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No sexy lady Shelob? I feel you’d have to be pretty wise as a giant spider to dress up as a vampire cosplayer.
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Aug 25, 2021 19:24
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TGG posted:Yeah, pretty sure Tulkas is the one true king of kicking rear end and taking names, he scares the poo poo out of Morgoth. Also where the hell is Orome, the wise yet still pretty powerful. Orome is out hunting.
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Aug 25, 2021 19:44
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When Gandalf takes the ring and casts it into Frodo's fire, the ring grows in size and reveals its writing. Is this because Sauron was innately hot, or just a property of heat expanding metal as it gets hotter?
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Aug 31, 2021 16:45
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Thunder Moose posted:When Gandalf takes the ring and casts it into Frodo's fire, the ring grows in size and reveals its writing. Sauron was a hot item, yes. You should have seen him during his Annatar days. Ziggy Stardust eat your heart out.
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Aug 31, 2021 16:53
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There needed to be some explicit evidence for it being the one ring but in the hobbit it was described as plain so … magic elf letters solve the issue This shows up again in the doors of Moria and also I guess the moon map in the hobbit
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Aug 31, 2021 16:56
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I bet if you looked into fearie tale history before Lotr you could find example of magic letters on rings Tolkien loved the old poo poo
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Aug 31, 2021 16:57
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Thunder Moose posted:When Gandalf takes the ring and casts it into Frodo's fire, the ring grows in size and reveals its writing. The expansion from normal metal expanding in hear wouldn't be visible like that. Presumably the challenge of the fire "wakes up" the ring in some fashion and makes it exert power to resist the fire's heat. The ring is *manifesting*. That said textually there are passages where the text of the ring was visible while sauron wore it, as his hands were hot. I think the writing Gandalf finds written by isildur.
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Aug 31, 2021 16:59
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It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain.
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Aug 31, 2021 17:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The expansion from normal metal expanding in hear wouldn't be visible like that. Presumably the challenge of the fire "wakes up" the ring in some fashion and makes it exert power to resist the fire's heat. The ring is *manifesting*. Yeah, Sauron was hot enough that the Ring script was visible when Isildur picked it up, and he gave his hand a nasty burn as well. efb
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Aug 31, 2021 17:04
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The ring and Sauron have some kind of link to fire that is never really explained in detail. He doesn’t seem to have been a fire spirit the way some of the others like Arien or the balrogs are, but he’s all toasty, he torched GG, lives by a volcano, institutes sacrificial pyres in Numenor, his spirit appears as an eye rimmed with fire, the ring came out of the fire and goes back into it, fire reveals its spell, it appears itself to be a wheel of fire to those who can see. Shits on fire, yo
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Aug 31, 2021 17:23
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euphronius posted:It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain. I always read this as Gil-Galad dying in the most metal way possible: having his face melted off by Satan.
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Aug 31, 2021 17:33
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OPAONI posted:I always read this as Gil-Galad dying in the most metal way possible: having his face melted off by Satan. Pretty sure this is exactly what JRRT was going for. Or if not I have no idea what else he meant. Maybe the ol’ spicy keychain
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Aug 31, 2021 18:27
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I don’t know is Satan is a good analogy for Sauron Mostly because the idea of Satan is so fuzzy and strange
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Aug 31, 2021 18:30
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If Sauron was Satan what would that make Morgoth?
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Aug 31, 2021 18:37
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Satan has a really ill defined place and role in any Christian theogony . The whole idea is kind of at odds with everything else All of the Tolkien gods - if you think the Sil is accurate - are well defined
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Aug 31, 2021 18:40
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FBS posted:If Sauron was Satan what would that make Morgoth? Diablo
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Aug 31, 2021 18:40
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euphronius posted:I bet if you looked into fearie tale history before Lotr you could find example of magic letters on rings Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit has a whole section on the various Rings in myth and history and what influence they might have had on Tolkien. Plato and Chrétien and Fénelon etc — too much to quote from my ebook
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Aug 31, 2021 18:49
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Satan Junior
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Aug 31, 2021 19:09
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skasion posted:The ring and Sauron have some kind of link to fire that is never really explained in detail. He doesn’t seem to have been a fire spirit the way some of the others like Arien or the balrogs are, but he’s all toasty, he torched GG, lives by a volcano, institutes sacrificial pyres in Numenor, his spirit appears as an eye rimmed with fire, the ring came out of the fire and goes back into it, fire reveals its spell, it appears itself to be a wheel of fire to those who can see. Shits on fire, yo He may just have made himself extra toasty for battle; he doesn't seem to have burned through chairs and whatnot in Numenor. But yeah. And it's extra odd because he has non-fire-related aspects too - Lord of Werewolves and the whole necromancy thing. Bongo Bill posted:Satan Junior Lt Satan.
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Aug 31, 2021 19:29
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Mt doom was a place sacred to Morgoth . It was a magical place . Gandalf was also a big fire dude which is interesting to compare
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Aug 31, 2021 19:31
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Runcible Cat posted:He may just have made himself extra toasty for battle; he doesn't seem to have burned through chairs and whatnot in Numenor. But yeah. And it's extra odd because he has non-fire-related aspects too - Lord of Werewolves and the whole necromancy thing. He was also a Maia of Aulë the Smith before his fall, and Smith > Forges > Fiery Heat is a pretty straight symbolic path.
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Aug 31, 2021 19:41
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Sauron at the siege of Mordor was broken version after surviving the cataclysm of numenor
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Aug 31, 2021 19:51
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Runcible Cat posted:He may just have made himself extra toasty for battle; He just put on a holocaust cloak. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmVkNHFfSi0&t=69s
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Aug 31, 2021 19:54
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Runcible Cat posted:He may just have made himself extra toasty for battle; he doesn't seem to have burned through chairs and whatnot in Numenor. But yeah. And it's extra odd because he has non-fire-related aspects too - Lord of Werewolves and the whole necromancy thing. I guess the earlier Sauron/Thu/Necromancer figure has no particular association with fire until he takes it on as part of LOTR’s central motif of the quest for the mountain of fire. Until Tolkien gets to that point the character seems to be more of a standard spooky darkness wizard type.
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Aug 31, 2021 20:24
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That development of Sauron in lotr predated Tolkien putting LOTR and his larger “legendarium” together I think so . It may not have a large thought out reason
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Aug 31, 2021 20:25
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euphronius posted:Sauron at the siege of Mordor was broken version after surviving the cataclysm of numenor Yeah, that's true. If his natural form was "on loving fire" he may have been able to stay shape-changed away from that until Numenor fell on him and wrecked that ability.
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Aug 31, 2021 20:41
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Water was Sauron's one weakness.
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Aug 31, 2021 21:41
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Extreme heat and cold were both associated with Morgoth, and Sauron spent a lot of the second and third age eiher propounding the cult of Morgoth or trying to set himself up in Morgoth's place. So that might be a reason for the switch.
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Aug 31, 2021 21:44
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Runcible Cat posted:Yeah, that's true. If his natural form was "on loving fire" he may have been able to stay shape-changed away from that until Numenor fell on him and wrecked that ability. I dont know if "natural form" makes sense. He was stuck in that form at least. A similar thing happens to Morgoth who Sauron is in many ways. I guess being similar to Balrogs makes sense both in LOTR as its own thing and also as part of the larger story.
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Aug 31, 2021 21:47
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In the fall of Numenor he lost the ability to make himself hot in one way, so he decided to make himself hot in a different way.
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Aug 31, 2021 21:49
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I don't have the Silmarillion to hand, but wouldn't it be inaccurate to say that a Vala or Maia had any "natural" form? Aren't they described as selecting forms that they find pleasing, but also wandering without form if they desire?
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Aug 31, 2021 22:08
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Okay now explain how this all related to Tevildo, Prince of Cats.
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Aug 31, 2021 22:09
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sweet geek swag posted:Okay now explain how this all related to Tevildo, Prince of Cats. He's got "evil" right in the name, that's all you need to know.
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Aug 31, 2021 22:11
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Pham Nuwen posted:I don't have the Silmarillion to hand, but wouldn't it be inaccurate to say that a Vala or Maia had any "natural" form? Aren't they described as selecting forms that they find pleasing, but also wandering without form if they desire? Tolkien repeatedly uses the metaphor of clothing for the shapes of the Ainur. They don’t naturally have physical form, but can put on more or less whatever shape they want. When they take shape it’s usually humanoid, but doesn’t have to be. Their “naked” state is disembodiment.
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Aug 31, 2021 22:45
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Which dovetails nicely into my bill the pony theory. Horses don't find their way home through wight infested lands, c'mon.
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Aug 31, 2021 22:55
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Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. ‘There is still hope,’ he said. ‘You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.’
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Aug 31, 2021 22:59
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The LOTR does not talk about Maiar and Ainur so I hesitate to bring them up when discussion Sauron and how he is . In Lotr Sauron is mentioned as a servant of Morgoth. And he’s obviously a supernatural spirit besides that. Here is another passage on the point But it was not so. Sauron was indeed caught in the wreck of Númenor, so that the bodily form in which he long had walked perished; but he fled back to Middle-earth, a spirit of hatred borne upon a dark wind. He was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was through terror alone. He re-entered Mordor, and hid there for a time in silence. But his anger was great when he learned that Elendil, whom he most hated, had escaped him, and was now ordering a realm upon his borders. Therefore, after a time he made war upon the Exiles, before they should take root. Orodruin burst once more into flame, and was named anew in Gondor Amon Amarth, Mount Doom. But Sauron struck too soon, before his own power was rebuilt, whereas the power of Gil-galad had increased in his absence; and in the Last Alliance that was made against him Sauron was overthrown and the One Ring was taken from him.4 So ended the Second Age. My idea is his flame and heat powers come from or inspired by the Morgoth and Morgoth’s shrine in Mt Doom. After he his killed by Elendil et al and loses the Ring, he can’t even do that anymore except in the spirit realm
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Aug 31, 2021 23:09
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I feel like sauron is stripped down to his bare essentials after the fall of numenor, only the most fundamental parts of him are left. He can't be sexy anymore, he can't manipulate except through brute force hes left with the fire and terror at the heart of him. More so again after his defeat and loss of the ring.
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Sep 1, 2021 22:50
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sweet geek swag posted:Okay now explain how this all related to Tevildo, Prince of Cats. He's hot, meow
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Sep 2, 2021 06:08
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Southpaugh posted:I feel like sauron is stripped down to his bare essentials after the fall of numenor, only the most fundamental parts of him are left. He can't be sexy anymore, he can't manipulate except through brute force hes left with the fire and terror at the heart of him. More so again after his defeat and loss of the ring. Not so sure about the manipulation part, he manipulated Saruman and Denethor pretty good imo
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Sep 2, 2021 18:57
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