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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Occupying those sort of states is crippiling to a war economy and house rules exist in v2 games too? 'Some games of V2 have house rules' is doing a lot of lifting thereand doesn't really respond to the substance of my point; which is QoL improvements would be extremely welcome in Vicky 3. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 18:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Cortez won off of diplomacy too, didn't he? Bad diplomacy on the part of his enemies primarily, which swelled the size of the force fighting on his side while massively weakening his enemies. This is beyond the point. But I think I wasn't clear enough. Cortez was one of the lucky adventurers who survived and remembered. Hundreds of similar guys had limited success or have failed throughout history. Before modern states, a king could have afforded similar behaviour because their death and loss of their troops rarely meant an existential threat to most of the elites and communities but rather a change of management. In EU4 we talk about almost modern states. You never play as Cortez, you play as Spain. Historical Spain sent dudes to conquer New World but never conquered Portugal which was its historical rival for a long time. For Spanish elites gambles in the New World were safe: you won't lose more than you invest. Directly attacking Portugal on the continent might have meant the end of Spain. They could have successfully do that and become a hegemony but the risk was to high. I say it's a problem in videogame cause in a game you absolutely should conquer sweet developed Portugal land in Europe even if it is dangerous. Start another game if you don't succeed. If you're France you should definitely invade England even if it might be the end of you. Those are kind of things you can't solve in videogame format, I think.
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Aug 23, 2021 18:36
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ilitarist posted:This is beyond the point. But I think I wasn't clear enough. Cortez was one of the lucky adventurers who survived and remembered. Hundreds of similar guys had limited success or have failed throughout history. Before modern states, a king could have afforded similar behaviour because their death and loss of their troops rarely meant an existential threat to most of the elites and communities but rather a change of management. In EU4 we talk about almost modern states. You never play as Cortez, you play as Spain. Historical Spain sent dudes to conquer New World but never conquered Portugal which was its historical rival for a long time. For Spanish elites gambles in the New World were safe: you won't lose more than you invest. Directly attacking Portugal on the continent might have meant the end of Spain. They could have successfully do that and become a hegemony but the risk was to high. The closest thing to a solution would be some sort of "Learn to live with your mistakes" penalty, where abandoning your current game to restart with the same country would make your country a lot weaker on a restart. So like, you get a -30% manpower modifier or something for abandoning your playthrough before the first 50 years are over, a penalty that goes away the moment you have played through the first 50 years on any country. A quite heavy-handed approach, and even then it probably wouldn't completely solve the issue.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:07
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ilitarist posted:This is beyond the point. But I think I wasn't clear enough. Cortez was one of the lucky adventurers who survived and remembered. Hundreds of similar guys had limited success or have failed throughout history. Before modern states, a king could have afforded similar behaviour because their death and loss of their troops rarely meant an existential threat to most of the elites and communities but rather a change of management. In EU4 we talk about almost modern states. You never play as Cortez, you play as Spain. Historical Spain sent dudes to conquer New World but never conquered Portugal which was its historical rival for a long time. For Spanish elites gambles in the New World were safe: you won't lose more than you invest. Directly attacking Portugal on the continent might have meant the end of Spain. They could have successfully do that and become a hegemony but the risk was to high. this is Reino Unido erasure 
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Aug 23, 2021 19:18
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Aah, I see your point. Yeah, it makes sense that taking out the risk of potentially devastating gambles completely screws up the risk-reward calculations relative to a country's historical situation. You'd have to add disincentives to ahistorical behavior of that sort which were punishing enough that even a success wouldn't feel worth it, which would equally as ahistorical just in the opposite direction, AND super unsatisfying to the player. If you add a penalty for savescumming, approximately nobody will buy the game.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:19
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pointsofdata posted:almost? Hey, we still have egrets! (Less so Great Auks and Carolina Parakeets)
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Aug 23, 2021 19:20
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So will we have a asbinthe-addled and a mercury-poisoned power blocs?
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Aug 23, 2021 19:20
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Friend Commuter posted:If you add a penalty for savescumming, approximately nobody will buy the game.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:40
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It seems more to me that paradox has been gradually iterating and improving on their mechanics and I think Vicky 3 might be a bit of a watershed moment in how far they might be reconsidering EU4 style mechanics and we might see an EUV that radically departs from the previous formula. Things like "capacities" and so on I think when they do decide to look at an EU5 result in creating systems that model and abstract those sorts of concerns in more reasonable ways that don't feel punitive.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:52
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That was kinda my point. Like, you can only "solve the issue" by making the game excessively punitive, and the issue probably isn't even an issue to most people. Yeah, fair, I should've read your post as saying that was a bad idea.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:52
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I don’t see how you could add a penalty to savescunming without making Ironman mandatory Which would not end well
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Aug 23, 2021 19:54
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I bought victoria 2 (+dlc) after reading the acoup blog + vicky 3 dev blog. I'm currently 1870 Sweden. I'm doing pretty good but I feel like its mostly blind luck. Any tips on how to make informed decisions on trade / economy / factories? I look at the trade screen, and I've read the wiki on what these things all mean, but I don't really understand and I don't know how it should impact what I do. The closest I got was trying to build a factory, being unable to get coal to build the factory, learning via the internet that higher rank powers get first dibs, and then going to war in africa to get some coal. The next thing I did was see that tea was my #1 import, so I sphered a tea place by india, and I have no idea if that made any impact at all (tea was still my #1 import). Even for coal I would have no idea the world market was short of coal other than trying to build that factory. For factories I started off building the cheap ones in states w/ the raw inputs. That felt like a smart thing to do. But after that I really have no idea what I'm doing. "What is the next best factory to build?" is a question I don't even know how to approach answering. The internet says the AI sucks at building factories, but I don't know if I'm much better. At this point my only role is when the little white men are over half on the factory I click the upgrade button. It is not very satisfying. That said, I rather like the game.
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Aug 23, 2021 20:43
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You have the basics down, you just need to keep in mind value chains (coal making glass making liquor) in securing resources. Getting a source of tea, for example, isn't necessarily awful or anything but it's just a raw commodity that goes straight from the farmers to the consumers, and as such wont help you build up an industrial base the same way securing that west african coal would. Also specifically as Sweden/Scandinavia you'll always be struggling to get enough pops to actually fill the factories to where they have enough workers to compete on the global market against other industrial powers that have similar literacy/tech (UK, France, Germany, etc...) but far more pops to actually staff them.
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Aug 23, 2021 20:50
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:You have the basics down, you just need to keep in mind value chains (coal making glass making liquor) in securing resources. Getting a source of tea, for example, isn't necessarily awful or anything but it's just a raw commodity that goes straight from the farmers to the consumers, and as such wont help you build up an industrial base the same way securing that west african coal would. Also specifically as Sweden/Scandinavia you'll always be struggling to get enough pops to actually fill the factories to where they have enough workers to compete on the global market against other industrial powers that have similar literacy/tech (UK, France, Germany, etc...) but far more pops to actually staff them. The population thing is something I was wondering about. As far as I can tell, I can't load a save without first resigning. The interesting thing about resigning is realizing my population was like 1.5M (you're right, I'm Scandinavia not Sweden) while the people who had way higher industrial scores had 10's of millions of pops. That made me wonder if I was rushing industrialization by trying to chase scores of countries playing very different games from me. The other thing about getting the coal in africa is realizing my stockholm coal mine was producing say 4 coal while the african mine was producing 15 or 20 or something. The little calculation showed a province size multiplier of 4 on the african mine while 1 on stockholm. Is there a way to tell what that RGO multiplier is before you make the call to go to war / colonize? deltah fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 20:58
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Raenir Salazar posted:It'd be neat if an insurgency could be modeled as this parallel stateless thing. Like you have a province on the map and there's enemy troops consisting of rebels that exist there but they're "invisible" to the province owner until they click the "Uprise" button, and the province owner has their own mini game of collecting intel and organizing their occupation forces to try to sus out informants, arms caches, disrupt meetings, gatherings, secret hideouts and bases, etc. With some provinces being better for counter insurgency and some better for hiding out. Mountainous or heavily jungled/swampy/forested land, far away from the imperial core should be much easier to hide in; and as long as you keep getting supplies can keep going and gathering support. Are you familiar with the COIN (board game) series by any chance? Because this is very remniscent of their mechanics, albeit rather more granular. I've always thought video games could borrow a little from their modeling of asymmetrical conflicts.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:01
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deltah posted:The population thing is something I was wondering about. As far as I can tell, I can't load a save without first resigning. The interesting thing about resigning is realizing my population was like 1.5M (you're right, I'm Scandinavia not Sweden) while the people who had way higher industrial scores had 10's of millions of pops. That made me wonder if I was rushing industrialization by trying to chase scores of countries playing very different games from me. My recommendation as a scandi player is to try and conquer other civilized states so that you can create internal migration from somewhere like haiti to stockholm to boost your numbers. As for the RGO size, unfortunately there really isnt a good way to tell other than experience or console bullshit. It's still worth it to industrialze to a reasonable degree as scandi tho, because you won't become stronger by being an RGO exporter for other nations to industrialze off
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Aug 23, 2021 21:22
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deltah posted:The population thing is something I was wondering about. As far as I can tell, I can't load a save without first resigning. The interesting thing about resigning is realizing my population was like 1.5M (you're right, I'm Scandinavia not Sweden) while the people who had way higher industrial scores had 10's of millions of pops. That made me wonder if I was rushing industrialization by trying to chase scores of countries playing very different games from me. The key thing about industrialization is the whole point is to kind of bring you up to speed with the bigger countries (because it grows in efficiency as your technology improves), but pops are fundamentally your basic unit of "value" so more pops generally leads to having a stronger country. In general there are certain "tiers" of nations where you are much less likely to hit the top of the Great Power list without doing something to knock the other GPs down (like balkanizing them by liberating a bunch of territory in a great war), and in general if you're in one of those B-tier nations you tend to want to look towards colonization or invading people weaker than you to beef yourself up since your ability to compete directly within Europe is fairly limited. The thing about the province size multiplier on RGOs is that all it means is the RGO can employ more people - it does not mean it produces more goods per-capita. So the African mine was producing 5x as much coal but that's just because there were 5x as many people living and working there. So all you really need to pay attention to in a territory is the population and that will give you an idea of how valuable that province will be - RGO sizes are just hard-coded and typically correlate with how many people are already living somewhere at the game start.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:42
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https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1430530404344242183?s=19
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Aug 25, 2021 15:29
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the giant skull is the first challenge ottoman empire has to face, only be developing enough machinery and rail capacity to move are you free to wage war
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Aug 25, 2021 19:32
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Agean90 posted:the giant skull is the first challenge ottoman empire has to face, only be developing enough machinery and rail capacity to move are you free to wage war Please, my man of Europe, he's very sick.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:05
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Agean90 posted:the giant skull is the first challenge ottoman empire has to face, only be developing enough machinery and rail capacity to move are you free to wage war Finally, those darwinist bastards will get what's coming to them 
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Aug 25, 2021 20:19
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Pakled posted:Finally, those darwinist bastards will get what's coming to them I'm the HR Giger Scandinavia Anyway didn't one of the devs mention something about deficit spending or was that wishful thinking
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Aug 25, 2021 21:15
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The sheet there indicates both gold reserves and printing so you might be able to manipulate your currency
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Aug 25, 2021 21:43
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I hope there's some kind of consumer confidence or equivalent because there should be some means of delineating between nations like the US who become the world's reserve currency post-war and can basically print an unlimited amount of money without worrying about inflation and Yugoslavia/Greece/Argentina whose economies took a tumble trying to print their way out of debt without a strong enough economic foundation to support it.
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Aug 25, 2021 21:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:I hope there's some kind of consumer confidence or equivalent because there should be some means of delineating between nations like the US who become the world's reserve currency post-war and can basically print an unlimited amount of money without worrying about inflation and Yugoslavia/Greece/Argentina whose economies took a tumble trying to print their way out of debt without a strong enough economic foundation to support it. Hey if Victoria 3 incorporates modern monetary theory I might die of happiness.
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Aug 26, 2021 00:15
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Can't wait to institute full Georgism on my first run through.
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Aug 26, 2021 08:18
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean realistically they beat them because the US had no way to win this war as the taliban had local support and the US puppet government barely existed without the US to prop it up. But a 19th century Imperial power with the capabilities of the modern US would simply use the gross power disparity to completely annihilate a few tribes supporting the Taliban until the rest bent the knee. And if they refused, they would just keep killing them until there's so few left that their tribal enemies can sweep them away. Fire bomb villages to ash, nerve gas, tactical nuclear weapons, etc. Now, this would be completely immoral and evil, but it would work. Now, 19th century powers didn't have nerve gas or tactical nukes, but the power disparity is there and they have the will to use it. So, if the AI is in character, Belgium and co would be completely willing to kill millions in Africa in order to get what they want.
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Aug 26, 2021 14:44
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I mean the US tried indiscriminate bombing many times over the decades and it never worked out
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Aug 26, 2021 14:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the US tried indiscriminate bombing many times over the decades and it never worked out I'm talking about deliberate ethnic cleansing and genocide as state policy, like what the US did with the Native Americans, the British did the Australian Aborigines, the Belgians did in the Congo, the Germans did in East Africa, etc. Not sure how Victoria 3 is going to represent this, given how dark and relatively recent it is. They aren't going to brush over it like they do in EU4 though.
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Aug 26, 2021 15:27
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Charlz Guybon posted:I'm talking about deliberate ethnic cleansing and genocide as state policy, like what the US did with the Native Americans, the British did the Australian Aborigines, the Belgians did in the Congo, the Germans did in East Africa, etc. As long as it’s better than Vicky 2 where doing the trail of tears is a button and somehow makes Cherokee an accepted culture I’ll probably be ok with it.
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Aug 26, 2021 15:39
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https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1430923239950323722 https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-12-treasury.1488588/ Debt and taxes
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Aug 26, 2021 17:24
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Everything they've shown is really cool and I'm convinced it's going to be a very well made game...I'm just still unsure if that's going to translate into being intuitive/fun too.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:30
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Extremely awesome! It's almost exactly what I had wanted to do with a city building game to better represent how government spending actually works. No one saves up a lump sum to spend 20 million on that new bridge, they take on municipal debt for the project which is then paid off every year out of the budget at an affordable rate.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:34
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Anyone else getting some Master of Orion 3 vibes from this game so far? MOO3 had some really neat ideas despite it being a horrible mess.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:01
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Fister Roboto posted:Anyone else getting some Master of Orion 3 vibes from this game so far? MOO3 had some really neat ideas despite it being a horrible mess. Any strategy game with unorthodox and cool sounding ideas always gives me moo3 vibes...
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Aug 26, 2021 18:07
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I'm continually impressed by the quality of the UI. Especially coming from HOI4, even the custom UI for Old World Blues is really janky compared to this, and that mod made some improvements.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:07
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Sounds good. I like the idea of being able to take on extremely dangerous amounts of debt in order to industrialize quickly. Nice bit of risk vs reward in that your industrialization could fail and now you're just hosed.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:27
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I'm looking forward to the tariff details & if it has an impact on diplomacy. Gotta protect my luxury furniture factories. 
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Aug 26, 2021 20:14
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am I misremembering or did a lot of the insurgent military doctrine used today get developed after this era with Mao and Ho Chi Minh?
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Aug 27, 2021 02:14
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Iachek posted:Minting doesn't have an adverse effect as you're not able to adjust the minting level yourself. It is scaled automatically to a fraction of GDP, to the degree that the money supply is increased in relation to what's needed to prevent deflation but not enough to cause inflation. If we ever decide to add monetary policy settings though, this is exactly where it would hook in
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