(Thread IKs:
ZShakespeare)
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Another Bill posted:If the Conservatives won they're probably going to make her Environment minister to own the libs. I hope people think about that before they decide voting is a waste of time. Wonder which COVID/vaccine/mask denialist they'll make Health Minister.
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Aug 30, 2021 18:19
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Wonder which COVID/vaccine/mask denialist they'll make Health Minister. Rempel is their ace in the hole for Health Minister. Cheryl would probably get Defence which would be lol. Petawawa loving despises her.
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Aug 30, 2021 18:22
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Count Roland posted:I seem to find myself in this odd zone where I'm mostly opposed to requiring vaccines (unless say you're a nurse at a hospital or old folk's home) and yet I have both doses myself and think the vaccines are beneficial. I find anti-vaxers to be morons but don't agree with those that think it should be mandatory which seems to be put me in this political no-mans land. Apologies if this has already been discussed to death. For me, it's like seat belts. Yeah, there are a few extremely limited circumstances where it might do you harm, and sometimes it won't save you, but the vast majority of the time it's going to protect you and the people around you. That feels like a really easy "yes" for government enforcement.
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Aug 30, 2021 19:18
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Count Roland posted:Speaking of politicization. I don't follow this thread closely, but what are people's thoughts on federal proposals for mandatory vaccines for things like transportation? how do you think we should handle a surge in covid hospitalizations that maxes out our healthcare system, which by all appearances is on the horizon? Would you support another lockdown instead of mandatory vaccination? Honest question because I would normally feel the same as you, but I feel like the writing is on the wall and mandatory vaccination is less harmful than another lockdown.
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Aug 30, 2021 19:45
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As a staunch conservative I believe we should handle this like they did in the bible. Making the unvaccinated live in their own colony.
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Aug 30, 2021 19:50
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I don't think you can make a reasonable opposition to mandatory vaccination. It's already mandatory for kids in most provinces. We have a long history of requiring vaccination for public health.
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Aug 30, 2021 19:54
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When Ford announces the vaccine certificate for Ontario tomorrow things are gonna get real fun
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Aug 30, 2021 19:56
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linoleum floors posted:I don't think you can make a reasonable opposition to mandatory vaccination. It's already mandatory for kids in most provinces. We have a long history of requiring vaccination for public health. We haven't needed mandatory vaccinations, historically, because there wasn't the same bonkers antivax rhetoric into relatively recently.
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Aug 30, 2021 19:59
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It's the most braindead loving thing in the world to protect us against deadly viruses like this. These loving new age pieces of poo poo are emboldened by the voices of the loving stupid assholes on social media. Barring plague rats from every day life will work - gently caress em. If they wanna take the risk - then they can rot. Maybe add em to this site: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/ They are the reason this plague is ongoing.
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Aug 30, 2021 20:26
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https://twitter.com/Lauren_Global/status/1432366861652430854 Sounds like the cities are preparing to implement mask mandates themselves while the Premier is AWOL as well.
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Aug 30, 2021 20:27
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People have just started wearing masks of their own accord too, was grocery shopping yesterday and about 50% of people were masked up, compared to maybe 5% the week before.
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Aug 30, 2021 20:37
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I was shocked to see a non-zero amount of outdoor masking in Niagara on the Lake on the weekend. It was maybe 10-20% of people on the main street, but compared to the usual "take your mask off the absolute split second you step outside of a retail business" it was surprising.
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Aug 30, 2021 20:46
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There were a lot more updates on that page than I was expecting.
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Aug 30, 2021 20:52
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ZShakespeare posted:As a staunch conservative I believe we should handle this like they did in the bible. Making the unvaccinated live in their own colony. Leviticus 13:45-46 posted:45 "The person with such an infectious disease must wear torn clothes, let his hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of his face and cry out, `Unclean! Unclean!' Literally wear a mask and self-isolate.
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Aug 30, 2021 20:55
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Kraftwerk posted:I’ve met completely liberal women who don’t want the vaccine due to reproductive concerns and worries about after effects. I'd imagine it's worse for pregnant women because "take this new thing" is going to sound insane when the list of things you're not supposed to consume because of the baby includes cheeses and deli meat and sushi and assorted herbal teas and a million other things you'd never normally think of.
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Aug 30, 2021 21:08
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I know one vaccine hesitant person that is that way due to the poo poo the CIA pulled in Pakistan. She did get it eventually though.
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Aug 30, 2021 21:21
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Scott Moe is implementing a vaccine QR code but he's not enforcing the system because retail stores might have to hire more people to check proof of vaccination. Because retail has had a really hard year, you guys, health and safety are too expensive think of the economy.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 30, 2021 |
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Aug 30, 2021 21:52
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:100% for all restrictions on non-essential activities for the unvaxxed. Out of curiosity what's your opposition to them being mandatory? Actual valid medical exemptions are miniscule (basically just a confirmed serious reaction to the first shot or a known PEG allergy). pokeyman posted:I'm confused, you said you're on board with mandates in hospitals and long-term care homes but "don't agree… it should be mandatory"? What principle guides your thoughts on which jobs should require vaccination? Basically I think the vaccines are good and people should get them, but making them mandatory will have marginal benefits in relation to the anger they cause, when other methods are available. First I’ll state again I have both shots. My gf is a healthcare worker who was required to get her shots early on as she works with vulnerable people. The mRNA technology is incredible stuff and promises to revolutionize medicine. Vaccines (like the one that rendered smallpox extinct) are some of the proudest accomplishments of humankind. So let it not be said I’m an antivaxxer. Let us also review the role of the state in health. Already mentioned were kids needing shots to get into school, or requiring seatbelts when driving. These are two good policies— their restriction on people’s choices is well worth the benefits to society. Trapick posted:Ontario, New Brunswick, and Manitoba have some requirement for vaccines to attend school, although they all have (easy to meet) exemption criteria. Religious exceptions exist not because they’re good public health policy but because some religious groups have been vehemently opposed to vaccinations since their inception. Religious freedom being a founding pillar of our society, they get an exception even though it harms not just that particular group but also maybe people around them. This is my philosophical reason for not liking mandates. It isn’t because I don’t think vaccines work, its because some people really, REALLY don’t want them. And even though that’s a poor choice to make, the freedom to make this choice has still been considered important for a very long time— courts legally remove this choice only occasionally. I think the freedom to make one’s own stupid choices is pretty important, and shouldn’t be readily curtailed. There’s a pandemic going on. Surely this is the time to make vaccines mandatory though, right? What if they infect other people? This is a valid concern and would make me ok with mandatory vaccines— if the vaccine prevented transmission of the virus. It does not. It lessens the likelihood, but delta in particular seems quite capable of spreading through fully vaccinated people. I think the most compelling argument in favour of mandatory vaccines is that it could prevent ICU units from getting backed up. Starks posted:how do you think we should handle a surge in covid hospitalizations that maxes out our healthcare system, which by all appearances is on the horizon? Would you support another lockdown instead of mandatory vaccination? Given the binary choice I’d choose mandatory vaccinations over another lockdown, easily. I guess my perspective here is different— I live in Atlantic Canada which has maintained a low caseload for most of the pandemic. There is no such looming threat here. Vaccination rates are already high. Lots of testing has made it possible to keep a very close eye on the pandemic and manage it better than many other areas. Which takes me to my alternative, and my practical testing for disliking mandatory vaccines. Testing. For people that don’t want to get a vaccine, have them get tested instead. They want to fly on a plane, or go to a movie or work that public sector job? Show a negative test from the past x number of days. As I mentioned above vaccinated people can still transmit the virus; a negative test result is a safer indicator when dealing with vulnerable people. For international travel many countries have required proof of vaccination or one or several negative tests. This system has worked pretty well. As a bonus it keeps testing rates reasonably high which can help spot fresh hot spots. It also works on kids under 12 who still cannot get a covid vaccine. If it comes down to mass death or mandatory vaccines, then sure, impose the mandate; I’m not going to die on this hill. But the mandate will get messier as effectiveness wanes with time, as boosters become available and new variants emerge. Testing (and enforced quarantine for positive tests!) is an effective way to track and limit the spread of the virus. Limiting ourselves to vaccines alone in determining who can do what is not only alienating but it is also less effective than a combined method.
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Aug 30, 2021 22:17
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Count Roland posted:Basically I think the vaccines are good and people should get them, but making them mandatory will have marginal benefits in relation to the anger they cause, when other methods are available. Taking just this part of the post - I think the anger mandates will cause is good. I'm extraordinarily tired of society sacrificing the lives of the most vulnerable to protect the feelings of the most selfish. I'm not saying that's what you specifically are a proponent of, but that's what I see our politicians doing when they talk about "divisive" policies. quote:If it comes down to mass death or mandatory vaccines, then sure, impose the mandate; I’m not going to die on this hill. But the mandate will get messier as effectiveness wanes with time, as boosters become available and new variants emerge. Testing (and enforced quarantine for positive tests!) is an effective way to track and limit the spread of the virus. Limiting ourselves to vaccines alone in determining who can do what is not only alienating but it is also less effective than a combined method.
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Aug 30, 2021 22:47
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Here’s something I can’t figure out: Are the people forcing Trudeau campaign events to be cancelled in different places organize and travel around to follow him or are there really that much hatred for the libs all around Ontario.
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Aug 30, 2021 23:24
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I'm not sure testing is as feasible a solution here as you think. For one thing, especially if vaccinated people are still in some cases able to carry and spread COVID, especially asymptomatically, then unless you're mandating the vaccinated also test regularly it's not going really protect the unvaccinated from catching COVID themselves and ending up in the ICU. Second, delta has changed things a fair bit in that you're infectious a hell of a lot sooner than other variants, with down estimates being as low as less than two days from infection in some cases. Not only that the period of pre-symptomatic infection is a fair bit longer than previous variants. You'll need frequent, repeated tests if you're going to catch all the cases before they infect someone else. I'm also not sure you can really rely on just mass rapid testing either given the lower accuracy and the fact if you're doing it at any scale it would be all self report which then what, unvaccinated people are going to take a PCR test every 2-3 days for the next year or two? Even if that's just the unvaccinated that's millions and millions of tests a week. There's what, 6-7 million or so unvaccinated eligible Canadians? At three times a week that's 18 million tests a week, every week until the pandemic ends. Since the pandemic has stated, Canada has administered a bit over 40 million PCR tests in total. Honestly that's a lot to ask for a complicated, expensive, and most likely ineffective solution. And personally? I'm loving fed up with the pandemic. I'm fed up with people prolonging it for dumbass reasons and my sympathy for people remaining unvaccinated for "personal reasons" is rapidly diminishing. All I can think of in looking at the cases and hospitalizations, and seeing how concentrated it is in the unvaccinated is, gee maybe we wouldn't be surging again if it wasn't for those selfish assholes. You're asking the general public to needlessly increase their risk, for healthcare workers to continue to burn out, for this pandemic to extend longer than it would otherwise, and for what? I know a few unvaccinated people and they all have a bad case of the social media brains. However, their convictions aren't so concrete that they would be willing to lose their job or never be able to go to a bar or restaurant again because of it. Sure, there's a miniscule number of people with a PEG allergy who can't get the mRNA shot as a result but even that is just temporary until J&J gets off their rear end and actually ships some vaccines up here (or another vaccine like Novovax gets approved). Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Aug 30, 2021 |
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Aug 30, 2021 23:32
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I see that cities in Alberta are finally doing something about the surging COVID cases. My city Edmonton just voted to reintroduce the face mask by-law. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/covid-19-mask-bylaw-transit-city-council-edmonton-debate-1.6158454 quote:Edmonton city council voted Monday to extend and fortify its masking bylaw, requiring residents to wear face coverings in all public indoor spaces.
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Aug 30, 2021 23:37
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Easing restrictions based on case counts alone is so dumb, particularly with something with no real downside like masks. Yeah, let's bake into the plan abandoning it as soon as we've demonstrated it works.
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Aug 30, 2021 23:39
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https://twitter.com/krismeloche/status/1432325739693608962 I'm not sure if "menial gains" and "few % point increase" makes this clever satire or...? Count Roland posted:Religious exceptions exist not because they’re good public health policy but because some religious groups have been vehemently opposed to vaccinations since their inception. Religious freedom being a founding pillar of our society, they get an exception even though it harms not just that particular group but also maybe people around them. This is my philosophical reason for not liking mandates. It isn’t because I don’t think vaccines work, its because some people really, REALLY don’t want them. And even though that’s a poor choice to make, the freedom to make this choice has still been considered important for a very long time— courts legally remove this choice only occasionally. I think the freedom to make one’s own stupid choices is pretty important, and shouldn’t be readily curtailed. Really? Have religious groups actually been vehemently opposed to vaccinations from the outset? In most nation's legal systems, stupid choices are not given priority over public health considerations. You might appreciate this article on why religious vaccine exemptions are a bad choice (and not really a legal necessity in the US; I don't know if someone's written a similar perspective of Canadian law).
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Aug 30, 2021 23:46
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iv46vi posted:Here’s something I can’t figure out: Are the people forcing Trudeau campaign events to be cancelled in different places organize and travel around to follow him or are there really that much hatred for the libs all around Ontario. A lot of the areas outside the GTA are very conservative so its not that surprising. But I also wouldnt be surprised at all if we later find out they are being paid by the CPC to follow him around and heckle.
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Aug 30, 2021 23:49
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Furnaceface posted:A lot of the areas outside the GTA are very conservative so its not that surprising. With at least one of the incidents several of the hecklers were campaign workers of the local CPC candidate
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Aug 30, 2021 23:51
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Well the Protect Our Province covid update was pretty good today. Twitter is out for Kenney's blood and I'm all for it.
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Aug 31, 2021 00:01
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My wife is a nurse. She has nursing friends. One of her friends runs a vaccine clinic. Since BC announced they are doing a passport registration and vaccinations have increased. Her friend told us that people coming now berate and shout at the people giving them the vaccine. People act like little children bring told to eat their vegetables. People swear and curse. Know what else is happening? Those tantrum throwing adult sized babies are getting vaccinated. The mandate/passport/whatever is making these idiots get their vaccine finally. Yes the abuse is abhorrent but the result is correct.
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Aug 31, 2021 00:03
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I'm not sure testing is as feasible a solution here as you think. Testing, like vaccinations themselves in this regard, isn't going to totally stop the transmission of the virus on its own. To do that, yes, you'd basically have to test everyone every day and even that may not be enough to catch everything. The purpose isn't to halt the spread entirely, its to slow it down. I don't know how it works elsewhere, but in Nova Scotia you're supposed to get tested if you have covid symptoms or if you've been to an exposure site. These sites are published by the government and categorized depending on how "severe" its deemed to have been. For most people its totally voluntary, and yet its been effective. When case numbers go up people get spooked. The government sets up more testing locations and people readily use them. If you test positive you're supposed to self-isolate. It doesn't prevent someone from getting or spreading covid. But it reduces the number of people its gets spread to, which is very useful. What has really irked me, and is what has caused me to inquire about this here, is the attitude of "gently caress those guys, make them get their vaccine this would all be over". I don't like to see groups of people being so eager to curtail the freedom of a different group. More than that though, mandatory vaccines won't end covid. It will raise the vaccination rate (and save lives) but not to 100%. Even if it did, the virus will still be circulating in the population, still infecting and maiming and killing people. I worry that unvaccinated people are becoming a scapegoat for the disease itself, even though their participation would not end the pandemic. And as for unvaccinated people that get covid? Well, too bad. Let it be a lesson to others.
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Aug 31, 2021 00:15
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CBC doing a story on how Alberta vets are running out of horse dewormer because of loving course Alberta.
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Aug 31, 2021 00:15
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Furnaceface posted:CBC doing a story on how Alberta vets are running out of horse dewormer because of loving course Alberta. trade Alberta for Vermont oil for syrup deal
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Aug 31, 2021 00:26
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Count Roland posted:What has really irked me, and is what has caused me to inquire about this here, is the attitude of "gently caress those guys, make them get their vaccine this would all be over". I don't like to see groups of people being so eager to curtail the freedom of a different group. More than that though, mandatory vaccines won't end covid. It will raise the vaccination rate (and save lives) but not to 100%. Even if it did, the virus will still be circulating in the population, still infecting and maiming and killing people. I worry that unvaccinated people are becoming a scapegoat for the disease itself, even though their participation would not end the pandemic. Unvaccinated people aren't a scapegoat for the disease itself but they are the demonstrable main vector of its continued spread and likely also it's continued mutation. So yeah, gently caress those guys.
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Aug 31, 2021 00:48
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Count Roland posted:What has really irked me, and is what has caused me to inquire about this here, is the attitude of "gently caress those guys, make them get their vaccine this would all be over". I don't like to see groups of people being so eager to curtail the freedom of a different group. More than that though, mandatory vaccines won't end covid. It will raise the vaccination rate (and save lives) but not to 100%. Even if it did, the virus will still be circulating in the population, still infecting and maiming and killing people. I worry that unvaccinated people are becoming a scapegoat for the disease itself, even though their participation would not end the pandemic. lol nope, gently caress 'em. They're blowing up our already-weakened healthcare, pushing back needed care for other ailments because our overworked doctors and nurses are stuck dealing with antivaxx idiots taking up ICU beds (and soon flooding ERs as their colons slough out their assholes I guess). They're also preventing us from reaching effective herd immunity to protect the people who really cannot get the vaccine, which is extending the suffering for those groups for no reason. Covid becoming a slightly more severe cold is like, the best case at this point, and cannot happen soon enough and would happen sooner without these entitled fuckwits.
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Aug 31, 2021 00:56
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Count Roland posted:Testing, like vaccinations themselves in this regard, isn't going to totally stop the transmission of the virus on its own. To do that, yes, you'd basically have to test everyone every day and even that may not be enough to catch everything. The purpose isn't to halt the spread entirely, its to slow it down. No mandatory testing program I know of is just "test when you are symptomatic". That's wholly insufficient, especially with delta. You're spewing virus for around two days prior to their symptoms showing. When it's done in workplaces and whatnot, it's a case of "you must get a test every 48-72 hours and it must be negative". Will it end it immediately? Nobody is saying that. But I don't know how you can look at the percentage of positive cases and hospitalizations that are unvaccinated, especially given their percentage of the population, and not think that if they were vaccinated it would sure as hell get things under control a hell of a lot faster. And sure that'll be a "lesson" for them but it's also a loving strain on our healthcare resources and healthcare workers and not to mention a risk to everyone around them, especially the elderly and immunocompromised who haven't quite got the same level of protection from two shots.
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Aug 31, 2021 01:00
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InfiniteZero posted:Unvaccinated people aren't a scapegoat for the disease itself but they are the demonstrable main vector of its continued spread and likely also it's continued mutation. So yeah, gently caress those guys. Unvaccinated people who get infected end up needing a higher level of care, taking up almost if not all the ICU beds, which causes surgeries to not be performed, or patients to not be seen for critical health issues. Like this guy in Texas who died of loving gallstone pancreatitis because there wasn’t a single ICU bed that could take him: https://twitter.com/davidbegnaud/status/1431264120989523971?s=21 So gently caress the unvaccinated, they should all be treated like pariahs. \/\/\/ The Coward Douglas Ford rides again! ChickenDoodle fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 01:01
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Vaccine certificate announcement for tomorrow was canceled lol. Fuckin’ Ford.
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Aug 31, 2021 01:12
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I get the whole announcement was just a way to shut down the phu passport and they're going to be "working on it" until the election is over. Love implementing restrictions when we've already trashed our healthcare systems
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Aug 31, 2021 01:19
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Count Roland posted:What has really irked me, and is what has caused me to inquire about this here, is the attitude of "gently caress those guys, make them get their vaccine this would all be over". I don't like to see groups of people being so eager to curtail the freedom of a different group. More than that though, mandatory vaccines won't end covid. It will raise the vaccination rate (and save lives) but not to 100%. Even if it did, the virus will still be circulating in the population, still infecting and maiming and killing people. I worry that unvaccinated people are becoming a scapegoat for the disease itself, even though their participation would not end the pandemic. We don't need to get to 100% though. We're aiming for a high enough percentage that covid can't tear through the whole population. I think it's up for debate whether a wide vaccination mandate helps or hurts achieve that goal (some people will begrudgingly follow the law/their peers, others will double down on "can't tell me what to do"). I'm in Nova Scotia too and have been pleasantly surprised by our government's continued response. I think it's barely adequate, but that seems miraculous compared to the sea of venal incompetence we're sailing through. Consider much of the rest of Canada, where testing is rare and costs the testee (or is otherwise hard to access). Mask mandates and various restrictions are repeatedly lifted then reinstated with no relationship to the ongoing spread of disease. Nobody's at the airport to check if you’ve been vaccinated and to give you a take home covid test. Nobody's volunteering to run rapid test sites. It's such a dismal response, so much being abandoned to "personal responsibility", and then those persons are taking zero responsibility. I understand the frustration. I don't know if expanding mandates is the answer, but in too many places it's one of the few remaining avenues with any political will behind it.
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Aug 31, 2021 01:22
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ChickenDoodle posted:So gently caress the unvaccinated, they should all be treated like pariahs. Yeah. Well, I kinda thought this would be the general consensus. Ah well, I said my bit. I think vaccines are indeed going to become mandatory in most or all of Canada. I genuinely hope the policy is as effective as you all think it will be because I sure am sick of all this. Perhaps my fears are misplaced.
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Aug 31, 2021 01:22
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We (Alberta) got a press release saying old people in nursing homes and immunocompromised people. They didn't even entertain a press conference.
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Aug 31, 2021 01:29
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