent than optimizing a tank or healer in story content, as most of those toolkits for optimization are simply overkill, whereas there is no such thing as “overkill” for dps where you can absolutely overheal or overmitigate. This is a good demonstration of how subjective these lists can be but I’m definitely thinking from a standpoint of what buttons at which time. If you aren’t taking that into account you could say all jobs are the same because they all have the same success in story content from hitting only their combo starter or only their aoe heal.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:42
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Mister Olympus posted:in general: -I think Ninja is pretty easy to play overall. You go nuts pressing buttons for 15-20 seconds, then basically just press 123 or 124 for 40-45 seconds, then go nuts again but a little less so on odd-numbered minutes. Just gotta take the time to commit the opener to memory. -I think Bard is on the harder side to play because of the proc randomness. Thinking about optimally weaving Pitch Perfect during Wanderer's or Bloodletter during Mage's while also doing mechanics is not easy. Dancer's randomness mostly happens on GCD skills so it's much easier to handle.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:46
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Mister Olympus posted:At the same time, optimizing a dps can be done to a much greater extent than optimizing a tank or healer in story content, as most of those toolkits for optimization are simply overkill, whereas there is no such thing as “overkill” for dps where you can absolutely overheal or overmitigate. The ceiling for DPS is definitely higher but the floor is lower, which is another category of "difficulty". You basically can't fail as a DPS for most of the game (even dying mostly just means the healer picks you up and the fight continues as normal), whereas I've definitely had tanks/healers gently caress up leading to a wipe, which is not a major problem but is a bit annoying.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:48
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Different people find different things "more complicated". For instance, I would probably put Ninja closer to the middle in terms of complexity than near the top, because while it does have the highest APM, its two burst windows (Trick with TCJ and Trick without TCJ) are more or less the same every time so once you get those down in muscle memory it's pretty easy. Ninja has basically nothing going on between burst windows and doesn't need to make rotational changes for fights (beyond occasionally delaying Trick Attack, but that just pushes back your rote burst phase, it doesn't change what you do in it) because it largely doesn't care about stuff like GCD alignment. On top of that Ninja has the strongest movement tools and ranged options among the melee jobs. Other people might consider Ninja the most complicated job because it hits 20 buttons in 15 seconds every 2 minutes and people will (silently) judge you if you drift Trick Attack.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:55
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Bard is one that clicks differently with different players. I see it as a few sand timers I need to flip over when they get low and then some pretty straightforward priority on buttons while waiting for those timers to come up again. But that's because those timers fit easily into the back of my head and I just *feel* when they're due. If someone can't do that (or can but hasn't learned it yet) then those ticking dots and buffs are going to be very stressful and distract from the other stuff you're doing. And I can understand that, Lost Blood Rage (special area ability, need to hit charge every 15 seconds for a big buff, charge has 10sec cooldown) gives me panic attacks because even though it's the same sort of thing it's not a timer length that I have internalized.
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Aug 18, 2021 23:56
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What we need is a GRAPH
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Aug 18, 2021 23:58
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Yeah, while you can look at the APM numbers on jobs at max level as one measure of difficulty, it really is going to be up to each person what they find more difficult: - If positionals are hard to remember or execute, melee jobs are going to be harder - If you have a hard time keeping an eye on both the battlefield and the party list, healing is going to be harder - If you have happy feet or anxiety about being the "leader", tanking is going to be harder - If you don't like dealing with RNG and procs, dancer/bard are going to infuriate you - If you need a job to be focused on a relatively short skill rotation, Summoner is going to be difficult And so on. I think it's more useful to try to sort out what kinds of jobs/archetypes people enjoy in other MMOs (if they have MMO experience); if they don't have MMO experience, try to find a few options based on aesthetic until they test the waters.
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Aug 19, 2021 00:07
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While we’re talking complexity and binds - What PLD skills don’t I need to have Extremely Available? I’m only 56 rn but I’m quickly running out of bar space and looking ahead, some of these buttons seem kinda redundant. Like there’s three “protect allies” buttons, Guard + Intervention + Divine Veil. Obviously I don’t wanna ignore any part of my toolkit but which one should i keep closest at hand? Veil seems like the easiest one to just slap during chaos, while Intervention and Guard require a target and some oath gauge.
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Aug 19, 2021 00:10
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Sixto Lezcano posted:While we’re talking complexity and binds - What PLD skills don’t I need to have Extremely Available? I’m only 56 rn but I’m quickly running out of bar space and looking ahead, some of these buttons seem kinda redundant. Like there’s three “protect allies” buttons, Guard + Intervention + Divine Veil. Obviously I don’t wanna ignore any part of my toolkit but which one should i keep closest at hand? Veil seems like the easiest one to just slap during chaos, while Intervention and Guard require a target and some oath gauge. Intervention and Cover are both highly situational; Intervention is just targeted damage mitigation on someone else (usually the other tank, but sometimes handy if someone in the party has a bunch of vuln stacks and a raidwide attack is imminent), Cover lets you fully take the blow for them if you are close to them (with the caveat that it will not function if you try to combine it with Hallowed Ground). One advanced use of Cover is that if you combo it with Arm's Length it will prevent the covered party from being knocked back as well as you; it used to be the only way to give bards knockback immunity. Divine Veil is great but keep in mind that it doesn't activate the group shields until a heal hits you (either self-cast via Clemency or from a healer) so you have to be a little more proactive about using it ahead of time. Shield Bash is largely redundant with Low Blow and you can keep that in an out of the way place; pretty much the only time you'd use it is in Palace of the Dead or Heaven on High since chain-stunning isn't really needed for crowd control anymore. Edit: Paladin's my main, so this might give you a sense what I find useful/convenient. I use controller. Main Hotbar, for my general single target combos/attacks, gap closer, and my magic spells. Flanked by the WXHB, which I use for my defensive cooldowns, sprint, and Hallowed.  Expanded Hold Hotbar, for AOE combo spam; tank stance, limit break, and provoke/shirk/interrupts.  Controller has so many slots available I do have redundant skills in a few places, like making sure I hit Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn regardless of whether I'm doing single target work or AOE trash spam. Tortolia fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 00:15
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That’s suuuuper helpful, thank you a bunch. Been wanting to transition to controller but could not decide what scheme I wanted for laying out the buttons.
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Aug 19, 2021 00:57
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The controller in this game is like evil magic it's so good, but also utterly incomprehensible to me. People have been doing ultimates on controller since day one but I can't make heads or tails of how to lay one out.
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Aug 19, 2021 01:04
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Tortolia posted:Yeah, while you can look at the APM numbers on jobs at max level as one measure of difficulty, it really is going to be up to each person what they find more difficult: This is spot on, yeah. BLM is by far the most difficult class for me to play, despite the low apm and responsibilities. Also, I find that if I'm not in the top third* of dps I'm not doing my job properly; conversely, all I need to do as a tank or healer to be satisfied with my performance is to hold aggro/heal respectively. If anyone cares, my personal and subjective list for classes I've played, from hardest to easiest goes: BLM SAM DRG NIN RDM DNC GNB WAR MCH WHM *Edit: sorry this is kinda arbitrary. If I drift cooldowns, mess up positional/combos, drop Enochian/dots/self buffs/etc, I feel like I'm failing as a dps. I have a really hard time ever feeling like I fail as a healer, comparably (exception of when I started running DR and spent most of my time on the floor) acumen fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 01:43
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Beef Hardcheese posted:For this in particular, keep an eye out for when your class quest asks for a high quality item and check out how much those items go for on the Market Board. I've made some extra gil (not a ton, mind you) making and selling extra HQ Horn Staffs (Goldsmith level 40 quest) or a stack of 20 HQ Electrum Ore (Mining level 45 quest). You don't have to actually craft/gather the items to fulfill the quest requirements, and sometimes people (like myself) would rather run over to the Market Board and just buy 10 HQ Marjoram (Botany level 15 quest) than spend the time doing the crafting/gathering. I'm already feeling that itch as a sprout, I can only imagine how someone who's been playing for years, is sitting on millions of gil, and only just finally getting around to grinding out the last couple of crafting classes might feel. Only problem is that I'm on the trial version, so I don't have access to the Market Board. Similarly, while I unlocked access to retainers through the MSQ, the trial version also prohibits you from actually hiring a retainer.
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Aug 19, 2021 01:47
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Navigating the layers in Western Coerthas is miserable. I've spent way longer finding this quest turn in than I will probably spend doing the ensuing quest.
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Aug 19, 2021 01:47
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I just picked up my first relic weapon quest as a warrior! I suppose this is the best weapon available in game (kinda like legendary weapons in Guild Wars 2)? Is the acquisition of the final form of the weapon time gated in any way and should I start working on it immediately or wait till I'm Lvl 80?
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Aug 19, 2021 02:08
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There's a relic weapon for each expansion, and while the level 80 relic weapon is currently the best weapon in the game, the level 50, 60, and 70 relic weapons exist entirely for cosmetics at this point. Relic weapons are timegated in that they're primarily grinds, but not timegated in the sense that you have to wait for weekly reset.
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Aug 19, 2021 02:10
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shoc77 posted:I just picked up my first relic weapon quest as a warrior! The first relic weapon, and indeed all of them except the one at level 80 (called the resistance weapon), is purely for glamour nowadays. There's one for each expansion, and they are the best weapons... at their level, in their final form. Each one of them is an absolutely horrendous grind that will take weeks or months to finish, but they are very cool-looking! You can work on them any time, but it'd probably be better to wait until you get to 80, where you'll have access to more resources. e: To be clear, they're all separate. You get a head start on the level 60 one if you finished the level 50 one, but it's not much, and they don't do that for the later weapons. You can just do the level 80 one if you want, or only the level 70 one, or whatever. They pace out the upgrades with the post-expansion patches, so the grind isn't as bad if you're doing it in real time (still pretty bad, though). Begemot fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 02:22
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Kwyndig posted:The controller in this game is like evil magic it's so good, but also utterly incomprehensible to me. People have been doing ultimates on controller since day one but I can't make heads or tails of how to lay one out. The best way to learn it is to either level a brand new job (ideally lower level to pace the new skill unlocks) with it so you don't have to try to overcome muscle memory of "I'm playing this job wrong", or just use it for fishing or something. It becomes comprehensible very quickly. The other thing if you try controller is experiment with standard versus legacy controls - legacy feels amazing for controller IMO since you move exactly where you push the stick like you're playing a third person action game. Regarding relic weapons: As has been mentioned, they're basically glamour pieces outside of certain timeframes for the current patch cycle. That said, the level 50 ARR relics have an early step (Zenith) that is actually very little work; you just need to source a particular crafted weapon, unlock and do two very easy 8 man trials, and run a few dungeons. You get a glowy Zenith weapon for glamour and a job specific title. It's actually doing anything beyond Zenith that is a hellgrind for ARR. Once you hit Stormblood and Shadowbringers, they actually start tying fairly significant new content zones/instances to relic weapons, so they're actually linked to unique content versus purely routing you into normal zones/instances the whole time.
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Aug 19, 2021 03:49
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Tortolia posted:I think it's more useful to try to sort out what kinds of jobs/archetypes people enjoy in other MMOs (if they have MMO experience); if they don't have MMO experience, try to find a few options based on aesthetic until they test the waters. I'm not sure how much that sort of preference tracks from game to game. In World of Warcraft I enjoy the melees more than the casters, and in FF14 I enjoy the casters more than the melee. In WoW Hunter is my least favorite class by a decent margin, in 14 I find Machinist to be my 3rd favorite DPS job (after RDM and BLM). I might be an outlier but for new players I'd suggest to not assume too much from experiences in other games. Definitely try a few different jobs! Re: complexity, I wouldn't look at APM as a complexity measure. It's a good measure of which jobs are fast if that's something you want (or want to avoid) but it doesn't really say anything about beyond that. The high APM jobs are often counted among the simpler options in their role, since they tend to have simple mechanics elsewhere to make up for the speed. Personal complexity ranking, DPS: - Summoner - Monk - Samurai - Black Mage - Ninja - Bard - Dragoon - Machinist - Red Mage - Dancer Tanks: - Gunbreaker - Paladin - Warrior - Dark Knight Healers: - Astrologian - Scholar - White Mage Blue Mage: - Blue Mage It's hard to rank outside of category. Tank is generally the easiest and most forgiving role to actually play but very public and can be frustrating in story content without foreknowledge. The tanks also differ very little in complexity, the minor skip from DRK to GNB is peanuts compared to the gulf between RDM and SMN. Healers are very simple outside of endgame, but in Extreme and later they have to deal with a completely different sort of complexity than anyone else which you may or may not find challenging. SMN is I think the most complicated job in the game. Their L80 rotation is long and precise, they have to manage pets, they have multiple resources, tight burst windows, a harsh death penalty, etc, etc. It's a lot to manage. BLM is a lot simpler to me, possibly because I'm used to dealing with limited movement resources which is their main challenge. Begemot posted:Each one of them is an absolutely horrendous grind that will take weeks or months to finish, but they are very cool-looking! You can work on them any time, but it'd probably be better to wait until you get to 80, where you'll have access to more resources. To expand on this, since the grinds are different: - L50 relics have a long and varied sequence of steps that usually ask you to do very specific L50 content. Do a dozen specific FATEs, hunt and kill specific dungeon mobs, meld a ton of low-level materia, etc. The first couple of steps unlock two new trials which can be neat but overall it's the grindiest and least interesting of the relics. If you really want a particular appearance and want to kill time by killing L50 things then go for it, but it wouldn't be my first relic nowadays. - L60 relics are the easiest to get by far since almost all the steps just require you to buy things with Tomestones of Poetics. You will eventually be swimming in Poetics, so feel free to start the chain and use it as a tomestone sink when you don't currently have any leveling gear you want. - L70 relics are tied to Eureka, which is a set of 4 old school EQ-style MMO throwback zones. Doing Eureka gives you some nice cosmetics and it has a cool capstone 48-man raid, but it's mostly there for the joy of murder. Feel free to check it out, but be advised that getting a relic involves several hours of FATE grinding which is not everyone's favorite activity. - L80 relics are tied to Bozja, which is very similar to Eureka in that it's 2 zones full of angry mobs and FATEs that you kill repeatedly. Bozja is more connected to the rest of the game than Eureka, notably you can enter at L71 and get normal XP as a way to level alts. It's also better designed, with a much better story, a bunch of cool raid boss fights per zone, and 3 puggable raids. Bozja is quite neat and definitely worth checking out! Getting the relic for your main while also leveling an alt job or two feels quite nice. For all of the relics I think it's important to, well, not kill yourself doing them. You can shotgun most of them in 3-4 days, but for your sanity and mine please don't. The L60 relics are the easiest and fastest by a very large margin, assuming you don't have anything else you want to spend Tomestones of Poetics on. Also, the primary reason to get any relic is because they look cool and shiny, so make sure to do your appearance research before going very far into any of the chains.
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Aug 19, 2021 03:55
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Anyone with an interest in doing a Zodiac should do it at least once, but just know what you're getting into. It takes a fair amount of time and resources to do. You'll need a bunch of poetics and have a lot of gil on hand to buy your way out of some of the steps.
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Aug 19, 2021 03:59
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For keyboard and mouse, do you guys prefer Legacy or Standard? I've been using Legacy but I'm wondering if I should change to standard and put strafe left/right on A and D like I had for WoW. Playing Marauder, loving the game so far 
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Aug 19, 2021 04:09
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I'm just so used to Standard movement controls from other MMOs that Legacy would screw me up, so I do standard and strafe instead of turn, yes.
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Aug 19, 2021 04:16
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Maxy Boy posted:For keyboard and mouse, do you guys prefer Legacy or Standard? Standard, I like being able to move the camera around without changing the direction I'm moving. Especially when flying, you can kinda go into the air and stay parallel to the ground, flat, which means you don't run into the ground or the invisible ceiling, you can just turn on auto-run and take cool screenshots.
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Aug 19, 2021 04:17
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It felt really weird for a day or so, but I'm used to Standard now. The only loss is the ability to walk backwards, doing that in my snowman mount always makes me giggle.
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Aug 19, 2021 04:33
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The one other thing to note about Zodiac ARR relics is completing a Zodiac weapon for any job unlocks an epilogue quest that gives you a kettle decoration for estate lawns and a monk glamour weapon that literally lets you hit enemies with perpetually boiling kettles. https://youtu.be/E32UaDHVOd8 FFXIV: it's silly and weird Edit: Lastly on the subject of relics - Square doesn't retroactively add relic weapons for expansion jobs to previous relic questlines. So, jobs that existed in ARR have relic weapons for all four chains. HW jobs have relic weapons for HW, SB and SHB. Red Mage and Samurai have relic weapons for SB and SHB, and Gunbreaker and Dancer can only get SHB resistance weapons. It's probably a safe bet that Reaper and Sage will only get relics when the 6.0 relic content starts dropping. Tortolia fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Aug 19, 2021 |
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Aug 19, 2021 04:42
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Maxy Boy posted:For keyboard and mouse, do you guys prefer Legacy or Standard?
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Aug 19, 2021 05:31
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If you do decide to do ARR relics, note that if you want replicas of the various stages for glam purposes you must either have the actual relic in your inventory or have handed it in to an NPC in Mor Dhona called Syndony. For expac relics after ARR you can dump the actual relic and still get the replicas whenever you want because they added achievement tracking of the various steps for each relic in Heavensward, but ARR is just built different so you will not be able to pick up replicas without the actual relic or having handed it in. Do not be like me and dump your ARR relics thinking they work like other relics and that you can just get the replicas whenever. I dumped two and managed to get one reinstated to me via GM but I'll need to redo the other and it's a pain.
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Aug 19, 2021 05:34
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I see, thanks for the explanation on the relic weapons. If I just want a cool looking weapon without too much grinding, it should be sufficient to just complete up till the 2nd/3rd stage of the relic weapon correct? I mean a cool looking weapon is nice but I don't intend to grind too much and end up hating and quitting the game due to it.
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Aug 19, 2021 05:52
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wheres the 60 weapons start? wouldve done those ages ago if I realized they were just tomestones. wait is that idyllshire and then azys la whatever?
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Aug 19, 2021 05:55
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Yeah, I think you can quit at any time once you like the look? I did one stage of one ARR relic weapon, then gave it to my retainer
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Aug 19, 2021 05:56
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