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Captain Foo)
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Jazerus posted:yes it is. cull all of the white items above 68 unless they are a rare base after the initial generation so that they only impact server performance once instead of a billion times per second. if someone wants a white item they can scour a rare. there are a few other things that could be done with no potential for destroying the game or whatever the gently caress. make wisdom scrolls drop at 10% rate but in 10-stacks. stuff that players at semi-strict filter or above will literally never notice but the servers sure will. Hell do that with almost all currency below something like a chaos in value.
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Aug 26, 2021 16:52
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The game would be improved in many ways if they just got rid of the garbage affixes that nobody wants, like stun/block recovery or thorns.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:02
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Fister Roboto posted:The game would be improved in many ways if they just got rid of the garbage affixes that nobody wants, like stun/block recovery or thorns. And nerf Elentor's Cactuar build? Pffft. Light Radius needs to stay in the game so I can continue to make fun of OP items that don't have it.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:07
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Heist speed changes in hard, cold numbers: Results: Agility Door 87% Increased: 5.566 sec 0% Increased: 8.433 sec Difference: 2.867 sec - 33% increase Agility Hallway 87% Increased: 3.749 sec 0% Increased: 4.950 sec Difference: 1.201 sec - 25% increase Deception 89% Increased: 5.933 sec 0% Increased: 6.266 sec Difference: 0.333 sec - 6% increase Lockpicking 82% Increased: 3.766 sec 0% Increased: 4.499 sec Difference: 0.733 sec - 17% increase Demolition 85% Increased: 4.533 sec 0% Increased: 6.350 sec Difference: 1.817 sec - 29% increase Perception 90% Increased: 2.947 sec 0% Increased: 3.866 sec Difference: 0.919 sec - 24% increase Counter-Thaumaturgy 80% Increased: 3.583 sec 0% Increased: 4.883 sec Difference: 1.3 sec - 26% increase Trap Disarmament 70% Increased: 3.000 sec 0% Increased: 3.683 sec Difference: 0.683 sec - 19% increase Brute Force 86% Increased: 2.016 sec 0% Increased: 2.049 sec Difference: 0.033 sec - 2% increase Engineering 89% Increased: 1.666 sec 0% Increased: 2.799 sec Difference: 1.133 sec - 59% increase
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Aug 26, 2021 17:11
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note that the differences calculated by that reddit post give percentage change in job time which is not the same as job speed. for instance the agility door change is a 51.5% job speed increase, so still not the same as the listed stat but better than it looks.
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Aug 26, 2021 17:39
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totalnewbie posted:And yeah, phasing is basically mandatory. Or shield charge, the strength-based phasing equivalent 
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Aug 26, 2021 17:42
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shield charge is clunky as hell though
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Aug 26, 2021 17:48
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Jazerus posted:yes it is. cull all of the white items above 68 unless they are a rare base after the initial generation so that they only impact server performance once instead of a billion times per second. if someone wants a white item they can scour a rare. there are a few other things that could be done with no potential for destroying the game or whatever the gently caress. make wisdom scrolls drop at 10% rate but in 10-stacks. stuff that players at semi-strict filter or above will literally never notice but the servers sure will. What if someone wants to chance something? Not that anyone should ever waste their time doing that, but it is a legitimate use of white items.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:07
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scour + chance, or let chance orbs work on white/blue rarity. So many possible solutions!
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Aug 26, 2021 18:21
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dyzzy posted:note that the differences calculated by that reddit post give percentage change in job time which is not the same as job speed. for instance the agility door change is a 51.5% job speed increase, so still not the same as the listed stat but better than it looks. in my defense, its from a youtube video showing the differences back to back
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Aug 26, 2021 18:26
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Syle187 posted:What if someone wants to chance something? Not that anyone should ever waste their time doing that, but it is a legitimate use of white items. fine, leather belts can still drop white
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Aug 26, 2021 18:27
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Clockwerk posted:scour + chance, or let chance orbs work on white/blue rarity. So many possible solutions! So what, a chance now works like an alt? Or you just want to chance a magic item that you have to pick up and identify (adding extra clicks) and have it not change the item at all unless you hit the 1/1000 or w/e to change it to a unique? That doesn't make sense because the player needs some sort of feedback that the orb actually did something. Alching a white base is also a legit use of white items, and is something you might do in early maps. One of the coolest parts of PoE to me back when I started playing a thousand years ago was that you could pick up a white item and make something useful out of it. Just because we've all played the game for thousands of hours and know exactly what to do and what not to do doesn't mean this stuff shouldn't exist. marie_eh fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 18:30
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hawowanlawow posted:shield charge is clunky as hell though This is completely true. It takes some real getting used to, I wasn't comfortable with it until I made it through acts, and even now I screw it up sometimes. But I love it, it's such a great way to zip around, and it feels very satisfying.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:30
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I think the "but what about" responses to things like "nuke white items in maps" shows not that things don't have workarounds or other solutions, but that it starts pointing out how it's not as simple as "just nuke white items in maps". All those cases would have be evaluated and probably have other changes made. It'd start to add up. And obviously something would be forgotten or not work right.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:31
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I use Cyclone for most things I'd use Shield Charge for in the past, which usually means proccing Fortify, and occasionally applying a curse. This is a net loss the map speed most of the time since shield charge does facilitate faster movement, but Cyclone has some nice implicit properties, especially when it comes to killing bosses that I feel make it favorable if you are willing to take the hit on speed and traverse space with flame dash and friends. Shield charge is indeed way clunky and I've developed a distaste for it.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:36
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my condolences to anyone who missed out on brightbeak shield charge before the "changes"
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Aug 26, 2021 18:38
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I know one cares but they’ve said they have ideas for item bloat in poe2 Probably won’t happen
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Aug 26, 2021 18:40
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White 6 sockets make me tons of money every league. Again, it's not like there is no potential solution, but as you change more and more things to accommodate these issues you get further and further away from the core item philosophy that ggg has. I suspect that lots of players just disagree with the philosophy itself but very few of the suggestions I'm seeing seem informed by a real alternative way of thinking about items in an arpg and are instead just reactive to perceived problems without acknowledging the new problems they'd introduce.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:40
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Say they made the change people were asking for, and all/most rares that dropped were at least somewhat good, wouldn't everyone's reference point for what is a trash rare immediately rise to accommodate? I don't see it helping with people's actual issues with the loot system.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:48
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Syle187 posted:So what, a chance now works like an alt? Or you just want to chance a magic item that you have to pick up and identify (adding extra clicks) and have it not change the item at all unless you hit the 1/1000 or w/e to change it to a unique? That doesn't make sense because the player needs some sort of feedback that the orb actually did something. So why is having people just scour stuff not an option, again? pork never goes bad posted:White 6 sockets make me tons of money every league. Again, it's not like there is no potential solution, but as you change more and more things to accommodate these issues you get further and further away from the core item philosophy that ggg has. I suspect that lots of players just disagree with the philosophy itself but very few of the suggestions I'm seeing seem informed by a real alternative way of thinking about items in an arpg and are instead just reactive to perceived problems without acknowledging the new problems they'd introduce. Maybe if their core philosophy breaks the servers it's not a workable core for their game.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:48
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Say they made the change people were asking for, and all/most rares that dropped were at least somewhat good, wouldn't everyone's reference point for what is a trash rare immediately rise to accommodate? I don't see it helping with people's actual issues with the loot system. It's impossible it wont happen. There needs to be major changes to how items roll that would also change the game. The mod pool is so large. And since everyone might want something different it's a slipperly slope from poe jank poe items into d3 items where only 5-6 stats matter.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:50
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12 rats tied together posted:my condolences to anyone who missed out on brightbeak shield charge before the "changes" remember when leap slam sucked? god I love leap slam
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Aug 26, 2021 18:51
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12 rats tied together posted:my condolences to anyone who missed out on brightbeak shield charge before the "changes" Brightbeak shield charge vaal spark increased item quantity stacking dried lake farming 
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Aug 26, 2021 18:52
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:So why is having people just scour stuff not an option, again? Because scours are actually pretty uncommon in the base game and have a lot of other uses besides combining them with chance orbs. And now every time you want to chance an item it actually takes 5 chance orbs (1 + 4 vendor to scour). If you want to have an item like a chance orb in the game it needs to make some sort of sense to actually use it. marie_eh fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 18:55
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I chance strongboxes
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Aug 26, 2021 18:57
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Say they made the change people were asking for, and all/most rares that dropped were at least somewhat good, wouldn't everyone's reference point for what is a trash rare immediately rise to accommodate? I don't see it helping with people's actual issues with the loot system. My main complaints are about the incredibly pointless affixes like light radius, and things like why tier 12 affixes are even a possibility on high level items. I'm fine with some gambling, but making it a literal one in a million chance to get an even usable item from things like chaos spamming or even two-slot resonator fossil crafting just means that crafting your own gear is almost pointless for anyone but the super die hards.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:01
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pork never goes bad posted:White 6 sockets make me tons of money every league. Again, it's not like there is no potential solution, but as you change more and more things to accommodate these issues you get further and further away from the core item philosophy that ggg has. I suspect that lots of players just disaree with the philosophy itself but very few of the suggestions I'm seeing seem informed by a real alternative way of thinking about items in an arpg and are instead just reactive to perceived problems without acknowledging the new problems they'd introduce. 6 sockets could still drop. there's no need to change the underlying item generation, because generating the items in the first place is a small fraction of the total server/client/network load imposed by an item existing, at least if some of the previous posts in this thread are correct. generate the item, if it is interesting in literally any way then drop it otherwise delete it from the game state before it is communicated to the player. you can keep all of the underlying math the same and just get rid of the items that absolutely nobody will ever pick up, ever. i'm not trying to come up with some "real alternative way of thinking" here but rather pointing out that there is an awful lot of expensive processing going on, that GGG has to pay for instead of being able to pay for a larger team to work on the game, that is entirely unnecessary. your definition of which items are unnecessary might vary from mine but i find it hard to believe that everyone can't agree that some subset of the items dropped do not need to drop, or could drop in alternate ways (stacked minor currencies, etc.) that are more performant. GGG is, historically, absurdly wasteful when it comes to basic computing complexity stuff and the game would be better if they spent more time on it both for client and server. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 19:02
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No Safe Word posted:My main complaints are about the incredibly pointless affixes like light radius, and things like why tier 12 affixes are even a possibility on high level items. I'm fine with some gambling, but making it a literal one in a million chance to get an even usable item from things like chaos spamming or even two-slot resonator fossil crafting just means that crafting your own gear is almost pointless for anyone but the super die hards. The multiple tiers of affixes is one of the issues multiplying the already crazy amount of mods to an even more insane number. If they remove the tiers you might see mirror tier items drop though.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:04
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re: "just don't drop white items" -- Yeah man, it's a thing that's easy to get wrong due to a lot of corner cases, so no way they're loving with drop tables in the middle of a league. One of the quickest ways to speedrun your way to Reddit pitchforks. re: bad mods like light radius, stun/block recovery, etc. -- I truly believe this is one of those "you can't have good mods without having some bad mods as well". I think this came from a quote from Mark Rosewater, and we all know what a huge fan of Magic CW is, so that notion is swimming in his brain at least somewhere. It doesn't help, however, that they just keep adding mods (and more tiers of existing mods) over time which further dilutes an already bloated pool. Tenzarin posted:The multiple tiers of affixes is one of the issues multiplying the already crazy amount of mods to an even more insane number. If they remove the tiers you might see mirror tier items drop though. Don't remove tiers, but -- just spitballing here -- maybe make "shiny rares" that look different and can be picked up by loot filters, which are otherwise normal rares except it guarantees one T1 mod. Given how many mods there are, I still don't know if those are worth picking up, but it's a start. (Also that mod will inevitably be stun recovery.)
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Aug 26, 2021 19:30
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I think there is a solution to the mod pool problem, if every 20 item levels the item will no longer roll the lowest tier of base affix available on a multi-tier affix like resist/life/defense/added damage/% damage/so on. Imagine crafting a ilvl80 armor and the life can roll between 39-89 instead of 9-89 or resists 35-48% instead of 11-48% and more weapons would be usable with a narrower range of damage affixes. Would also open a new market for ilvl100 bases from div cards. I also think they should cull a lot of the useless affixes hardly anyone wants like resists on weapons and local reduced attribute requirements.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:32
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Go full diagaea, slap your equipment into the map device to unlock great mods or, if you die, lose the item.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:36
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External Organs posted:Go full diagaea, slap your equipment into the map device to unlock great mods or, if you die, lose the item. if it wasnt PoE were talking about, this would be something to consider. but losing your gear to offscreen oneshots or crashes, nope thanks.
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Aug 26, 2021 19:42
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Yolomon Wayne posted:if it wasnt PoE were talking about, this would be something to consider. Chris Wilson cackles from his Hobbit Hideout!! "Very well...I will give them good rares...and death..."
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Aug 26, 2021 19:43
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External Organs posted:Go full diagaea, slap your equipment into the map device to unlock great mods or, if you die, lose the item. You don't lose your item when you die in item world, you just have to reload your save. Or is this something new with disgaea 6? I kinda wanna replay disgaea 5 again because I'M MOOOOOVVVVVING SOOOO FAR AWAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SfFg3yRkmc
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Aug 26, 2021 19:54
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euphronius posted:I know one cares but they’ve said they have ideas for item bloat in poe2 Aren't they doing the "roll 10x, take the best" thing for everything in PoE2? Where-as right now, they're using sporadically, mainly in some of the new league stuff, to test it. I dunno, I think we'll probably see that, or something close, as a global system for PoE2. facepalmolive posted:re: bad mods like light radius, stun/block recovery, etc. -- I truly believe this is one of those "you can't have good mods without having some bad mods as well". Heh, that made me think of the old Ivory Tower Design garbage. There will always be some better than others, or maybe more accurate - more situational than others. But straight up garbage stats that are either pointless or unviable (as defined by dude in a different PoE, Pillars of Eternity, on a GDC from years back, who says you can't "beat" the game with those mods) should be nuked. Some of those are definitely "traps", aka Ivory Tower. Thorns and light radius come to mind. Some arpgs support good thorn builds. PoE does not. Where that "viable" line is in relation to "beat the game" versus "well that's aspirational content" is really vague here though. I don't think GGG even knows. Fuzzy Mammal posted:Say they made the change people were asking for, and all/most rares that dropped were at least somewhat good, wouldn't everyone's reference point for what is a trash rare immediately rise to accommodate? I don't see it helping with people's actual issues with the loot system. Personally, and while I know there's a lot the same way, I'm not going to try to say "most players" or whatever nonsense - it's that 99% of rares that drop is *garbage*. The game has so many players, that you're always better just buying it off trade instead of trying to farm a base and craft it yourself, and I don't like playing the trade website. It's the same reason D3's AH sucked. Really, balancing around a global market, esp when the game is this popular, really fucks drop rates. Even a small increase, and now that item is a 5c unique. Give me SSF-with-insanely-better-drop-rates-and-deterministic-crafting thanks.
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Aug 26, 2021 20:07
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xZAOx posted:Heh, that made me think of the old Ivory Tower Design garbage. There will always be some better than others, or maybe more accurate - more situational than others. But straight up garbage stats that are either pointless or unviable (as defined by dude in a different PoE, Pillars of Eternity, on a GDC from years back, who says you can't "beat" the game with those mods) should be nuked. Now I want to know what items are considered bad in poe1/2. Pretty much all weapons can be upgraded to mythical in poe2, even though mythical weapons are already overkill for the game. I don't recall the weapon upgrade system in poe1 because I always used buff rear end wizards summoning their spears of death to melee everything down.
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Aug 26, 2021 20:15
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Maybe if their core philosophy breaks the servers it's not a workable core for their game. I don't think anyone disagrees with this. Even GGG - they want to find a way to implement their philosophy that doesn't break the servers. Jazerus posted:i'm not trying to come up with some "real alternative way of thinking" here but rather pointing out that there is an awful lot of expensive processing going on, that GGG has to pay for instead of being able to pay for a larger team to work on the game, that is entirely unnecessary. your definition of which items are unnecessary might vary from mine but i find it hard to believe that everyone can't agree that some subset of the items dropped do not need to drop, or could drop in alternate ways (stacked minor currencies, etc.) that are more performant. GGG is, historically, absurdly wasteful when it comes to basic computing complexity stuff and the game would be better if they spent more time on it both for client and server. This sort of thing has been pointed out so often that it's not very interesting at this point - we all know that the current state isn't great. We all know that it's bad both for accessibility reasons and for performance reasons. Many people also think it's based on a fundamentally flawed philosophy. It's that last bit that I'm not sure about, and I wish more people would talk about items more abstractly and articulate a "real alternative way of thinking" here that isn't just a surface level proposal to fix a part of the real problem.
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Aug 26, 2021 20:54
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pork never goes bad posted:This sort of thing has been pointed out so often that it's not very interesting at this point - we all know that the current state isn't great. We all know that it's bad both for accessibility reasons and for performance reasons. Many people also think it's based on a fundamentally flawed philosophy. It's that last bit that I'm not sure about, and I wish more people would talk about items more abstractly and articulate a "real alternative way of thinking" here that isn't just a surface level proposal to fix a part of the real problem. i hadn't thought about the performance of item drops before or seen people talking about it much in the thread here. the fact that the current state of things isn't great, yes, obviously it comes up a lot, but it's usually from an accessibility/aesthetic point of view rather than performance. i don't read reddit so what is discussed here is all i have to go by, but i'm sorry my post was so terribly uninteresting to you.
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Aug 26, 2021 21:00
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Jazerus posted:i hadn't thought about the performance of item drops before or seen people talking about it much in the thread here. the fact that the current state of things isn't great, yes, obviously it comes up a lot, but it's usually from an accessibility/aesthetic point of view rather than performance. i don't read reddit so what is discussed here is all i have to go by, but i'm sorry my post was so terribly uninteresting to you. didn't mean to sound too harsh re: the uninteresting comment. sorry for any offense caused. that said, the whole "hit alt and the game crashes" thing has been memed and discussed for years, including here on SA. the first time i remember talking about item drops and performance impact was the cyclone reverse knockback era back in, what, breach league? it also came up in thread a lot in legion, delirium, and Elentor had a lot to say here in ritual and ultimatum when she was doing some reverse engineering of game files.
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Aug 26, 2021 21:06
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Tenzarin posted:Now I want to know what items are considered bad in poe1/2. Pretty much all weapons can be upgraded to mythical in poe2, even though mythical weapons are already overkill for the game. I don't recall the weapon upgrade system in poe1 because I always used buff rear end wizards summoning their spears of death to melee everything down. I'm not an other-PoE build expert, but as far as I can tell there aren't any bad items. Some are better than others (looking at you, Bittercut and Devil of Caroc Breastplate) but even the worst items are at least usable and in some cases actually optimal for certain gimmick builds. Of course, itemization with a few dozen predetermined weapons is a completely different beast than a loot game like this PoE. A big reason the PoE items are so balanced is because the devs are working under a highly controlled power level, which doesn't exist in world with mirrors and chase items. e: This even carries over to the wizard buffs. My latest PoE2 run was a Wizard/Ranger using the Minor Blights spell, usually one of the more mediocre summoned weapons, but because I built around it I was chunking encounters with what amounted to infinite, super-accurate, bouncing party-friendly fireballs that always targeted an enemy's worst armor type. Big Mad Drongo fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 21:19
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