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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, the part that gets uncomfortable is that everybody who is actually in charge of Krakoa is giving off a fairly clear, if subtextual, vibe of "we are going to establish mutant supremacy and make non-mutants into a subjugated class; we look forward to doing to you as you did unto us". I mean, not really. They literally tell us what they're planning on doing and it's not that. And you can claim "secret ulterior motive", but it's just not there on the page and the fact that a good chunk of people immediately decided that was the plan and still haven't considered that maybe, no, the story the writers are telling isn't about how the allegorical fictional minority is just waiting for the first opportunity to enslave the
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Aug 20, 2021 02:42
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Adder Moray posted:I mean, not really. They literally tell us what they're planning on doing and it's not that. I mean, Magneto's speech while eating steak spells it out pretty clearly. quote:And you can claim "secret ulterior motive", but it's just not there on the page and the fact that a good chunk of people immediately decided that was the plan and still haven't considered that maybe, no, the story the writers are telling isn't about how the allegorical fictional minority is just waiting for the first opportunity to enslave the Really? I feel like "this figure's ideology is so obviously correct that we need to make sure we through some serious evil in there so nobody starts thinking this stuff is good" is a commonly-remarked-on failure mode of modern Marvel media.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:47
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"They will think we are doing one thing, but the truth is we are doing something altogether different." -Xavier
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Aug 20, 2021 02:51
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, the part that gets uncomfortable is that everybody who is actually in charge of Krakoa is giving off a fairly clear, if subtextual, vibe of "we are going to establish mutant supremacy and make non-mutants into a subjugated class; we look forward to doing to you as you did unto us". Magneto telling the representatives of the powers actively trying to genocide him AGAIN "You have new gods now" isn't a proclamation of mutant supremacy. It's a statement of power to the current power brokers. The whole Davos issue is about how Krakoa is beating the powers at their own game. No one is advocating subjugation of humanity (*insert Beast joke) . Prideful comments about being the evolutionary future isn't supremacy, especially when that's literally a plot point! Or another perspective: is T'Challa a Wakandan supremacist? What's the difference in the pride in being Wakandan vs Krakoan?
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Aug 20, 2021 02:55
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danbanana posted:Magneto telling the representatives of the powers actively trying to genocide him AGAIN "You have new gods now" isn't a proclamation of mutant supremacy. It's a statement of power to the current power brokers. The whole Davos issue is about how Krakoa is beating the powers at their own game. No one is advocating subjugation of humanity (*insert Beast joke) . Prideful comments about being the evolutionary future isn't supremacy, especially when that's literally a plot point! Wakanda generally isn't portrayed as actively working towards world domination. And when they do do lovely things like "we have a cure for cancer and you can't have it", they get called out on it, in-story and out-of-story. Honestly, people are reminding me again that a lot of the takes people have on Krakoa depend on how they choose to interpret the subtext behind the enigmatic or deceptive remarks made by characters like Xavier and Magneto, which is a very annoying mode of storytelling and a comparison to World of Warcraft that I didn't expect to be making.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:59
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Rand Brittain posted:Wakanda generally isn't portrayed as actively working towards world domination. And when they do do lovely things like "we have a cure for cancer and you can't have it", they get called out on it, in-story and out-of-story. Good point: Krakoa is giving their cancer cures to humanity. Pro-genocide move there!
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Aug 20, 2021 03:01
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Also there may or may not be something in the mirrors in Gotham/the DC universe in general that drives people to insanity.
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Aug 20, 2021 03:07
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Carol Danvers hung around Uncanny X-Men for a bit and was generally seen to be pitching in wherever it made sense, but she wasn't being used really in any other books at the time. Ditto, I suppose, the early days of Claremont's Wolverine in which Jessica Drew (also a bit shunted off to the margins at the time) was essentially a co-star. This was all perhaps just part and parcel of Claremont liking to keep the characters he liked in circulation.
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Aug 20, 2021 03:24
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Skwirl posted:Again, Genosha is worse than any real life genocide or terrorist act by a significant factor, and no one besides mutants even seemed to notice it. I understand that's largely just because of how comics work, but I also understand a later writer using that as gristle for a story. wasn't Genosha caused by Chucks' mutant sister? Not that that excuses any hypothetical inaction, but the constant mutant cries of "THEY TRIED TO KILL US!" start to look a little shakey when you look at how many mutant problems are caused by either mutants (several of which are now members of the Quiet council) or non-humans, whether those are aliens, "We're not actually mutants we're like Mutants 2.0", people with ambiguous mutant status (Hi Wanda!), sentient bacteria, etc
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Aug 20, 2021 03:26
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OnimaruXLR posted:wasn't Genosha caused by Chucks' mutant sister? Not his actual sister, not a mutant, and only happened because she got access to the Wild Sentinel tech that humans had designed for just such an eventuality. All they had to do was not build robots for the express purpose of exterminating mutants and Genosha wouldn't have happened.
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Aug 20, 2021 03:29
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All Magneto had to do was not threaten to exterminate humanity in order to blackmail the United Nations into giving him Genosha as a sovereign mutant nation, and then all he had to do once he had his sovereign mutant nation was not build an army, kidnap Xavier and crucify him as part of his plan to exterminate humanity with the mutant army he gathered, and then Wolverine wouldn't have gutted him leaving the country destabilized and leaderless. And then all anyone had to do was really hope that Xavier's powers in the womb wouldn't secretly give physical form to his anti-self that despite taking physical form inside the womb next to Xavier and possessing the same mutant powers as Xavier is neither his sister nor a mutant, and with any luck the Sentinels built by the Trasks while bankrolled by the Hellfire Club wouldn't achieve self-awareness, and be directed at Genosha when Cassandra Nova uses her not-mutant mutant powers to control a human into putting her into control of the Wild Sentinals, and if Magneto hadn't been infected by an immortal virus he wouldn't have tried to exterminate humanity for a third time, at which point Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Aug 20, 2021 |
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Aug 20, 2021 03:41
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Edge & Christian posted:All Magneto had to do was not threaten to exterminate humanity in order to blackmail the United Nations into giving him Genosha as a sovereign mutant nation, and then all he had to do once he had his sovereign mutant nation was not build an army, kidnap Xavier and crucify him as part of his plan to exterminate humanity with the mutant army he gathered, and then Wolverine wouldn't have gutted him leaving the country destabilized and leaderless. "This long chain of events is the same as just not building genocide bots."
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Aug 20, 2021 03:46
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These are all comic things I don’t like to think about.
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Aug 20, 2021 03:46
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Edge & Christian posted:All Magneto had to do was not threaten to exterminate humanity in order to blackmail the United Nations into giving him Genosha as a sovereign mutant nation, and then all he had to do once he had his sovereign mutant nation was not build an army, kidnap Xavier and crucify him as part of his plan to exterminate humanity with the mutant army he gathered, and then Wolverine wouldn't have gutted him leaving the country destabilized and leaderless. If I could erase any X-Men story from history, it would be Eve of Destruction, the final stabbing into the Caesar-esque death of Magneto's character. I will admit that Magneto himself is still a mutant supremacist, but even his actions and words in the Krakoa era do not correlate to that belief system and he has been appropriately used as the vocal cudgel of the island.
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Aug 20, 2021 03:47
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Adder Moray posted:"This long chain of events is the same as just not building genocide bots." I feel like a lot of these hot takes pick and choose things to get outraged about, which is once again why I call upon Speedball to curbstomp every single one of the New Mutants for not ONCE reaching out to check in on him during his Penance phase.
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Aug 20, 2021 03:51
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Man I fuckin' love comic books you guys
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Aug 20, 2021 03:54
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Edge & Christian posted:Is this a matter of who started the genocide attempts? It's a matter of don't build loving robots for the express purpose of genocide. Unrelated to this, y'all noticed that Wanda's estimated time of death was about 21 minutes before she arrived to have her conversation with Magneto?
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Aug 20, 2021 03:57
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Edge & Christian posted:Is this a matter of who started the genocide attempts? Magneto was trying to steal nuclear weapons to threaten humanity into giving him a sovereign nation whereupon he could build an army to eradicate humanity before the first Sentinel was built. And there's decades of stories with him after that covering the ramifications of his actions. Show me two stories (Kelly's is the obvious one,though it's garbage and requires his wife to be fridged) where humanity reflects on their pro-genocide agenda? I know I harp on this but the people who are cherry picking were the writers who decided those Magneto stories didn't count...
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Aug 20, 2021 03:58
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I like to think about the Morrison run almost every single day
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Aug 20, 2021 03:59
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How Wonderful! posted:I like to think about the Morrison run almost every single day There's a bad in canon explanation for Magneto in that, at least. There's no excuse for Eve of Destruction.
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Aug 20, 2021 04:01
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Adder Moray posted:It's a matter of don't build loving robots for the express purpose of genocide. danbanana posted:And there's decades of stories with him after that covering the ramifications of his actions. Show me two stories (Kelly's is the obvious one,though it's garbage and requires his wife to be fridged) where humanity reflects on their pro-genocide agenda?
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Aug 20, 2021 04:09
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Adder Moray posted:Unrelated to this, y'all noticed that Wanda's estimated time of death was about 21 minutes before she arrived to have her conversation with Magneto? ... huh, I had to go back and recheck the times but that's a pretty good catch. in SWORD it claims it's 3:17am when they meet and Trial of Magneto claims the time of death is 2:56am. I guess the Mystique theories just got a big point in their favor. 
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Aug 20, 2021 04:17
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Edge & Christian posted:
"No one wants to put in the time to redeem the Trasks like literally was done with Magneto" is not the argument you think it is. There's almost 60 years of X-Men stories literally based on mutants as oppressed peoples and it is frankly insane that the interpretation of that would ever be "But what about the humans!" Magneto doesn't need to be right for one to understand the actions taken by someone like him.
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Aug 20, 2021 04:42
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danbanana posted:"No one wants to put in the time to redeem the Trasks like literally was done with Magneto" is not the argument you think it is. I think there's been a good number of stories about human characters examining their own mutant prejudices, I just don't think they were particularly focused on Larry Trask or anyone directly involved with the creation of the Sentinels. There have been very few stories written about the philosophical underpinnings of Unus the Untouchable or Wildside or Forearm or Phantasia or Peepers, who at one point or another bought into Human Genocide. Because like Larry Trask, they're not very popular characters. Magneto has had a LOT of stories (good and bad) focused on him, because he's a popular character. I don't think this has anything to do with how lovely we're supposed to think any of these characters are or how unexamined and facile their inner lives are compared to Magneto. Magneto is a more interesting character in no small part because of the focus placed on him, but like deciding that I dunno, Spider-Man and all of his friends are low-key racist genocide apologists because Magneto and/or the Sentinel program doesn't come up very often in the thousands of Spider-Man comics where these characters go about their lives without discussing Magneto is wild. You can understand character's actions/motivations without endorsing them, and especially not without fist pumping and hoping they succeed.
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Aug 20, 2021 04:56
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Abroham Lincoln posted:... huh, I had to go back and recheck the times but that's a pretty good catch. Oh that is a pretty good catch. Wanda also wasn't wearing a flower when she showed up. Mystique and Exodus seem pretty likely to have teamed up for this. Codependent Poster fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Aug 20, 2021 |
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Aug 20, 2021 05:15
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Edge & Christian posted:All Magneto had to do was not threaten to exterminate humanity in order to blackmail the United Nations into giving him Genosha as a sovereign mutant nation, and then all he had to do once he had his sovereign mutant nation was not build an army, kidnap Xavier and crucify him as part of his plan to exterminate humanity with the mutant army he gathered, and then Wolverine wouldn't have gutted him leaving the country destabilized and leaderless. Maybe it's just me but it sounds like the self proclaimed leaders of mutantdom kinda lick recently used butthole
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Aug 20, 2021 06:05
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Way of X was interesting but the first issue promised a lot that it just couldnt deliver. I was ready for a comic all about just building a new society from scratch. I mean we got a tiny bit of that... :|
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Aug 20, 2021 06:34
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Skwirl posted:Again, Genosha is worse than any real life genocide or terrorist act by a significant factor, and no one besides mutants even seemed to notice it. I understand that's largely just because of how comics work, but I also understand a later writer using that as gristle for a story. Conversely, Genosha was destroyed by Cassandra Nova. Which is.....complicated. And the Legacy Virus was a mutant. And, until retcons, M-Day was a mutant. Sure there's a lot of racist humans that have individually hurt mutants, but the greatest threat to mutants has always been other mutants and their issues. And I'm going to put on my big boy guessing hat and say that mutants are going to gently caress up this run too.
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Aug 20, 2021 06:49
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Synthbuttrange posted:Way of X was interesting but the first issue promised a lot that it just couldnt deliver. I was ready for a comic all about just building a new society from scratch. I mean we got a tiny bit of that... :| hey, a uniting principle and culture for krakoa was established in way of x (by onslaught)
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Aug 20, 2021 06:58
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Gologle posted:Man I fuckin' love comic books you guys Hell, same.
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Aug 20, 2021 13:56
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TBF Blade does resent that no one else cares about the vampire menace.
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Aug 20, 2021 14:29
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omnibobb posted:Hell, same. Comics!!! YEeeeeeeeah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49sPDziuO84
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Aug 20, 2021 16:48
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Endless Mike posted:TBF Blade does resent that no one else cares about the vampire menace. And who’s also clearing out vampires? Wolverine. X-Men 1, Avengers 0
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Aug 20, 2021 18:15
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Quotey posted:And who’s also clearing out vampires? Wolverine. X-Men 1, Avengers 0 Blade's on the Avengers now and they had a big vampire arc.
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Aug 20, 2021 18:20
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Skwirl posted:Blade's on the Avengers now and they had a big vampire arc. He's the sheriff of vampires.
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Aug 20, 2021 18:25
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In terms of killing vampires in the 616 I think MI:13 has the lead though.
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Aug 20, 2021 18:30
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Skwirl posted:In terms of killing vampires in the 616 I think MI:13 has the lead though. Didn’t doctor strange kill them all at one point?
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Aug 20, 2021 19:57
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bobkatt013 posted:Didn’t doctor strange kill them all at one point? Well, it didn't stick obviously.
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Aug 20, 2021 20:04
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Skwirl posted:Well, it didn't stick obviously. Still counts! I mean otherwise you'd have to let Cassandra Nova off the hook for Genosha since they're bringing back dead Genoshans every day
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Aug 20, 2021 20:13
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My favorite addition to greater Marvel Lore from the new status quo is that vampires are the result of real vampires kicking the assholes out.Abroham Lincoln posted:... huh, I had to go back and recheck the times but that's a pretty good catch. And y'all doubted me when I pointed out she wasn't wearing a flower! Adder Moray fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Aug 20, 2021 |
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Aug 20, 2021 20:52
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