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How accurate is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8wWoQ3_F00
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Sep 1, 2021 04:37
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punk rebel ecks posted:How accurate is this? I talk to some Chinese people regularly and it seems right from what they tell me about their work hours.
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Sep 1, 2021 04:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:How accurate is this? So what kind of Marxism is this, then?
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Sep 1, 2021 08:57
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Oh no! Not the Tech Company Executives! Edit: poo poo, I worked a 996 last week open to close, just about. I wish I was getting tech bro pay. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Sep 1, 2021 |
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Sep 1, 2021 14:09
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Franks Happy Place posted:So what kind of Marxism is this, then? About as Marxist as the USA.
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Sep 1, 2021 15:14
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punk rebel ecks posted:How accurate is this? Sorta accurate, but leave it to vice to give it a sinister spin. This really only applies for the tech industry. Those jobs are typically very well compensated and it's pretty much what's required in some of the very competitive markets, but still not a good work environment. And as mentioned above, it's not uncommon in the industry. Also this just got regulated out of existence. Will see how wells it's executed. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-authorities-say-overtime-996-policy-is-illegal-2021-08-27/ GlassEye-Boy fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Sep 1, 2021 |
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Sep 1, 2021 15:17
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It's still gonna happen just like it happens everywhere else. Japan they did similar stuff to try to get people to stop working dumb hours, but guess what, working from home doesn't count towards overtime limits, so you had a bunch of people just doing stuff remotely now. Still arguably better in a way since it can cut down on true bullshit like just waiting to be given work or loving around until your boss wants to leave, but all the investment bank analysts etc. that were actually often legitimately working on some level or another for 100 hours a week are still getting hosed. But in most cases where that truly is the culture said people are indeed compensated well so it does self-correct to a certain extent.
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Sep 1, 2021 16:20
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996 can be solved by hiring enough staff. But that would mean c-levels giving the slightest amount of poo poo for the suffering they cause their staff. If China can actually do anything to curb poo poo like this I will stand up and applaud.
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Sep 1, 2021 16:24
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It took a strong labor movement to bring about an eight hour workday; now, employers have had decades to work out how to get around those requirements so we're returning to the historical mean.
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Sep 1, 2021 16:29
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I even find the eight hour workday to be ridiculous. Especially since it feels like most people don't spend all the much time "working".
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Sep 1, 2021 16:34
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Franks Happy Place posted:So what kind of Marxism is this, then? Here is my uneducated opinion: It could be justificable if it where really to build a better society for everyone. But is really corporations running on a society with few checks and a culture that support this type of exploitation. China could do a better work here, and probably they will... working more hours maybe work on factory work, but I don't think is that great an idea in service industries. I heard China workplace culture is slighly better than the Japanese one, so we can't blame the political system... just next to china theres a democratic country where workplace culture is even worse. We can, we can blame China for this abuse of human beings. But maybe is more constructive to see why they are like that, why they allow this to happen.
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Sep 1, 2021 16:38
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Tei posted:just next to china theres a democratic country where workplace culture is even worse. We can, we can blame China for this abuse of human beings. But maybe is more constructive to see why they are like that, why they allow this to happen. That's the point. China treats its workers just as bad as any other capitalist nation, because that's what China is. The workers are not in charge, they're as exploited as anywhere else.
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Sep 1, 2021 17:17
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https://www.metro.us/didi-and-jd-com-workers/ Seems relevant, DiDi and JD, two of the largest e-commerce companies in China are forming worker unions. There is still a question of how effective unions are in China, but that may change in the future as well.
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Sep 1, 2021 17:35
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How are u posted:That's the point. China treats its workers just as bad as any other capitalist nation, because that's what China is. The workers are not in charge, they're as exploited as anywhere else. But Xi Jinping has a doctorate in Marxism!
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Sep 1, 2021 18:49
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Tei posted:Here is my uneducated opinion: What’s the evidence that Japan’s workplace culture is worse than China’s? I’ve seen worker survey/audit data by supply chain sustainability companies that puts China in a waaaay worse place than not just Japan, Korea, and Taiwan but even other nondemocratic manufacturing countries in the region like Vietnam. And that’s ignoring that the data is biased as hell because companies know how to game audits and reporting. It won’t capture the white collar workers that are talking about 996, but I’m guessing they’re a fraction of the population of manufacturing workers.
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Sep 1, 2021 19:16
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GlassEye-Boy posted:https://www.metro.us/didi-and-jd-com-workers/ Corporate/Yellow unions do not represent workers.
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Sep 1, 2021 19:46
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How are u posted:That's the point. China treats its workers just as bad as any other capitalist nation, because that's what China is. The workers are not in charge, they're as exploited as anywhere else. Tech executives are not workers, they are PMCs or even Bourgeoise if they own enough stock.
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Sep 1, 2021 22:25
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Tech executives are not workers, they are PMCs or even Bourgeoise if they own enough stock. What is even wrong with you? The video describes tech workers and that is who everyone in this thread is talking about.
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Sep 1, 2021 23:25
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Solaris 2.0 posted:What is even wrong with you?   Mei(who is a "Games Operation Manager" also a PMC) and  So, if you want to answer Franks Happy Place posted:So what kind of Marxism is this, then? then the Marxist analysis is that the 44 hour maximum work week has not been enforced, in this case, because these are not workers and therefore the state does not represent them.
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Sep 2, 2021 00:38
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China's new U.S. ambassador goes full wolf in first major speechquote:China’s newly minted ambassador to the United States only arrived in July, but the honeymoon is already over. Qin Gang on Tuesday reinforced his reputation as a sharp-edged avatar of Chinese diplomacy with a speech that excoriated U.S. “wrong beliefs” and cautioned against violating Beijing’s “red line” of core interests in areas including the South China Sea, Taiwan and Xinjiang. In his most substantive public statement yet, Qin pointed ominously to China’s nuclear arsenal and warned of “disastrous consequences” if the U.S. seeks to suppress China using a “Cold War playbook.”
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Sep 2, 2021 00:47
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What does "meet the same fate as the former Soviet Union" even mean? Get bogged down in a war in Afghanistan and then dissolve into component states? China, man... 
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Sep 2, 2021 00:55
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The only people interviewed in that video who have their position identified in tech are: Fancy sounding titles doesn't make them executives jesus loving christ. Every single one of these people could be an ally to labour but I guess you're too good for their support, I wonder how well that's working out.
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Sep 2, 2021 00:59
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Cpt_Obvious posted:then the Marxist analysis is that the 44 hour maximum work week has not been enforced, in this case, because these are not workers and therefore the state does not represent them. So capitalist European states have a more inclusive protection of employees than a supposed socialist state under your definition? Socialist states will continue to have managers and people who direct others. Even if part of their pay comes from the surplus labor of their underlings, that does not disqualify them from being workers and requiring protections. The alternative is exploitation. Where are the sources saying otherwise? If you won't count managers, here's some programmers opposing 996 culture as well. quote:Two Chinese software developers are trying to harness the power of open source software to improve working conditions for coders. I'm not even sure if you're being serious or doing a devil's advocate, your argument is a perversion of Marxist thought. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 01:00
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The only people interviewed in that video who have their position identified in tech are: Thank you for the incredible analysis, dear Marxism understander!
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Sep 2, 2021 01:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:Fancy sounding titles doesn't make them executives jesus loving christ. Every single one of these people could be an ally to labour but I guess you're too good for their support, I wonder how well that's working out. no hay camino posted:Socialist states will continue to have managers and people who direct others. Even if part of their pay comes from the surplus labor of their underlings, that does not disqualify them from being workers and requiring protections. The alternative is exploitation. Where are the sources saying otherwise? For example, the worker wants: High wages Safe work environments Paid time off In direct opposition, the employer wants: Low Wages Fast "assembly lines" (which many times means skipping safety protocols) No paid time off (for employees) Where does the manager fit in? Well, his wages are not the same as the workers, his is significantly higher. Instead, he enforces the low-wage priorities of the employer by hiring wages as low as possible and stifling their ability to get raises. That is his job, afterall. He's also the guy who's most likely to scream "I don't give a gently caress if there's sparks shooting out of the gears, we got a quota to fill!" because the reality is he is also not exposed to the same workplace hazards that the worker is. And, like wages, his benefits are usually much better than the workers and it is his job to refuse your sick time and force you to work when you're injured. So the manager has his class interests aligned with the employer, not the worker. Even though they both receive payment for their "work" from the same source, the relation they have with workers and employers is completely different. The worker opposes the employer, and the manager enforces the employers will. There's a reason that one of the most important rules of organizing a workplace is to never, EVER let management know you are forming a union because it is their job to stop you from doing so. Edit: Clarified "No paid time off" Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 01:22
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Raenir Salazar posted:Fancy sounding titles doesn't make them executives jesus loving christ. Every single one of these people could be an ally to labour but I guess you're too good for their support, I wonder how well that's working out. These "managers " and "executives" look barely older than teenagers. Even in America a lot of companies use the title such as "manager" instead of "team lead".
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Sep 2, 2021 01:54
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punk rebel ecks posted:These "managers " and "executives" look barely older than teenagers. It's not just "manager" that can be grossly misleading either. Many banks call their sales/business dev people VPs, because it makes them sound way more important when talking to clients.
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Sep 2, 2021 02:02
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Cpt_Obvious posted:So, the differentiation between worker and PMC is defined by class interests. Obviously, the worker and the employer are in an adversarial relationship, this is the defining ground of Class Struggle. But where does the manager fit in? With whom does he side in the Class Struggle? Let's take a look: You have no idea what a white collar workplace is like everyone has “manager” “project lead” or “VP” in their title it’s loving meaningless. Hell I was a “development manager” which a fancy title for “guy who must receive client calls and correct database bugs” and technically had a team of two under me. I still made less than $50k a year while expected to work constant overtime. Including most weekends. Meanwhile CEO of said company eventually sold us out for a golden parachute and we all got laid off. But sure, Cpt Obvious, feel free to lecture everyone what a “real” worker is so only those deemed pure enough by posters such as yourself can be allowed to embrace Marxism. *edit* Also when I worked grocery the mid level “managers” were paid roughly $40K a year while working shifts of 3am-2pm and then 4pm-1am sometimes back to back, often close to 60 hour work weeks. It wasn’t unheard of to hear of someone dropping dead due to the stress. Again, the title is meaningless in this context. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 02:36
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Marxism is attaching managerial role language in on-paper job titles so that any promises of worker's liberation or protections of labor do not apply to them anymore because they're not workers. the more employees subject to this "one weird trick" that voids any consideration of them in assurances to the proletariat, the more Marxismer it is
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Sep 2, 2021 03:57
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Solaris 2.0 posted:
I think you are confusing class and income which may overlap but are not the same thing. Members of different classes may have similar income, but more importantly their relationship with other people are very different. For example, your low income grocery store manager may not make a whole lot more than your average shelf stocker (twice as many pennies are still pennies), but it is his job to enforce the drudgery of the workplace. He's still the one who docks you for being late, sitting down on the job, or taking too long on your break. These are all directly in opposition to what the worker wants, and perfectly in line with what his employer wants. However, low-income managerial positions are an interesting cross section because many who work those positions in one location may be workers in another. In this way, their class interests may line up with workers because they technically are one as well. More so, the turn over rate at many of those jobs may be so high that they are rapidly cycling through lower management, constantly replacing management with key holders and cashiers. The video in question specifically interviews middle and upper management, including an executive and a middle level management (I don't know what mei's fancy title relates to but I assume she has subordinates). And the video also implies that they all have salaried positions which is what helps them skirt the maximum hourly work week. So such comparisons to grocery managers aren't really relevant.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:31
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what exactly do you think a manager does in the games or much of the tech industry? say an associate project manager? Or a games system manager? Or a community relations manager? Hint: they're all people who do actual work. TItles mean very nearly nothing. They're honestly less in a position to lord over people than your average manager at a mcdonalds (who, in contrast, actually makes nearly all the operational, or 'executive,' if you will, decisions). You're confusing managers with executives my dude.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:53
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Cpt_Obvious posted:For example, your low income grocery store manager may not make a whole lot more than your average shelf stocker (twice as many pennies are still pennies), but it is his job to enforce the drudgery of the workplace. He's still the one who docks you for being late, sitting down on the job, or taking too long on your break. These are all directly in opposition to what the worker wants, and perfectly in line with what his employer wants. when you've metasectioned labor concepts to the point where you're trying to say "the manager of the grocery store / wendy's / concrete fill digsite isn't a worker anymore because they do what his employer wants" you've lost the plot
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Sep 2, 2021 05:15
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Staluigi posted:when you've metasectioned labor concepts to the point where you're trying to say "the manager of the grocery store / wendy's / concrete fill digsite isn't a worker anymore because they do what his employer wants" you've lost the plot I spent a year working in a fast casual restaurant chain and the managers worked their bodies to the loving bone. Then the regional manager would pop in once in a while to take them into the walk-in to threaten to fire them for not hitting ridiculous metrics, reducing those women to tears more than once. The managers were just as exploited as us line workers and cashiers. This guy has no idea what he's talking about, good grief.
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Sep 2, 2021 06:44
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Managers are not workers. That's why there is no need for them under communism and workers' self-management was conceived.
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Sep 2, 2021 06:56
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GlassEye-Boy posted:https://www.metro.us/didi-and-jd-com-workers/ Awesome quote:Didi’s union, announced on an internal forum last month, will be initially managed by employees at its Beijing headquarters and will be guided by the government-backed All China Federation of Trade Unions (ACTFU) Well :/ so much for that
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Sep 2, 2021 07:13
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How are u posted:I spent a year working in a fast casual restaurant chain and the managers worked their bodies to the loving bone. Then the regional manager would pop in once in a while to take them into the walk-in to threaten to fire them for not hitting ridiculous metrics, reducing those women to tears more than once. The managers were just as exploited as us line workers and cashiers. i still remember the not-infrequent days as a construction subcontractor where i slotted in for site boss because existing site bosses would get called away to clusterfucks on the larger commercial jobs during our grueling summer time overages, and i could monitor and fill out requisite safety paperwork as needed on those days. it was rather exhilarating to spontaneously metamorphose into Not A Worker Actually and have my class interests radically re-align against the workers as many as three times a week! i'm also so glad in a later job i had my title upgraded from QA to QA manager for a raise of $nothing and 10 extra hours of work in a department of one person. i will never forget the cracking sounds as i transformed from worker to tool of the corporation, my interests being subsumed in the Will of the Employer genuinely at that point of axiomatic priors of asserted marxist theory, it's lost critical application to reality and even now looks weird on paper
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Sep 2, 2021 07:25
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Staluigi posted:i still remember the not-infrequent days as a construction subcontractor where i slotted in for site boss because existing site bosses would get called away to clusterfucks on the larger commercial jobs during our grueling summer time overages, and i could monitor and fill out requisite safety paperwork as needed on those days. it was rather exhilarating to spontaneously metamorphose into Not A Worker Actually and have my class interests radically re-align against the workers as many as three times a week! It isn't based on axiomatic priors. Managers just add nothing of value in terms of labor performed, much like capitalists.
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Sep 2, 2021 07:28
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Managers keep track of production and have employees report to them on their progress and any issues they have. A better word for them would be "directors" of whatever department they are in. Even in a fully socialized world you would have managers, only they may be elected their subordinates (much like in higher education).
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Sep 2, 2021 07:36
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Self managed workplaces can still have people performing the work of management, it's just usually an elected or delegated position in that case. Anyways, congratulations to DiDi workers on joining the world's largest and most successful labor union.
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Sep 2, 2021 07:38
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the people affected by 996 are not managers, I believe, but people like programmers and call center guys/gals, I believe
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Sep 2, 2021 07:40
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