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What is YISUN?
Mother
A lie we tell ourselves to have a purpose
Bliss
A paradox with no solution
Father
A strong female protagonist
The weakest thing there is and the smallest crawling thing
Creator
Everything in this miserable and hellish existence
A solution with no paradoxes
View Results
 
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Guildenstern Mother
Mar 31, 2010

Why walk when you can ride?

Rigged Death Trap posted:

Yeah every single time thus far, Jaggs wins. Its not stated how long jaggs has known, or how many loops it took him to realize it, but it may be one of the things different about this loop.

Yeah that's my point though. His stated purpose is to escape the loop and his plan is to keep doing the same thing he knows he's done every single time. Its a bad plan that makes no sense.

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Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Jagganoth might be very smart, but all of his intelligence and cunning have been oriented for the sole purpose of killing to the exclusion of all other paths for longer than most civilizations have existed.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Jagganoth might be very smart, but all of his intelligence and cunning have been oriented for the sole purpose of killing to the exclusion of all other paths for longer than most multiverses have existed.
Fixed that for you.

Kalli
Jun 2, 2001



Groundhog day but Bill's an unfathomably powerful being made up entirely of swords.

Victis
Mar 26, 2008

Guildenstern Mother posted:

So Jaggs does this every time the heir gets to a certain level of power for reasons (?), which leads to the outcome of the wheel resetting. And his plan is to keep doing this in order to keep the wheel from resetting? Is he getting stronger each time or something and if he does it a few thousand more times he can finally do something useful? Is that the plan?

He has done that in every iteration of reality and then had his memory all but erased

This is the first time (in his mind) that he put all the pieces together, and he believes that the anomaly Allison could give him the power to enact actual change (i.e. getting rid of the farce that Zoss has maintained for eons)

Now, whether or not Jaggs' perception of what is truth has been doctored or not, or whether he is even remembering the full picture, is a different story

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.
Yeah I still don't think we know what is different about this cycle from Jags perspective. His plan doesn't make any sense based on what we do know, but what we know is almost certainly wrong, as is what Jags knows. Are we sure hes actually tried to destroy everything before, or were his previous attempts maybe ways of conquest instead of omnicide?

Victis
Mar 26, 2008

I don't get where 'Jaggs has tried this before' comes from, or how his plan doesn't make sense

He's just the unbeatable warrior that ends up killing the heirs. He's always the one that's left when Zoss' plan fails and then a reset happens. I'd be pissed too if I was used for eternity

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Guildenstern Mother posted:

Yeah that's my point though. His stated purpose is to escape the loop and his plan is to keep doing the same thing he knows he's done every single time. Its a bad plan that makes no sense.

His plan is to do it enough times that he overflows an integer and breaks reality

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



isn't the main difference in this iteration the fact he knows metatron lives

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



like he wants to key to kill metatron. allison didn't give him the key so now he has to kill the demiurges. which is what he usually ends up doing, sure, but he wants to kill metatron, too.

packetmantis
Feb 26, 2013
If Jagg kills the demiurges doesn't he inherit their keys too?

paranoid randroid
Mar 4, 2007
i fail to see how jagganoth is any different from all these other assholes doing the same poo poo over and over again even though he knows it doesnt work

SURELY this time someone will draw blood from me. SURELY this time ill finish the count. SURELY this time ill destroy the wheel.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



paranoid randroid posted:

i fail to see how jagganoth is any different from all these other assholes doing the same poo poo over and over again even though he knows it doesnt work

SURELY this time someone will draw blood from me. SURELY this time ill finish the count. SURELY this time ill destroy the wheel.

after decades of study i have come to the conclusion this is what writers call a "theme"

Victis
Mar 26, 2008

paranoid randroid posted:

i fail to see how jagganoth is any different from all these other assholes doing the same poo poo over and over again even though he knows it doesnt work

SURELY this time someone will draw blood from me. SURELY this time ill finish the count. SURELY this time ill destroy the wheel.

As far as he knows (or his memory allows him to know), this is the first time in ever he's had the agency and opportunity to do this

Thundarr
Dec 24, 2002


paranoid randroid posted:

i fail to see how jagganoth is any different from all these other assholes doing the same poo poo over and over again even though he knows it doesnt work

SURELY this time someone will draw blood from me. SURELY this time ill finish the count. SURELY this time ill destroy the wheel.

Jagganoth is the Mario that has realized he's played this game thousands or millions of times already. He still has no choice but to play his part, but thinks he knows how to glitch the game so he can be free of it.

The others are blissfully unaware that any of this has happened before. Except Zoss, he definitely knows and he keeps trying to do the same thing with very slight differences hoping that this will be the time when it actually works.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL
Jadis knows more than anyone and is trapped by it.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


packetmantis posted:

If Jagg kills the demiurges doesn't he inherit their keys too?

They follow Highlander rules, yeah. But I don't think he'll get any new/different/stronger power from theirs, the king key is the one what would be an upgrade for him.

paranoid randroid
Mar 4, 2007
i mean whats a guy made of swords gonna get from incubus' key? the power to be a stinkier sword boy?

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


FuturePastNow posted:

They follow Highlander rules, yeah. But I don't think he'll get any new/different/stronger power from theirs, the king key is the one what would be an upgrade for him.

the individual keys give power over a single universe but only the key of Kings grants power over the wheel itself


i think


it's possible we don't understand everything about this story :thunk:

SniperWoreConverse
Mar 20, 2010



Gun Saliva
If he's capable of getting the demiurge keys, which I'm pretty sure he has to actively grab, he still gets their power and if he gets all six he will have the other words beyond just sword. It's a faximile of the real key which he cannot get without being actually royal

Guildenstern Mother
Mar 31, 2010

Why walk when you can ride?

Victis posted:

As far as he knows (or his memory allows him to know), this is the first time in ever he's had the agency and opportunity to do this

I didn't get that from the comic at all, but its possible I missed something.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



here are the bats you ordered



FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


SniperWoreConverse posted:

If he's capable of getting the demiurge keys, which I'm pretty sure he has to actively grab, he still gets their power and if he gets all six he will have the other words beyond just sword. It's a faximile of the real key which he cannot get without being actually royal

The seven lesser keys don't contain the true name of god, though, so I think the only power he'd gain from them is the ability to turn more gates on and off. If he wants hands on the wheel, he needs the one

packetmantis
Feb 26, 2013
Incubus in that one panel is so fuckin funny. What a stinky man.

Count Uvula
Dec 20, 2011

---

Guildenstern Mother posted:

I didn't get that from the comic at all, but its possible I missed something.

Yeah same lmao

AFAIK everything we know is:
  • Jagg's initial motivation -- end the profound suffering in the universe in the most batshit utilitarian manner possible, i.e. by removing everything capable of suffering.
  • That jagganoth is aware his plan is being stifled, and he believes Zoss and Metatron are responsible. We also know Zoss is responsible but don't have enough information to know exactly how Metatron is involved.
  • Jagg's current actions are roughly the same as his actions when he was working towards his initial goal. He may have attacked earlier than in previous cycles, but it's also possible that when he attacked now was usually when the heir had killed the last non-Jagg demiurge.
  • Jagganoth does not consider 'none of the demiurges are dead this time' to be fundamentally different from previous cycles, and views it as a minor hiccup.
  • We know this cycle is either not going to be reset or the next cycle is going to be almost identical because we already know the canonical future involves a war on Rayuba w/ White Chain as the leader of the defending army.

What I would say we probably know:
  • Jadis's prophecies about the heir are most likely based on one specific cycle of the timeline, since the point Zoss is resetting to should be long after she was driven mad by the knowledge. We do not know if this is a previous one, the current one, or a possible next one, but we do know the picture her attendants drew to illustrate the prophecy had White Chain and Cio so I'd personally guess it's most likely based on the final cycle. Also the picture has Maya Ten Meti and Jagganoth as being on the same side as the heir. The heir's side on the picture could be just people destroying the pact of the seven part world, though, and not necessarily their allies.
  • Jagganoth is most likely just repeating the actions of him dooming the universe and Zoss resetting the board because he doesn't consider anyone but himself capable of improving the situation, so even if he can't actually finish his plan he'll keep doing it just because he thinks there's no down-side to doing so and maybe he'll find an opportunity to make it stick somehow?
  • The ones aware of the timeline reset after it happens would seem to be: Zoss & Metatron (presumably perfect awareness for these two), Jagg, 6 Juggernaut and probably the rest of the Thorn Knights.

What we don't know:
  • Whether Zoss and Metatron actually colluded in any way
  • What goal Zoss is trying to reach by resetting the timeline repeatedly. I assume it's more complex than 'find someone who can beat Jagganoth' because Zoss could presumably somehow erase Jagg if he really wanted, so I'd assume 'they stopped the psychopathic murder god that can't be stopped with violence' is probably Zoss's litmus test for whether they can do whatever he wants them to as a whole.
  • Whether Jagganoth has altered his plans in any notable way to try and keep the timeline from being reset

Count Uvula fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Aug 25, 2021

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



NO COLLUSION

Phy
Jun 27, 2008



Fun Shoe

Kalli posted:

Groundhog day but Bill's an unfathomably powerful being made up entirely of swords.

That's just groundhog day

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Don't drive angry

Guildenstern Mother
Mar 31, 2010

Why walk when you can ride?

Cowcaster posted:

here are the bats you ordered





I don't really get the impression from these that this is the first cycle he's had this realization.

Brought To You By
Oct 31, 2012

God incubus is so pathetic. First is the fact he even needs a sword and the other is that he didn't realize Mammon was right there until everyone else started popping their limit breaks.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Guildenstern Mother posted:

I don't really get the impression from these that this is the first cycle he's had this realization.

Thats one of the things we dont know.

But thinking of it more, would it change anything? Jaggs will use the one tool he knows and is willing to use, every time. Regardless of how much he knows.

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006

Heeeeeey


It's like the old saying, when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Yak of Wrath
Feb 24, 2011

Keeping It Together
Seeing as Jaggs doesn't control the time loops, and is convinced he and the others are all bound to roles in a monomyth, it may very well be that if he attempted to gently caress off and sell noodles instead of being one of the final(?) bosses, everything gets reset til he pursues omnicide like a good boy.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Zoss did Featherine give you the curse to reset the wheel for all eternity?

Guildenstern Mother
Mar 31, 2010

Why walk when you can ride?
https://twitter.com/Orbitaldropkick/status/1431337787853258753?s=20

At least Cio has sensible motivations

habeasdorkus
Nov 3, 2013

Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.
See? She's fine. Everything is fine.

Kalli
Jun 2, 2001



Yeah, all the other Demiurges are also being pulled out of the water by their besties.

Thundarr
Dec 24, 2002


Wait, WC doesn't have the same injuries in War for Ryuba, does she?

This kind of looks like all we need for an End of Evangelion reference on the next page is a giant melting Gog face in the sky.

Wyld Karde
Mar 18, 2013

She's so ~dreamy~
Once again, Cio dives in to rescue Alison.

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Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Can Cio reclaim her eye/arm if she upgrades her mask again?

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