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theblackw0lf posted:Just finished the final volume of 9-Nine and I thought it was pretty spectacular and I can see why it’s ranked so highly on VNDB. The previous volumes 2 and 3 I thought were really good, with volume one being decent, but 4 is truly something special. The emotional journey those final hours takes you is pretty incredible. I remember people complaining about localization changes, but it mostly seemed like it was just dumb poo poo like "everyone is DEFINITELY 18, shut up" and nothing particularly egregious? I never did finish the first part, maybe I should.
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Sep 5, 2021 06:11
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Has anyone else been reading Tears of Themis? It's technically a mobage but it's basically 99% an otome lawyer VN with some light gameplay elements. I've been enjoying the writing so far and the first case was cool.
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Sep 5, 2021 15:06
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i quit after the first case because the actual lawyering was weak and the mystery was lacking even for a tutorial
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Sep 5, 2021 16:20
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Maybe my standards are just low, cuz I didn't mind it. Wasn't a strong case but I liked the interactions with Luke in it. I agree the actual lawyering part was very simplistic though. Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 16:40
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yeah im 2.5 cases in and it definitely seems to be focusing more heavily on character interactions and emotional drama than the mysteries, maybe it gets more complicated later i don’t really mind it but it’s definitely strange how the trials are basically victory laps since you already know the entire case’s culprit and details when you get there
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Sep 5, 2021 17:10
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quote:9-nine- talk Is this VN good from a mystery perspective? I'm always interested in stuff with a strong mystery angle where you as the reader get to speculate about what's really going on (Higurashi/Umineko, for example).
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Sep 5, 2021 17:14
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dmboogie posted:i don’t really mind it but it’s definitely strange how the trials are basically victory laps since you already know the entire case’s culprit and details when you get there especially weird when they present the other law firm as a threat and yeah they just, don't have any real counters
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Sep 5, 2021 17:15
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Is this VN good from a mystery perspective? I'm always interested in stuff with a strong mystery angle where you as the reader get to speculate about what's really going on (Higurashi/Umineko, for example). There is some mystery involved but it’s not super elaborate like Higurashi/Umineko or the Zero Escape games. The mystery is less about what’s happening than how will they overcome what’s happening.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:57
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Umineko episode 6, writing this moments before Shannon and Kanon take 19 steps Oh no oh god please do not let "furniture" be code for Kinzo's secret children oh gently caress that's why Kanon was so adamant that they shouldn't be in relationships with Kinzo's grandchildren please let me be wrong I hate this theory This all started 19 years ago, when a Kinzo child died, they said this is because of "Father's" sin, I really hope this isn't where this is going If this is true I wonder if Shannon ever planned on telling George or if she would take the secret to her grave With that out of the way, other comments on what's been happening: I loved Lambda suggesting everyone was conspiring to fake murder to gently caress with Erika because they hate her, I loved even more when it turned out that was actually what happened There's been a number of times in episode 6 that remind me of seeing Gaius talk in the chat thread with someone who loved early Umineko and hated late Umineko, but none moreso than Ange telling Tohya her readers would get mad if she starts requiring them to think if they want to understand the ending. I'm split on this, on the one hand, Tohya is kind of right about people who care about Lore above themes, but also god drat is she pretentious. I'm going to hope Ryu07 pulls this off satisfyingly (and I have faith he will), because there is nothing worse than a poorly done meta-story. I found the parallel between Battler treating Beatrice as Beato's daughter and Kinzo treating real-Beatrice's daughter as real-Beatrice (there are too many god drat Beatrices in this story) uncomfortable, but if Shannon and Kanon are also Kinzo's secret children, maybe this is all leading to some sort of commentary about inbreeding in the European royal families that Kinzo models himself on? Maybe? I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into things or not enough. Sorry Tohya but I don't have any ideas on how to get Battler out of his logic error. I did think about it, I promise! But I got nothing. Bringing things full circle I guess, seriously Kanon are you not going to ask what happens if you both hit, that's the obvious next question after asking what happens if you both miss. I feel like it's too obvious a hole for this duel to end in anything other than both duelists hitting each other and both dying.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:08
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Umineko post-episode 6, and very early in episode 7 With Shannon at the reception desk I don't loving know I'm just along for the ride at this point, maybe I'm too stupid for Umineko, I just know that trying to reread everything to create actual theories is going to result in me getting bored and never reading further. Umineko is too dang long for its own good!!! I read Gato's post-6 speculation post and went "hmm" at Shannon and Kanon being the same person, but after Shannon's insistence that they shouldn't both be at the desk at the same time, it's looking like that's the answer. So Shannon, Kanon, and the "chick" Beatrice are all the same person, hence the latter two being merged into Shannon at the end of the Demon Games. I feel like they have to have shown up at the same time in a non-magic scene but actually checking that would take so long... Wouldn't someone notice when gathering everyone together in episode 6? gently caress ok let's try and work through this at least in broad strokes Episode 1: Shannon dies on the first twilight, the body is identified by clothes rather than face. Kanon dies identifiably but I forget the exact circumstances and if it's possible for this to somehow be fake. Episode 2: No one arranges for them to all gather together until after Kanon's death, Kanon's body disappears, later Gohda and company are attacked by someone that looks like Kanon, but isn't Kanon, Beatrice red-texts that Kanon died but if we're doing split personalities that can mean his personality was erased or whatever. Episode 3: Shannon and Kanon die in the first twilight, they're not around by the time people start gathering together for safety. Presumably Shannon's body is whatever double was used for episode 1, while Kanon is faking. There's something in here about the scene where Beatrice protects Kanon's ghost so he can say goodbye to Jessica that could be meaningful? Episode 4: Shannon and Kanon show up together in scenes with other people but those scenes also involve a bunch of crazy magic poo poo happening so that's not proof of anything. Battler never finds Kanon's body. Episode 5: Oh there it is, Shannon and Kanon are both present in the parlor during the meeting about Battler being the successor. Seems like a big hole in this theory. Unless the Shannon body double is alive and pretending to be Shannon but "Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but also someone is pretending to be Shannon so Shannon and Kanon can show up in the same room together" seems like complete nonsense that negates the entire point of "Shannon and Kanon are the same person". Wait, are split personalities covered by Knox's 10th? Ok going through this I've found what could be evidence that this isn't happening, but then what is up with Shannon and Kanon being less than one human each (at this point there has to be more to it than merely "being servants hosed up their self-esteem") and now Shannon actively refusing to appear in the same room as Kanon? I have no idea. Anyway I do hope we're not doing split personality stuff, not a fan of that. To comment on episode 7 somewhat instead of just rambling about the plausibility of a theory I didn't even come up with myself, is "motive is unnecessary in mysteries" actually a common sentiment in mystery fans? I can't tell if this is a weird strawman or if there are actually enough people saying this to warrant calling it out. Also, ah, good old "beat a confession out of them" police tactics. edit: Oh right, also Lion is 100% the baby Natsuhi killed but alive. I know I said I was sure about other things before and turned out to be wrong but I'm really sure about this one! Procrastine fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 03:48
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Just finished The House in Fata Morgana. I almost considered dropping during the first half of the second door because it just wasn't grabbing me but I am so glad I stayed with it. That was such a fulfilling experience ultimately.
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Sep 7, 2021 03:52
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The first door's such a slog to get through, but it really escalates from there into such a fun, impactful ride.
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Sep 7, 2021 04:05
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christmas boots posted:Just finished The House in Fata Morgana. Have you considered playing Umineko no Naku Koro Ni
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Sep 7, 2021 04:07
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Procrastine posted:Umineko post-episode 6, and very early in episode 7 To comment on episode 7 somewhat instead of just rambling about the plausibility of a theory I didn't even come up with myself, is "motive is unnecessary in mysteries" actually a common sentiment in mystery fans? I can't tell if this is a weird strawman or if there are actually enough people saying this to warrant calling it out. Well, yes and no. There is a not-insignificant portion of readers who treat mysteries as a physical logic puzzle, and while they might not say "motive is unnecessary in mysteries", often when solving or engaging with them (and Umineko in particular) motive is frequently cast to the side as a second thought, or sometimes not mentioned at all. What that means in regards to Umineko is up to you to determine.
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Sep 7, 2021 04:59
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I firmly believe Fata Morgana is one of the best stories I've ever read, and yet its something that I think I would struggle re-reading because of so many uncomfortable parts (most involving Michel).
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Sep 7, 2021 05:01
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Gaius Marius posted:Have you considered playing Umineko no Naku Koro Ni Probably not right at the moment. I'm not typically a big VN guy, and I still have to do the Requiem stuff and all that, but anything on par with what I've just experienced in terms of quality (similar tone or otherwise) is definitely something I'd be interested in. Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I firmly believe Fata Morgana is one of the best stories I've ever read, and yet its something that I think I would struggle re-reading because of so many uncomfortable parts (most involving Michel). Definitely although IMO the scene where Morgana has just about reduced Michel to nothing after his story and then Giselle shows up and completely reaffirms her love for him and acknowledges his identity was the most triumphant moment in the whole story, but I don't have any of that kind of trauma in my own life so it's perhaps easier for me to bear my way through it. christmas boots fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 05:03
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Someone once described Fata Morgana as "a beautifully rendered endless pain slog" and that's not incorrect. Some of it is really hard to get through.
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Sep 7, 2021 05:47
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Meanwhile I finished DMLC (the previous game by the team behind Raging Loop) and I would describe it as not particularly good or interesting, unless you miss I dunno 90s era romcom anime.
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Sep 7, 2021 08:35
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Procrastine posted:Umineko post-episode 6, and very early in episode 7 To comment on episode 7 somewhat instead of just rambling about the plausibility of a theory I didn't even come up with myself, is "motive is unnecessary in mysteries" actually a common sentiment in mystery fans? I can't tell if this is a weird strawman or if there are actually enough people saying this to warrant calling it out I had the exact same thought going through this the first time. I'm definitely very interested in the technical aspects of how a crime was carried out, that's part of the mystery, but motives are at the very least an important clue to the true nature of the culprit. Furthermore I feel like history is full of fiction that explicitly calls out situations where someone is nailed because they have the means and opportunity but turn out to be innocent in the end because they have no motive to do it. Maybe this is more of a Japanese thing - I can't say I have a very good grasp of what the mystery fiction zeitgeist in Japan was like when ryukishi was writing these.
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Sep 7, 2021 09:11
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Procrastine posted:Umineko post-episode 6, and very early in episode 7 With Shannon at the reception desk Just gonna point out In the early eps we see Kinzo alive and well in scenes that aren't explicitly magical
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Sep 7, 2021 09:54
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:I had the exact same thought going through this the first time. I'm definitely very interested in the technical aspects of how a crime was carried out, that's part of the mystery, but motives are at the very least an important clue to the true nature of the culprit. Furthermore I feel like history is full of fiction that explicitly calls out situations where someone is nailed because they have the means and opportunity but turn out to be innocent in the end because they have no motive to do it. Maybe this is more of a Japanese thing - I can't say I have a very good grasp of what the mystery fiction zeitgeist in Japan was like when ryukishi was writing these. I think it is supposed to represent the readers/audience of mysteries. Many people treat mysteries as logic puzzles and nothing more. People often just want to figure out the whodunnit and the how dunnit, while not particularly caring about the whodunnit. Obviously there are plenty of people that do, but you can identify people in like mystery video game let's plays that regularly ignore the whodunnit.
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Sep 7, 2021 13:05
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For reference Umineko, like most mystery visual novels, is heavily influenced by the Japanese 1980s New Orthodox School of mystery fiction, which sought to revert to logic box mysteries after many decades of psychological realism and thrillers as the predominant form of mystery storytelling known as the Social School. The quotes section of the wikipedia page sums it up nicely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_detective_fiction Read the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, a foundational book of the New Orthodox movement, and see a story that barely cares at all for why the murderer did it or the psychological reasons/effects of horrific crimes/desires/actions. Instead it's all about this one weird trick to get away with murder. One of the core strands in Umineko is navigating the tension between the New Orthodox School and the Social School (or perhaps more accurately the tension between the flaws of the New Orthodox School and it's current ascendency in Japanese nerd culture). And as an extra note the key to understanding/clearing confusion with Umineko is to look with love. If you're not pushing yourself to look with love, you will miss things.
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Sep 7, 2021 16:12
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It's also a callback and possible rebuttal to a discussion in Higurashi where someone argues that even if the culprit were a fantastical spirit or demon, they'd still have a motive guiding their action.
Chev fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 16:50
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Droyer posted:Just gonna point out In the early eps we see Kinzo alive and well in scenes that aren't explicitly magical In scenes where everyone else present is aware of Kinzo's situation and has agreed to act as if he's alive. Obviously if everyone in the dining room is in on whatever Shannon and Kanon's deal is and agrees not to tell anyone outside, the episode 5 scene isn't a problem, but then I'm left with the question of why they would do so. Checking again who exactly is present, this is after Krauss and Natsuhi leave so it could be part of some plan against them by the others, but why would Shannon and Kanon let them know about their situation in the first place? Oh gently caress right because Battler solved the epitaph and this is important to Beatrice and thus Shannon and Kanon. I think I'm on to something here but this then links into what the epitaph means and I'm still on "it involves Japanese wordplay that I, as someone who does not speak Japanese, have no chance of solving". It's annoying but I'm not going to begrudge someone for not making sure their riddle is translatable to other languages. Wait, no, what the epitaph "means" in regards to locating the gold isn't the important part, what's important here is what solving the epitaph "means to Shannon". (I'm going to switch to just "Shannon" instead of "Shannon and Kanon" because she was around six years ago while Kanon's first known appearance was three years ago, so Shannon is presumably the "original" personality? If this is actually a split personality and not something more complicated?) Shannon is convinced that solving the epitaph leads to the Golden Land, and in the Golden Land Shannon and Kanon are no longer furniture. ...I don't know what that would mean in terms of furniture meaning multiple personalities. Good thing I can just keep reading and find out! gently caress you Featherine you can't force me to think when all the episodes are already released! fez_machine posted:And as an extra note the key to understanding/clearing confusion with Umineko is to look with love. If you're not pushing yourself to look with love, you will miss things. I'm still not sure what that actually means though. I'm currently at "it means paying attention to character motivations and not just seeing them as mechanical story constructs there to commit and be victims of murder", mainly because that's the big theme at the moment. Thanks for the Japanese detective fiction history lesson, I guess it's a cultural context I just didn't have. I'll close off with an anecdote: I saw someone mention Featherine in another thread and wondered if they meant Umineko's Featherine or if "Featherine" is another literary reference like Beatrice that I didn't get. When I searched, one of the suggested results was "Featherine vs Goku". Maybe Umineko takes a weird turn in episode 8, but I feel like power-level wankery about whether Featherine could beat Goku in a fight is missing the point of Umineko? I guess this is what happens when you have extended anime fight scenes in your story about how anime fight scenes are only important in how the characters are affected by them. I feel like I'm not conveying this well but hopefully you get what I mean.
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Sep 7, 2021 18:49
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fez_machine posted:And as an extra note the key to understanding/clearing confusion with Umineko is to look with love. If you're not pushing yourself to look with love, you will miss things. This is one of the reasons that Umineko made me feel dumb. I didn't realize until long after I finished the game that when Okonogi tells Ange "without love it cannot be seen" he's not just talking to Ange, he's talking to the reader as well.
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Sep 7, 2021 19:25
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Procrastine posted:I'll close off with an anecdote: I saw someone mention Featherine in another thread and wondered if they meant Umineko's Featherine or if "Featherine" is another literary reference like Beatrice that I didn't get. For the record, the name Featherine is just straight up a pun based on a character from Higurashi named Hanyuu, written 羽入 in Japanese. Those kanji mean "feather" and "enter", respectively. Feather+in. Featherine.
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Sep 7, 2021 20:44
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Procrastine posted:I'm still not sure what that actually means though. I'm currently at "it means paying attention to character motivations and not just seeing them as mechanical story constructs there to commit and be victims of murder", mainly because that's the big theme at the moment. Looking with love means more than that but discovering how and what it means to you is an important part of the experience so I'm not going expand on what I mean but it is crucial to having a satisfying experience. A hint though, if you're seeing things in terms of method, motive, and opportunity, you're still being too analytical to see the whole picture*. Empathy, metaphor, allegory, and roman a clef are your friends. *Not that being analytical is bad, it's a crucial part of the experience of Umineko but there's more to it. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 05:52
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Umineko 7
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Sep 8, 2021 06:48
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Playing Devil On G-String (G-Senjou no Maou) and at the second chapter and so far it seems to be a game that rides a lot on its premise and plot for engagement, while the actual writing isn’t that strong. It could be due to localization/translation but while the writing is adequate I don’t find the dialog nearly as interesting as say MLA, Uta:MoD/MoT, Fata Morgana, Umineko, Grisaia, etc. Though I do really like any time him and Usami talk. I am enjoying it but that’s more because the premise and main character are so interesting. Also (speculation spoiler) they’re making it so apparent that he has a split personality and Maou is his other personality that I have to believe it’s a fake and the real twist is something else (though I’m also not sure of that theory because I’m not sure that would feasibly work) Edit: welp that was obvious. Makes me think there’s gotta be a bigger twist coming theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 07:26
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The music really carries it. It's a fun enough and decent VN, but it just doesn't compare to the best stuff.
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Sep 11, 2021 10:58
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The music really carries it. It's a fun enough and decent VN, but it just doesn't compare to the best stuff. I am really engaged with the plot and the mind games are intriguing, so I’m still really enjoying it. I just wish the actual writing was at a higher level.
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Sep 11, 2021 21:42
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edit: Removed just in case since a couple other people thought it constituted a spoiler; I disagree but better safe than sorry
Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Sep 12, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 22:25
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Ytlaya posted:^^^ IMO that VN is disappointing largely because there are a lot of really good aspects to it. It wouldn't bug me as much if the whole thing were mediocre. I think it's a bit early to spoil like this.
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Sep 12, 2021 01:25
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I concur
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Sep 12, 2021 01:34
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The callout at the end of Umineko 6 (and midway through 5 or earlier to a lesser extent, I don’t remember exactly where it was) made me go back and actually try to plow through the Tokyo Zodiac Murders. Then I hit the nearly identical callout from the author in TZM, and like, gently caress you Shimada, you made me read through that godawful introduction, I happen to know exactly what trick you mentioned with the opaque tape, so I’m pretty sure I know exactly who the killer is and just need fo piece the clues together for a bit. Outside of Umineko specifically, I usually read mystery novels just to be along for the ride, but I’m sick of being called out as a reader from smug authors from decades ago, gently caress it. ….I think I’m probably further than ever from looking at anything with love, but the trade off is that I suddenly feel way more informed about a conversation Higurashi and Umineko are trying to have around the periphery that I didn’t have the proper 80’s Japanese mystery contextual knowledge to even really pick up on before.
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Sep 21, 2021 05:13
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It's kinda trashy but my harem heaven is yandere hell is actually kinda a good time. Also unexpectedly funny. "How do you know my schedule so well?" "I've been waiting here for two hours."
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Sep 21, 2021 17:41
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nuclear take: colt and julianna from deathloop are bernkastel and lambdadelta in another shard, change my mind
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Sep 22, 2021 19:18
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Seems there is a Kickstarter for a new Hanako VN.
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Sep 22, 2021 21:05
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MegaZeroX posted:Seems there is a Kickstarter for a new Hanako VN. I'll kick them a few dollars. I'm not wild about their straight VN stuff but Black Closet and the Princess Maker game they made was cool. And I've heard good things about Magical diary
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Sep 23, 2021 06:06
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Rockman Reserve posted:The callout at the end of Umineko 6 (and midway through 5 or earlier to a lesser extent, I don’t remember exactly where it was) made me go back and actually try to plow through the Tokyo Zodiac Murders. I Think you're probably taking it harder than you should. There's people who read these books as pure intellectual excersizes and that not is letting them know that they can deduce the answer at this point. non spoiler spoilerEp. 7 and 8 also deal with this Also gently caress the Crooked house, It's a skip for sure. I stared at a diagram for two hours before realizing there were only two real suspects. Not into reading floorplans for a mystery
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Sep 23, 2021 06:13
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