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None of this is relative to PMCs because that class was discovered and developed far more recently. It has been more recently observed that many of those business owners who fall out power turn reactionary. Just look at all the chud parades full of fancy SUVs, the "boaters for Trump", and the Capitol riots. Those aren't working class stiffs, they're small business owners who are seeing their elevated statuses fall apart as massive corporations devour their little fiefdoms. The dude that owns a bar is at the "YER MASKING MAH FREEDUMS!" rally because he's scared of losing his bar. Also, I have never stated that the managerial class was some sort of unnecessary boogieman, every assembly line needs organization. The question is, who appoints the managers and what is their goal? The answer is that the business owners unilaterally pick the management so that management represents their interests. However, in a democratic workplace the workers would elect their management team such that they represented their interests. So, really, management is a reflection of whoever controls the workplace. If you want a decent rundown of Marx, lookup Midwestern Marx on YouTube. He does close guides of some of some of the core Marxist readings. I found his guide on State and Revolution very helpful. And ffs do not listen to Vaush. He's an idiot who has read nothing and understands even less.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:04
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theorists have been arguing over whether capitalism has developed any post-Marxian social classes besides the proletariat/bourgeois dichotomy since forever. James Burnham wrote The Managerial Revolution in 1941. In the four score years since, you can find any number of critiques or defences of managers-as-a-distinct-social-strata from any number of perspectives: liberal, Christian-democratic, conservative, Marxian (analytic? postmodern?) etc. a typical intro text will regularly introduce not even one more class, but several - at least a Fordist mode and one or more post-Fordist modes, for example I'm not sure this really belongs in the China thread however ronya fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 19:13
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Fordism with Chinese Characteristics
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Sep 2, 2021 19:26
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Solaris 2.0 posted:We should feel solidarity with people being exploited by capitalism whether they are in China, America, or anywhere in the world. Not attacking them because they don’t meet some weird obtuse definition of what a “true” worker is. fuckin agreed, man the modern trend in china has been a capitulation to surprisingly thorough and institutionally hardened worker exploitation, currently existing in such extent that i feel relatively thankful for my own lot in life in a neoliberal hellhole which is not supposed to be a favorable comparison. this is ... not a good thing "indulging in increasingly tormented exclusionary delineations of which exploited workers are Workers™ actually" feels like the exact wrong way to approach this, to an extent you can almost question if its intentionally fissiparous
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Sep 2, 2021 20:33
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Staluigi posted:fuckin agreed, man Yeah, the best approach is simply to ignore the fact that china claims to be marxist, since the ccp's hypocrisy is so apparent through what it has done.
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Sep 2, 2021 21:42
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Alchenar posted:Okay I really don't want to dive into this too deeply because a) China thread, not marxism thread and b) people are going to get absolutely furious at me and I'm not really up for that but: *looks at state of the world* boy I sure am glad the adults are in charge
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Sep 2, 2021 23:43
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Megillah Gorilla posted:lol, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you? Dividing said workload among a few elected workers and using centralized databases is perfectly feasible. The tools for doing such a thing already exist. The point of my jab on the matter of safety was mocking your silly suggestion that specialists could not focus on safety if they had to do their share of some scheduling responsabilities, you dullard. You're waving your technocratic ideology like a magic wand to make these things sound absolutely herculean, but that doesn't change the reality that we already possess the capability. Megillah Gorilla posted:Absolutely. Being a paper pusher is in no way inherently superior to being a welder, or a driver, or anything else. Nor should we consider it to be. You have also completely fabricated that I've stated there is no need for specialist workers. I know in your heart you think that workers can't specialize and perform some managerial tasks, but that doesn't make it fact. What there isn't a need for is professional managers, which are "specialists" only insofar as their tasks are time-consuming if not properly divided among multiple people. MBAs are notorious for being do-nothing degrees that accomplish little else but facilitate partying during school.
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Sep 3, 2021 05:59
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Judakel posted:Dividing said workload among a few elected workers and using centralized databases is perfectly feasible. The tools for doing such a thing already exist. And the people who use those tools are called managers. And, as many others have already explained to you - at length - most managers (and even executives) are just workers with a meaningless title and heavier workload who get constantly crapped on by the real enemy of the working class: the capitalists. quote:You're waving your technocratic ideology like a magic wand to make these things sound absolutely herculean My technocratic ideology of "Jack of all trades and master of none" is not feasible in the incredibly complex systems of the modern world? quote:You have also completely fabricated that I've stated there is no need for specialist workers. Managers are specialists. . EDIT: Does anyone have that old union poster of a capitalists going amongst his workers pitting the Irish against the Catholic against the Black man then laughing with his friends at how stupid those drat proles are. I think it might really help OP here understand where everyone is coming from viz a viz most managers are working shlubs themselves and fighting amongst ourselves is exactly what the capitalist bastards want us to do. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 14:22
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Megillah Gorilla posted:EDIT: Does anyone have that old union poster of a capitalists going amongst his workers pitting the Irish against the Catholic against the Black man then laughing with his friends at how stupid those drat proles are. Managers are not an ethnicity. However, the iww has some great advice on unionization: IWW website posted:Here is some advice in the short term. You will want to keep any union talk, and general conversations about wages, benefits, hours, etc., out of the ears of management. Emphasis mine. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 15:09
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Managers are not an ethnicity. You are, once again, confusing management with executives. In the white collar (especially IT) workforce, there is no hard line between "management" and "worker" and anyone here who has or does work in a white collar office will agree. I can guarantee you at my own job 2/3 of the employees have "manager, VP, director" somewhere in their title, even if they are not actually managing anyone or anything. For example, do you know what a "Project Manager" is? Also that link you posted I believe is for "Food and Retail workers" which is a vastly different beast than white collar IT. I should know, I have worked in all three fields. Megillah Gorilla posted:
This 100%. Capitalists want workers to turn against themselves and stay divided. A divided workforce becomes harder to organize. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 16:26
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Banking is another one where there's a ton of people with manager/director in their title who don't actually manage any people because IIRC it's a regulatory requirement to have someone at a manager level or above sign off on certain things so the solution is to just make everybody one even if they have zero subordinates.
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Sep 3, 2021 16:29
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i work in consumer electronics as a product manager, which has manager in the title but i don’t have any people reporting to me. 99% of the product managers ive met would absolutely take the side of the executives against the real workers if it came down to the choice.
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Sep 3, 2021 16:41
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None of the "managers" where I work would take the side of "executives" if executives were in the wrong; also helps we were all in the same union. Like what does "taking the side of the 'real' workers" even mean. What does that even look like; carrying out orders that they also have to? Taking sides in an office argument? There's a reason why corporate fights so hard against workers because that's a meaningless phrase without organization and every "manager" I've had the pleasure of working with have all had representation in the union and worked hard to represent everyone.
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Sep 3, 2021 17:47
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I feel like the relative need for dedicated administrators and the potential or not for solidarity of anyone an inch higher on org charts with the bottom rung is a bit off topic. Especially since hypotheticals about worker rights aren't very relevant to present day China. Anyhow, China news story. https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-entertainment-business-religion-china-62dda0fc98601dd5afa3aa555a901b3f quote:China’s government banned effeminate men on TV and told broadcasters Thursday to promote “revolutionary culture,” broadening a campaign to tighten control over business and society and enforce official morality.
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Sep 3, 2021 18:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-entertainment-business-religion-china-62dda0fc98601dd5afa3aa555a901b3f This is what it looks like when "worrying" about the demographic bomb turns into "flailing" about the demographic bomb. Yikes. That's really hosed up.
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Sep 3, 2021 18:50
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Yeah, and the 'korean boy band' look is barely effeminate at all in many internet circles. Is their idea of 'normal' masculinity a shrine to Arnold Schwarzenegger or the Chinese equivalent?
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Sep 3, 2021 19:04
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How are u posted:This is what it looks like when "worrying" about the demographic bomb turns into "flailing" about the demographic bomb. Yikes. That's really hosed up.
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Sep 3, 2021 19:12
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SlothfulCobra posted:https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-entertainment-business-religion-china-62dda0fc98601dd5afa3aa555a901b3f why do all autocratic governments inevitably start doing the same dramatic, culturally paranoid autocrat poo poo why is it always a direct path towards all this increasingly hyperreflexive bullshit, growing in intensity until it is like a farce
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Sep 3, 2021 19:13
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no hay camino posted:Is China really in danger of becoming the next Japan in 20-30 years due to the aging population? I'm not sure what you mean by "the next Japan" but the demographic crisis is real and can't be ignored. By 2050 like around 40% of China's entire population will be people above the retirement age, elders. Google "china demographic crisis" or similar and there are tons of articles that lay it out. Demographic crisis + China's extreme vulnerability to climate change is going to make for a really lovely mid-century for them.
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Sep 3, 2021 19:24
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Staluigi posted:why do all autocratic governments inevitably start doing the same dramatic, culturally paranoid autocrat poo poo It seems very paternalistic: quote:The party has reduced children’s access to online games and is trying to discourage what it sees as unhealthy attention to celebrities. I don't see a malicious intent in this per se - sure kids should be studying, sure don't promote flashy displays of wealth. It's more of a condescending attitude towards Chinese citizens that they need big daddy government to tell them what to do. Can parents not take care of their own children?
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Sep 3, 2021 19:28
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The whole thing has echoes of fascist obsessions with masculinity from the 1930s. Especially given the casual homophobia spat out in the official statement.
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Sep 3, 2021 19:52
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Solaris 2.0 posted:
Despite their name, the Industrial Workers of the World does not focus on any particular industry but instead hopes to organize all workplaces. It is an excellent resource for anyone hoping to organize.
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Sep 3, 2021 20:12
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no hay camino posted:It seems very paternalistic: not very long ago they did the same thing with a series of edicts against entire musical and cultural genres, specifically targeting stuff that emulated blackness, hip-hop, rap, urban clothing and any related style of tattoos. they were vanished from television. music figures got got, it was like the tipper gore poo poo on steroids. bling was cropped out or literally just pixel blurred now let's move our sights to intensifying the war against the next depraved vulgarity infecting our precious children: effeminacy
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Sep 3, 2021 20:23
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Managers are not an ethnicity Oh my god, I wish I could frame this and hang it from the thread title. It's like an Olympic gold medal level of missing the point.
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Sep 4, 2021 08:49
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, and the 'korean boy band' look is barely effeminate at all in many internet circles. A fit Asian man in a suit tailored to within an inch of its life is insanely sexy and it wouldn't surprise me if a part of this latest bullshit is just the jealousy of fat old men.
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Sep 4, 2021 09:01
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Supposedly, the CPC was talking about cracking down on 996 culture the last I heard about it. It isn’t atypical for relative broad based action to happen (or quickly be reversed).
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Sep 4, 2021 11:18
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Just pay managers the same as the employees they manage and allow employees to periodically vote for their managers.
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Sep 5, 2021 00:34
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no hay camino posted:Is China really in danger of becoming the next Japan in 20-30 years due to the aging population? I don't think "becoming the next Japan" is really the boogie man scenario that financial journalists seem to think. Japan has done much better over the last 30 years than the bears predicted. Definitely there are problems but they aren't nearly as bad as most would have thought 20 or 30 years ago. One thing I suspect has made the population loss less meaningful is that Japan inherited a low-wage, low-productivity surplus labor economy from the pre-1960s era. They still have like elevator/gas pump/parking lot attendants and poo poo there because you could get people to take those jobs for very little pay until recently. Part of why Japan's labor productivity is so low and has been so stubbornly for so long is that they could get away with it, there's no reason to invest in labor saving technology or better management/organization when you can find people who will work for nothing. All of that is even more true in Korea/Taiwan/China. They have very low fertility but they can probably deal with it a lot better than say the United States
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Sep 5, 2021 01:08
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What do you mean by "productivity" in this case?
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Sep 5, 2021 01:23
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Cpt_Obvious posted:What do you mean by "productivity" in this case? GDP per hour worked or per worker https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.GDP.PCAP.EM.KD?locations=JP-GB-US-NZ-CN-KR-SE https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm  
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Sep 5, 2021 02:12
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Yes, "becoming the next Japan" would probably be a huge improvement for China. Even during their 'lost decade', Japan still held onto low unemployment rates, extremely low crime rates, and the highest life expectancy in the world. Which is maybe why GDP alone isn't the best barometer for the qualify of life within any country.
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Sep 5, 2021 04:39
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icantfindaname posted:I don't think "becoming the next Japan" is really the boogie man scenario that financial journalists seem to think. Japan has done much better over the last 30 years than the bears predicted. Definitely there are problems but they aren't nearly as bad as most would have thought 20 or 30 years ago. I always find it weird when people talk about Japan being in a "lost period". The absolute worst way you can frame Japan is that it has stagnated similar to the U.S. EDIT - Actually no since the U.S. is technically declining in quality of life. je1 healthcare posted:Yes, "becoming the next Japan" would probably be a huge improvement for China. Even during their 'lost decade', Japan still held onto low unemployment rates, extremely low crime rates, and the highest life expectancy in the world. Which is maybe why GDP alone isn't the best barometer for the qualify of life within any country. I use this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI
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Sep 5, 2021 05:25
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I wouldn't go too far, it is true that Japan didn't experience a real collapse but at the same type Plaza Accords, the QE of the 1980s and the accompanying property bubble was disastrous for Japanese society and it shows. The reason people stopped having kids (and haven't stopped) is because they couldn't afford them. It created a situation where the only other solution was to try to squeeze out as much productivity as possible from a shrinking labor pool. It is true that Japan is still a high developed state but Japanese state policy from the mid-1980s onward has been a wreck.
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Sep 5, 2021 06:02
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Japan is ongoing fiscal and monetary experiment. For example: 1. Should highly developed industrialized nations double their VAT in just 20 years? (no) 2. Can the government run deficits, for all practical purposes, indefinitely? (yes) 3. Can the central bank just straight up start consolidating the private stock market under its balance sheet? (reply is hazy, ask later) EDIT: Japan's economy can look like a spectacular wreck when viewed in isolation, but really they're just in the same secular stagnation quagmire as most of their contemporaries. Albeit with more extreme characteristics on certain fronts. 
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 06:32
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MiddleOne posted:Japan is ongoing fiscal and monetary experiment. For example: ...I would like to know more.
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Sep 5, 2021 06:34
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GreyjoyBastard posted:...I would like to know more. From last year: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-06/boj-becomes-biggest-japan-stock-owner-with-434-billion-hoard It can also be added that like more and more developed nations the Bank of Japan now owns almost half of all government debt.
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Sep 5, 2021 06:39
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MiddleOne posted:2. Can the government run deficits, for all practical purposes, indefinitely? (yes) This is only the case if someone is willing to accept the Yen. Japan has been more resilient to devaluation because of deposits into the Japanese Post Office (which are inflows) but as those inflows slow they are increasingly now having ot issue debt on overseas markets. They certainly elongated things but it isn't actually sustinable. quote:EDIT: Japan's economy can look like a spectacular wreck when viewed in isolation, but really they're just in the same secular stagnation quagmire as most of their contemporaries. Albeit with more extreme characteristics on certain fronts. Granted, you can make the argument those economies made different but still severe mistakes. That said, Japan's demographic decline has been even more severe than the other ones, which is likely to be an even more severe issue. As for China, I would say they trying to avoid it through an increasing switch to more neutral-natal policies but it is obviously a factor to consider in future growth especially if the labor in rural China is "mined out."
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Sep 5, 2021 06:48
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Ardennes posted:This is only the case if someone is willing to accept the Yen. Japan has been more resilient to devaluation because of deposits into the Japanese Post Office (which are inflows) but as those inflows slow they are increasingly now having ot issue debt on overseas markets. They certainly elongated things but it isn't actually sustinable. Depends on how you look at it. In the long-term the trend-line for Japan's trade surplus is pretty drat grim, but on the other hand it is still one of the most productive and in-demand economies on earth and it can either devalue its currency or internally devaluate to keep it that way (which it already has, such as with the VAT-hike). Taking on foreign-denominated debt is not a need for Japan, it's a policy preference. There's no lack of actual foreign currencies changing hands to buy essential goods such as fuel, medicine or electronics in the economy, which is the case with most developing nations (and why they live and die by the support of their creditors). I'm not so certain Japan is that much worse than the others actually, they just started out from a stronger position. Germany doesn't maintain its infrastructure, France is politically unstable at all times, Italy has an absurdly diverged economy geographically, the UK wants to kick out all its immigrants and join Japan on the demography ride and so on. The Netherlands is another big example I omitted from the graph. Extremely productive and developed economy, but also stagnating and aging fast.
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Sep 5, 2021 07:12
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Ardennes posted:I wouldn't go too far, it is true that Japan didn't experience a real collapse but at the same type Plaza Accords, the QE of the 1980s and the accompanying property bubble was disastrous for Japanese society and it shows. The reason people stopped having kids (and haven't stopped) is because they couldn't afford them. So like the West?
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Sep 5, 2021 07:33
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MiddleOne posted:Depends on how you look at it. In the long-term the trend-line for Japan's trade surplus is pretty drat grim, but on the other hand it is still one of the most productive and in-demand economies on earth and it can either devalue its currency or internally devaluate to keep it that way (which it already has, such as with the VAT-hike). Taking on foreign-denominated debt is not a need for Japan, it's a policy preference. There's no lack of actual foreign currencies changing hands to buy essential goods such as fuel, medicine or electronics in the economy, which is the case with most developing nations (and why they live and die by the support of their creditors). I would say Japan is more extreme in that its demographic crisis preceded them and a part of the issue its in productivity because is pushing even more from a smarter pool of workers which is accelerating the process. More taxes won't help the situation and devaluation will only go so far because it is marginal as far as its balance of trade. Obviously, other developed economies have the same issues but immigration is at least a partial outlet. Also, they have to take on US debt because it has a surplus with the US, it could be called a preference but there is so much history built up, I would say it is structural. They aren't dependent on "hard currency" but they are slowing being pushed into a more and more unsustainable position. punk rebel ecks posted:So like the West? Politically and economically Japan was apart of the Western system, but perhaps less...pluralistic.
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Sep 5, 2021 07:53
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