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Sir John Falstaff posted:I tend to think a thread like that should be shut down anyway. A thread about debating the policies of the Biden Administration, sure (although possibly a bit broad), but a thread that is just about "Democrats are terrible" is by its nature taking a position on the topic before the discussion has begun. Yeah that's not the title or framing I would probably use, it'd be more along the lines of "policy failures of the Dems/Biden admin and what we can do to address them" so it leaves room for actual discussion toward a positive end and isn't just yelling into the void. That'd still be a very broad topic. There is plenty to criticize. I'm just pushing back against the narrative that D&D mods are out to punish anyone who says mean things about the Democrats. edit: Deteriorata posted:Yeah, I'd argue the same. It would be an unfocused platform for ranting, because there was no particular topic to debate or discuss. I mean, a deep dive into the end of the eviction moratorium would be a good, narrow thread topic. I don't personally have the background to do a good OP. Thing is, there have been plenty of posts about that in USNews. My point is that posters could always just make a spinoff thread to go deep on particular topics that are critical of Biden/Dems but often times it just ends up in USNews. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 4, 2021 |
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Sep 4, 2021 02:48
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Fritz the Horse posted:Yeah that's not the title or framing I would probably use, it'd be more along the lines of "policy failures of the Dems/Biden admin and what we can do to address them" so it leaves room for actual discussion toward a positive end and isn't just yelling into the void. That'd still be a very broad topic. I'm curious what you would criticize the mods for outside of ideologically aligned rules enforcement.
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Sep 4, 2021 02:53
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If this is supposed to be the more serious "Debate and Discussion" forum there need to be even-handed rules for the serious threads, but they should be focused on the discussion and not the poster. "Bad faith" shouldn't be a magic word to shut down a poster whose opinion you don't like. Goons putting words in other goons' mouths should be shut down. Answering with 5 paragraphs that somehow say nothing should be called out. If it's "debate" then act like it. That said I'm not sure how you'd pick a mod out of the people left. If it's just a less nihilistic politics forum then accept it and base the rules around that. I'm pretty sure we used to have rules against doomposting and nothingmatters and the forum didn't die then. It's not like it's not an option. It would just make the place seem less "serious."
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Sep 4, 2021 02:57
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Herstory Begins Now posted:seems like a big mistake to open this thread to forum banned people, tbh Discendo Vox posted:The effect is that other users of the forum are more hesitant to participate because the forumbanned users are continuing the patterns of behavior that got them forumbanned. Doctor Butts posted:I can't believe assholes like YMB are allowed to voice their opinions on what would make D&D good. They're one of the first people who have had to have been cast out into the fire for repeated abusive shitposting. Correct on all accounts. It's not disagreement that people have a problem with, its folks who constantly act like assholes with anger management issues. Many of the ideas being thrown around only enable more rear end in a top hat behavior or force people to be exposed to it. If you don't stop it here and now, you're going to see it all over the rest of the forums.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:02
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's important to solicit feedback from people who will never be allowed to participate in dnd again because they just could not stop trolling and being aggro dickheads to people? By this logic, you shouldn't solicit feedback from former mods or IKs because they were part of the problems that led to this thread being necessary.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:06
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it is bitterly funny that criticism of dnd being an echo chamber is answered with calls to exclude those making that criticism. really on the nose, there.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:08
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Several years ago I repeatedly shut down two climate denialist posters in the climate change thread, dunking on them for posting ridiculous bullshit, and when they were subsequently moderated in late 2019 they went out of their way to misconstrue my posts, weaponize my rap sheet, and eventually have Cyrano forum ban me from D&D, as the best form of revenge they could muster as janitors. One of them has since resigned, based on their resignation letter because they don't understand what a moderator is supposed to do. The current self-appointed IK of the climate thread happily and swiftly shuts down any discussion which isn't explicitly "sunny ways"  which has lead to a chilling effect and virtually every poster there migrating over to the CSPAM thread in response, where they can enjoy lively discussion of all manner of climate related news while the D&D thread barely manages a few posts a day. This authoritarian attitude towards managing the discourse is so extreme, that when I cross-posted a particularly funny unsourced quote elsewhere, they investigated a 2003 regdate account as being my parachute. "Moderating" should not involve shutting down legitimate discussion just because the janitorial crew doesn't like the tone of it, unless it involves legitimately offensive topics such as cough a forum openly endorsing genocide cough, denial of science, advocating criminal activity, etc etc etc. It is not a challenge to differentiate between "opinions you don't agree with" and "opinions which are reprehensible", except for the current mod & IK crew I guess? I've seen the tactics taken in the D&D climate thread: declaring an entire half of the conversation as invalid for discussion and threadban or probation worthy (in this case, the viewpoint that the biosphere is totally hosed, and irreparably so), bleeding out into quite a few other threads here under the current moderation crew and I expect it will continue the user exodus to CSPAM if matters are not taken in hand and D&D turned into less of an echo chamber for the moderators. Alternatively, you could rename the forum to "Managed Debate" and remake all the threads into a heavily moderated debate-style forum on particular topics, as this is closer to what the current mod team seems to want to run - rather than what D&D was before they took over. Move the general-interest threads out to SAC and other such places and leave CSPAM as the successor to what D&D was a decade ago. I doubt this would be very successful. Finally, you should explicitly demod Fool of Sound, most of these issues and dysfunction with D&D have arisen under their tenure as mod here. I can only assume they get off on the power trip involved in the "ramping" policy which has become so prevalent even as they've clamped down on discussion, and that's far from the character you want in a moderator. This is where some witty basement dweller dredges up something from my rap sheet, and uses it to dismiss everything I just wrote - as if they're the first person to think that's a sick burn. 
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Sep 4, 2021 03:09
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The idea that fool of sound and MPF are “climate denialists” is loving insane. The problem with D&D is that we have people who will post poo poo like that with a straight face. More broadly, Athanatos posted:Read things you enjoy and don't waste your time on bullshit in life. Value your time.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:15
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Unoriginal Name posted:I'm curious what you would criticize the mods for outside of ideologically aligned rules enforcement. My post there is saying there's plenty of criticize regarding the Dems and Biden admin. To respond to your question though, I think there should be more enforcement of D&D rules. I barely even bother to skim USNews anymore because it's a whole lot of petty squabbling and semi-shitposts. The signal:noise is terrible, it's not actually a good place to get US News from. Same with the D&D Covid thread. I followed it closely most of 2020 because there was good science info and discussion there but now it's a lot of doomerism and some disinfo. I have to spend a lot of time wading through poo poo before I get to anything valuable or interesting. If D&D is to be the seriouspost pedant forum, let it be that way. Effortposts are good! Disagreement is good! Lame snipes and tedious back-and-forths between posters aren't actually interesting. I would like to see more spinoff threads and deep-dives into topics. We've had some great poo poo posted here by people who have expertise or invested a ton of time/energy into their threads but they often fall off the front page because people would rather stir up petty internet drama than talk about cool stuff. A couple random examples: The Presidents Thread - deep dive into presidential history https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3849787&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 The Flag Nerd Thread - https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3928619&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 Give me more of that. And policy deep dives please. Less of the toxic bickering.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:15
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You know what, there should just be a CSPAM subforum where posting without punctuation and complete sentences gets you a sixer. Problem solved.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:16
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Verus posted:You know what, there should just be a CSPAM subforum where posting without punctuation and complete sentences gets you a sixer. Problem solved. ah, the good old days Make it a D&D subforum though. Advanced Debate & Discussion 2nd Edition
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Sep 4, 2021 03:20
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Rime posted:This is where some witty basement dweller dredges up something from my rap sheet, and uses it to dismiss everything I just wrote - as if they're the first person to think that's a sick burn. I wouldn't have looked if you didn't say something and good god you're a racist piece of poo poo.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:23
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I'll throw my hat into the ring to mod. I will only probe people for saying in 5000 words what could have easily been said in 150.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:33
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Bring back USPol.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:33
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Mellow Seas posted:The idea that fool of sound and MPF are “climate denialists” is loving insane. Well you sure showed us with this winning counter-argument. This is definitely the type of posting D&D needs more of: flat out rejection of any questioning of the status quo as "insane".
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Sep 4, 2021 03:34
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Harik posted:Well you sure showed us with this winning counter-argument. This is definitely the type of posting D&D needs more of: flat out rejection of any questioning of the status quo as "insane". They're just helpfully demonstrating the desired echo chamber effect in real-time for us.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:36
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Unoriginal Name posted:That post accurately describes how to post in D&D. Advice like "don't directly insult people or get overly invested in your responses" is exactly what allows Ytlaya to be a better poster in both D&D and CSPAM than, say, you. 500 good dogs posted:Ytlaya seems like a smart guy with good posts and sounds like a great candidate for D&D moderator. Agree that both Ytlaya & joepinetree would make great mods. Also agree that there should be two uspol threads, one for point-n-laffing at rando chuds and the other for discussion about the political party currently in power. I don't like the idea of Dems Good/Dems Bad parallel threads bc if this is a place to debate & discuss then segregating by sycophancy seems counterproductive and further constricting what's already a p. small echo chamber.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:42
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Let's call it there for a bit, we'll come back after a while and I'll let fresh people post in here with suggestions on who I should mod instead of what this is. Edit: If your free time to give an opinion doesnt vibe with when this is open just PM me. Double Edit: This Pathfinder game that just came out is pretty good? Triple edit: I have lots of PMs I will respond to at some point in my life. Fake 4th edit: There has been a smattering of actual mod suggestions, so thank you for those.
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Sep 4, 2021 03:42
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Alright, open again, but lets do this to start: If you have posted in this thread before this post, hold off commenting anymore for now. Let anyone who hasn't had a say get their words in so the conversation is not dominated by the same 10 people. Maybe nobody else gives a gently caress and the thread is a ghost town for a while, and that's fine, I'll open it back up for everyone at some point. As always, my PMs are still open. About 20 folks in there have given suggestions and told me I'm a moron who sucks, so there is good interaction and help for me there too. I'll make a big post when this re-opens for everyone to freely post again. If you don't read this post I'm setting your probe timer to 2021-09-08 12:12:12. Let me reiterate this here: Describe what you think the largest issue facing D&D is, then nominate a moderator who you think could work towards addressing that issue. Back to Pathfinder.
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Sep 4, 2021 15:53
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Willa Rogers posted:Agree that both Ytlaya & joepinetree would make great mods. Agreed on all this. I'm not against folks pointing and laughing at random chuds but it seems to dominate uspol and unlike other, more relevant topics, never gets forced to move to its own thread. Ytlaya is an insightful poster and would make a good mod if they wanted to take up that mantle.
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Sep 4, 2021 16:03
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hmm.... i would suggest that the problem with DnD moderation lies with apparent fact of being conducted according to the whims of hooting gremlins, reacting to every opinion that could, in the rage-fuelled psychosis that is the liberal brain, be interpreted as controversial. it seems like a weird suggestion to me that a supposedly apolitical debate forum should have an ideologically curated list of topics and opinions that specifically may not be discussed the suppression of chosen opinions has led to a situation where threads that used to get dozens of posts per day, like the middle east thread are now practically dead, with one or two posts per day. posters forumsbanned and driven out by the threat of saying something verboten now post on an entirely different forum, and the supposedly fyad-lite middle east thread nowadays gets three times the number posts, many of them far more informative and effort than anything DnD now produces this is an incredibly stupid situation. the DnD moderation has through its policies produced two ideologically delineated spaces for discussion of the same topics. how to even begin fixing the current state of affairs is a monumentally stupid task, but perhaps appointing an unpaid intern to be berated by the currently resident moderation team might forestal the theatrical opening of the crisis rear end in a top hat by a couple of months. prior to of course his resignation amid a mental breakdown due to psychic murder by a former moderator maine painfram,e. i thus nominuate Raskolnikov38 for this role of ritual sacrifice, or should he refuse, MSDOS KAPITAL might be stupid enough to say yes
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Sep 4, 2021 16:05
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leon trotsky is also fine, and there will also be a thematic option available for the sacrificial ritual
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Sep 4, 2021 16:15
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Willa Rogers posted:Agree that both Ytlaya & joepinetree would make great mods.
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Sep 4, 2021 16:22
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I know it was already shotdown but I think under no circumstances should c-spam or DnD have an admin unless Mr. Guyovich decides to come back of course. We should just codify the DnD and c-spam split with the new mods, people might be upset in the short term but everyone will be happier overall. With that in mind I'd recommend how are u and Raenir Salazar as mods
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Sep 4, 2021 16:29
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As was mentioned before this post should disqualify Ytlaya from being considered. It's also not theoretical, their posts in D&D clearly follow this formula. In particular the quoting of people you agree with to condescendingly talk about the people you disagree with instead of engaging directly is highly disruptive to any kind of constructive conversation. [EDIT] And to clarify, having a constructive debate is very clearly not one of their priorities, which absolutely should be the case for a D&D mod. true.spoon fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 4, 2021 |
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Sep 4, 2021 16:40
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I'd like to second/third how are u and Raenir Salazar.
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Sep 4, 2021 16:54
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true.spoon posted:As was mentioned before this post should disqualify Ytlaya from being considered. It's also not theoretical, their posts in D&D clearly follow this formula. In particular the quoting of people you agree with to condescendingly talk about the people you disagree with instead of engaging directly is highly disruptive to any kind of constructive conversation. that is beautiful avatar alignment tho, and will naturally be taken to account in mod choice
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Sep 4, 2021 17:28
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I don't think the issue is solvable given the state of discourse here and elsewhere. Rigid no tolerance rules insure that only the most polite strained conversation is sustained, but it is hard to not have no tolerance rules when discourse is so utterly poisoned and no good faith understanding exists. So, gently caress it. Make a reasonable person like Swindler mod, and have this be the Twitter RSS for liberals and centrists. CSPAM is the Twitter RSS for leftists. Have no tolerance rules and end the stupid QCS relitigation every 2 weeks. I won't post here or cspam, and that's alright, because there is no good political discussion on this board, just lukewarm sensible chuckle at GOP fails liberal heterodoxy or screaming pants making GBS threads IT guy leftist.
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Sep 4, 2021 17:49
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In my opinion many of the posts in this thread are very representative of the problems that face D&D as a whole and USNews and its adjacent threads in particular. As with so many other places there's become such a radicalization of viewpoints and aggressive purging of those who are not ideologically pure that you get a situation where people who just a few years ago would easily agree on things are now seeing red when they look at each other, and as is often the case with such things, the further away from the baseline the more radicalized people become. Suggestions like "Make a pro-democract thread and an anti-democrat thread" only make sense when you don't think about it. Or a "Liberal thread" vs a "Leftist thread". What's going to happen when the posters don't filter into those threads in the manner that certain people clearly think that they should. When you're at a point where "Explaining why X happens" now means "Saying X is okay/good" then there's a complete dissolution of anything approaching calmness or even rationality, as much as I don't like using that term. Sure, make a Pro-Democratic Party thread an be stupefied when almost no one actually posts in it seriously. Then bitch about how the "Leftist politics thread" almost immediately becomes USNews/USPol again. Each past attempt of politics segregation or narrow focus on News vs Politics in the last few years has resulted in the same thing. USNews a few years back was a 'Only talk about headlines' thread that came down very hard on any discussion of those headlines after the fact, resulting in a thread that was practically stationary whereas the USPol thread was just as active and combative as always. As for new mod suggestions I have none, nor do I think that's the answer right now. That's just trying to stick a finger in a levee as it starts to give way. Former D&D mods and IKs have always complained about a lack of admin support and the "I Can't Believe It's Not Doxxing" stuff that's been half-ignored isn't making it any easier for them. My suggestion is in regards to how, not who. Forums are not a democracy. Let the mods come down hard on people. Don't listen to the excessively loud vocal minority that are screaming about how they're being silenced. Don't just take their word, get proof and look into that proof. If you don't have the time to do that? Fine. That's why D&D would need an admin. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 4, 2021 |
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Sep 4, 2021 18:14
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lollontee posted:hmm.... i would suggest that the problem with DnD moderation lies with apparent fact of being conducted according to the whims of hooting gremlins, reacting to every opinion that could, in the rage-fuelled psychosis that is the liberal brain, be interpreted as controversial. the forum banned user (who is forum banned for a single post that manages to combine "there is no genocide" and "the CIA caused the uighur crackdown" in one incredible sentence): it is the liberal brain that is full of rage-fueled psychosis. and there's the entire problem with this thread, D&D, and SA in a nutshell: the collective mod, admin and site owner indifference to radicalization has created an ecosystem where self reflection went by the wayside years ago. because just staying part of the in group and raging at each other is never enough, the rage must be aimed outwards. fortunately, unlike actual Republicans, the melty libs are right next door and an easy target, and so everyone who is merely in between the 80th and 99th percentile of the American left gets to be doxxed or harassed until they vacate. since the moderation of D&D *is* currently at the whim of hooting gremlins - who else would take this hosed up job with no admin support? - there's no pushback, so the fact that there are actual rage-fueled psychotics blind quoting everything in cspam right now goes unremarked upon. this is fine. anyway, looking forward to this thread providing some excellent solutions, like the last few times it was posted and then completely ignored.
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Sep 4, 2021 18:50
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The biggest issue with DnD discourse, in my opinion, is posters not actually responding to what another poster says. I'm not sure it's actually an intentional motte and bailey routine, but that's how it effectively turns out. People vent and put out some exaggerated hot takes, someone else corrects an exaggeration, and the result is that person is treated as if they are a full-throated, flag-waving supporter of whatever was being railed against. This is used to push the discourse more and more extreme as anyone who disagrees on a minor point (but in reality is 90%+ in agreement) gets screamed at if they do so much as try to add any nuance to the most extreme language being pushed. That and there appears to be no effort (or insufficient effort, lately) to stop people who are very obviously posting the most inflammatory take they can think of with the intent of riling up their posting enemies. Pushing back against those takes inevitably spawns a "so basically what you're saying is <not what was said>" or "imagine thinking <not what was said>" I for some reason I can't find the thread but recently there was a DnD 4e thread in QCS where you (Ath) very accurately identified a person who was complaining about getting probed for not liking 4e was actually probed not for the criticism but because they did it in an rear end in a top hat, inflammatory way that was clearly meant to just stir poo poo. This is the same situation here, people complaining about being punished for criticizing democrats are doing the exact same thing. People aren't getting banned/probed for not liking democrats, they're getting banned/probed because they're being toxic assholes who aren't participating in discussions they're just trying to dunk on/ rile up people they disagree with.
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Sep 4, 2021 18:52
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Whos getting doxxed? Thats a serious allegation brought up by multiple people and seems like a pretty serious issue if people are getting doxxed and admins are ignoring it. The only thing that comes to mind for me is when seven hundred bees was getting made fun of for his race science in cspam and then made some as far as I am aware spurious claims.
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Sep 4, 2021 18:56
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Sep 4, 2021 19:04
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The problem with D&D is that it's been taken over by people who love rape and concentration camps when it's one by Team Blue, and the mods will ban anyone who points that out. There's no fixing this, delete D&D and perma-ban it's current mods.
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Sep 4, 2021 19:10
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Sep 4, 2021 19:16
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Often Abbreviated posted:I nominate this guy. Heck, make him the D&D admin. I want to see how insular and paranoid this poo poo can get. buddy, remove the massive beam from thine own eye before - MonsieurChoc posted:The problem with D&D is that it's been taken over by people who love rape and concentration camps when it's one by Team Blue, and the mods will ban anyone who points that out. oic, the next set of normal and non rage fueled posters have logged on
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Sep 4, 2021 19:18
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Yes, that's right. We're a co-ordinated wave, not a spattering of dipshit posters. We must have organised on an offsite Discord. It's perspicacity like this that makes you a shoe-in for D&D admin, rolleyes.
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Sep 4, 2021 19:26
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I didn't nominate anyone in my previous post so just gonna say Joeinpinetree. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2021 20:05
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Raenir Salazar is my choice. Always great effort posts, had a terrific suggestion about how to run the forums a while back, and in general has great ideas. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2021 20:15
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Lobster Shirt has been really doing well on the forums since buying an account. They've got my vote. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2021 20:25
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