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Nunes posted:I miss the EQMac server. It was such a special place. It still lives on- look up the al’kabor project
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Sep 7, 2021 23:02
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milkman dad posted:It still lives on- look up the al’kabor project I did just that after my post. Turns out my old guild is still together as well!
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Sep 8, 2021 02:39
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Rathe was fuckin awful but trying to do it without flecking is l m a o
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Sep 8, 2021 05:05
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Ad by Khad posted:Rathe was fuckin awful but trying to do it without flecking is l m a o Yeah. We had some exceptionally good attempts without flecking but it always boiled down to one of two problems causing a cascade of failure. Either a split pull failed due to warping and the raid got trained with too many mobs OR the wrong person gets shadow stepped and it snowballs into the unmezzables clearing out everybody. The HP reductions and the Flecking were the single most important changes they made because the length of time required for the original Rathe Council meant increased likelihood that the wrong person got shadow stepped or that a mezzable would break and free the rest. Our guild came up with some genuinely ingenious techniques to mitigate a lot of things, and they eventually turned Rathe to a very trivial thing that just became a question of getting enough people to log on. Nunes posted:I miss the EQMac server. It was such a special place. I do, too. TAKP does a good job at recreating some of that but there's a lot of reasons it doesn't capture me as much as AK did. I don't want to post a bunch of boring poo poo no one's interested in (too late,  ) but I can do deep dives about the following topics if anyone wants:-Other unfinished PoP encounters -The PoP mystery mechanic that almost started a player revolt -PoP's busted rear end pathing that was both a boon and a curse
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Sep 8, 2021 05:38
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Vinestalk posted:I don't want to post a bunch of boring poo poo no one's interested in (too late, Pretty sure a lot of us would love to read these stories.
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Sep 8, 2021 08:57
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Vinestalk posted:Yeah. We had some exceptionally good attempts without flecking but it always boiled down to one of two problems causing a cascade of failure. Either a split pull failed due to warping and the raid got trained with too many mobs OR the wrong person gets shadow stepped and it snowballs into the unmezzables clearing out everybody. The HP reductions and the Flecking were the single most important changes they made because the length of time required for the original Rathe Council meant increased likelihood that the wrong person got shadow stepped or that a mezzable would break and free the rest. Our guild came up with some genuinely ingenious techniques to mitigate a lot of things, and they eventually turned Rathe to a very trivial thing that just became a question of getting enough people to log on. I would like to say thanks for the PTSD. Two hours on a rathe kill must have been wonderful. I know our first kill was definitely far longer, because my guild never filled a full raid. Though we didn’t beat our heads against pre nerf rathe that much. It is amazing how much poo poo we put up with in EQ, but still there is a lot of things I miss from EQ. Everything enchanters did seems just absent from modern mmo design. Illusions that were both fun and functional, crowd control is dead, long form buffs also gone. I know this is a thread about a terrible MMO project that is never coming out, but while I do miss somethings from EQ there is a lot I don’t miss and I feel like people would also try and bring those back. Ok I don’t actually mind corpse runs, but I was a necro and pre-pop I was soul bound in that under water teleport room in kunark. So besides me actually dying being extremely rare I only needed to make it to the zone to just summon my corpse.
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Sep 8, 2021 09:46
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Pulling is dead too, mobs just are presented to groups in aggro linked, bite size chunks
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Sep 8, 2021 09:47
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Yeah, feign death, pac/harmony, root/mez/FoL pulling, fading memories/atonement/memblur, loving Highsun! Hell, training to zone then snaring the mob you wanted... Pulling really was something lost that deserves a place in a cooperative dungeon-oriented game. I'll make a post about pathing soon-ish.
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Sep 8, 2021 11:07
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I found my old char from the Alkabor! http://www.allakabor.com/profile/index.php?id=5860 I loved the bard class. I wish a game would do a class like this in a future game. Nunes fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 18:47
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Twisting was such a bizarre mechanic but it was good in that you could easily separate good from bad bards based on how many songs they kept up. At least, until /harmony became a thing Anyways, bard was a ton of fun. Selo's song of travel for life
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Sep 8, 2021 23:35
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IIRC Paladins in DAoC could "twist" auras in a similar fashion
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Sep 8, 2021 23:40
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clean ayers act posted:Twisting was such a bizarre mechanic but it was good in that you could easily separate good from bad bards based on how many songs they kept up. Yeah I’ve played a bard a little I don’t know if good is the best word more like dedicated/willing to suffer for an abstract cause. On the other side though sometimes you just want mana song.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:52
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FrostyPox posted:IIRC Paladins in DAoC could "twist" auras in a similar fashion Shamans in WoW had to totem twist back in the day. Truly it was all the rage in MMOs of the age.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:59
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milkman dad posted:Yeah I’ve played a bard a little I don’t know if good is the best word more like dedicated/willing to suffer for an abstract cause. I feel like in MMO's these two things are interchangeable 
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Sep 9, 2021 00:27
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clean ayers act posted:Twisting was such a bizarre mechanic but it was good in that you could easily separate good from bad bards based on how many songs they kept up. Nothing like moving so fast that the zone servers had a hard time keeping up with you and not spawn things until after you passed them. Though that might have been my crappy pc at the time.
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Sep 9, 2021 00:35
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bard was such a weird class. you maintain 60 apm in a game where everyone else maintains 3 apm and you can also just make one as an alt with an ahk script and sit it in the corner afk and get 80% of the results
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Sep 9, 2021 00:58
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Zil posted:Nothing like moving so fast that the zone servers had a hard time keeping up with you and not spawn things until after you passed them. Though that might have been my crappy pc at the time. running through dreadlands with selo, getting hit by a mob 150 ft below you which breaks your invis which includes levitate and falling to your death
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Sep 9, 2021 00:59
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clean ayers act posted:I feel like in MMO's these two things are interchangeable The thing is there are lots of things bards do that do require skill expression especially if they need to manage cc or pull. I never played with melody so I imagine that’s a closer representation of what the class should be with respect to apm - picking the set of songs for the correct circumstance, but not having to macro or mindlessly mash the same four keys in the correct order.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:13
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clean ayers act posted:Twisting was such a bizarre mechanic but it was good in that you could easily separate good from bad bards based on how many songs they kept up. That and how they were able to do magic pulling. Fading memories was so busted
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Sep 9, 2021 04:03
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Zaodai posted:Shamans in WoW had to totem twist back in the day. Truly it was all the rage in MMOs of the age. Chosen and Knight of the Blazing Sun in Warham Online had to do it too to keep up their many good auras.
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Sep 9, 2021 06:59
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please knock Mom! posted:Pulling is dead too, mobs just are presented to groups in aggro linked, bite size chunks everquest is the reason modern mmo mobs are aggro linked bite size chunks mischief is currently on velious and i witness splits everyday that no modern game would want anything to do with
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Sep 9, 2021 16:30
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https://twitch.tv/videos/1144104532?t=459s Stream on the Halfling starting area Wild's End.  Which of course isn't even close to being done. NEVERMIND. THE ZONE IS ACTUALLY WAY MORE COMPLETE BAITED HARD. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 03:22
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hobocrunch posted:https://twitch.tv/videos/1144104532?t=459s What's the scale here? Because that seems like a small rear end place for a starting zone.
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Sep 10, 2021 03:35
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Zil posted:What's the scale here? Because that seems like a small rear end place for a starting zone. Yeah they touch on this, and say it does look small but it's actually gigantic. (In their words) "20 minutes to walk from top of zone to bottom of zone"  These are pretty clearly 2 story buildings, though halfling buildings. 
hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 03:36
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OKAY I COMPLETELY APOLOGIZE THEY ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN WORKING... (same zone)
hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 04:06
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Did project Faerthele or whatever ever actually happen?
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Sep 10, 2021 07:02
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Verbose posted:Did project Faerthele or whatever ever actually happen? Yeah it was complete last year May~ish? But then they were like URP this and Houdini that so who knows if they gutted it or not.
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Sep 10, 2021 09:23
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There was a ton of pulling talk so I guess pathing is the next step down the PoP rabbit hole. I'm pretty sure Pathing was always the last thing they added to any zone design and it makes sense. You spend all this time coming up with a theme and designing all these assets, getting a layout of all the geometry in the zone, putting every NPC exactly where you want it, getting all the dumb database poo poo out of the way, then you finally tell the NPCs how they are supposed to navigate around this place. It loving shows in PoP. I think everyone first ran into hosed up pathing in Luclin for similar reasons (rushed product, bigger team, SOE at the wheel instead of Verant, etc...) because the first example I always use for this is the infamous rock in Echo Caverns. Near one of the undead Shissar, you could literally pull every skeleton, jump on top of the rock, and the skeletons would jus get stuck, paralyzed by the idea that the z-axis exists in increments greater than 1 digit. Release PoP was as bad, if not worse and in ways that the dev team had already proven they were capable of avoiding. There are two quests in PoP that involve escorting an NPC through a zone. Xanamech was required to access the factory in PoInnovation and The Hedge Event in PoN was required to get access for Terris Thule. Just one person per raid needed factory access, but Xanamech also dropped some great catch up items as an entry PoP encounter. Hedge was a required part of PoP progression that everyone had to complete before they implemented the 85% rule. Our guild on AK, and I think every guild on AK, learned a long time ago that the only way you could complete either of these quests was by having an enchanter mez and blur the escort NPC. The Hedge Event involved escorting Thelin through a hedge maze of his own nightmares (werewolves and spiders) culminating in a mini boss that grants PoNb access. Thelin had a weird rear end path through the maze. I think the original intention was to have him stop at certain areas and get lost inside his own nightmare, but it was just a slow rear end trod that would often get him stuck at one of these weird intervals. Stuck as in not progressing the script at all. And this is one of the first portions of planar progression. Then there's the gnome for Xanamech. Innovation is this ugly rear end zone where the vast majority of it is dumb trenches with weird geometry. The place is littered with the most annoying trash in Tier 0 PoP zones with unmezzable mobs, enraging mobs, and under cons. So of course you have to escort this dweeb rear end gnome from a tiny hut to Xanamech's lair while he rushes ahead trying to fight every mob along the way. All that weird rear end geometry I mentioned earlier? Yeah the gnome gets stuck on it and it's a roll of the dice whether he gets stuck under the earth, trains the raid, or manages to depop by killing himself. These events were created well after they had successfully implemented the escort the gnome quest in the updated CT. But Xanamech was probably not even the most broken pathing in first draft Innovation. That crown goes to The Junkbeast. I mentioned earlier that Essences of Power was one of the defining quests of PoP and there were three others that were on that level. One was Aid Grimel, the tradeskill quest. The second was The Binden Concerrentia, the PoK gate necklace. The last was The Secret of the Planes, which was a class neutral range slot item. They were all progression quests that started in opening zones of PoP with the final steps in the elemental planes. Junkbeast dropped a required portion for one of the introductory portions of Secrets of the Planes. The unfortunate thing about Junkbeast is they had him as a roaming spawn throughout PoInnovation. He had place holders that were relatively innocuous but always had this winding path through the trenches. Without fail he or one of his placeholder would always get stuck underneath the zone within a day of starting his path. Not far enough to where you couldn't see him on track, but far enough to where it was impossible to pull him out, even with tricks using Boastful Bellow. Luckily he has multiple PHs and a small window of time where he doesn't deep dive through the z-axis. If it weren't for the automated 2 week reset on AK, I probably would have never seen this mob. The elemental planes were the worst offenders though and I think I feel this way because of how much time I spent pulling stuff in them. PoFire had this wild layout of Field 1 - Fort 1 - Field 2 - Fort 2 - Bridges to Fennin - Fennin. Field and Fort 1 were entirely group content with Field and Fort 2 being slightly harder group content with raid targets mixed in. Field 2 was a bunch of craters and hills with some weird gazebos that was split up by a massive bridge over a lava lake. The safest spots in this place were right up against either Fort 1 or Fort 2, with each of these places being on opposite sides of the bridge. All of the raid encounters were closer to Fort 2 and they all roamed in this giant open area with trash doing their own roaming, which made pulling and splitting near Fort 2 tougher than near Fort 1. The downside was the loving bridge. For whatever reason, the hills and the bridge just broke AI brains. They would zig zag over it then skip the bridge and go through the lava lake on a B Line to the raid or they would get stuck for a little bit until the puller decided to move slightly one direction and then walk perfectly fine over the bridge. It was like watching an overexcited puppy trying to decide who it should pay attention to. Buried deep down in that lava lake is a cave that leads to Quavonis Firetail, this big rear end Phoenix that drops decent gear. He sits on this little island on top of a lava lake of his own that is this weird separate area from the rest of the map. The problem with that area is the cave is long enough that you have to swim through it to target and tag Quavonis but pulling Quavonis slowly enough to get him through it is suicide. You either snare him and slowly die from Lava or let him warp on top of you mid tunnel. So we said gently caress it, tag him from inside his cave, race through the tunnel, then perch close enough along the wall closest to his cave to see if he comes through the tunnel. Well Quavonis had other ideas. This fucker would skip the tunnel entirely, go straight through the wall of his cave, go over top the zone wall, and follow the same pattern of every pull coming over the bridge. But Quavonis had the added bonus of if the puller got healed/buffed mid pull or if the puller instead went straight back to the raid, he could warp directly on top of the raid. Pulling in PoFire near Fort 1 could be Russian roulette if you didn't know what you were doing. And yet pulling in PoWater was always Russian roulette. For those that don't know, don't remember, or purposefully purged it from their memory, Reef of Coirnav was just a series of caves and tunnels filled with water, and we all know water makes things like FD and pushing and casting spells awful. There was Depth 1 which was all group content, then you went down this narrow tunnel to Depth 2, which had two large areas on either side with a cave connecting them. This cave was Hydrotha's and pulling him was a loving nightmare. He was fast as all hell and could blind his target. After being tagged he would spend 1-4 seconds trying to figure out which direction to take in his tiny connecting cave before zooming straight to his target. And if you tagged him from outside one of the tunnels directly connected to his cave, expect a surprise warping flurry squid at an undetermined point in time. The large areas on either side of Hydrotha slope down into Depth 3 which had wide open areas and bunch of little caves before leading to Coirnav's area. Krziik and Ofossaa were in these caves. We always pulled both Ofossaa and Krziik back up to the portions of Depth 2 furthest from the drop off to Depth 3. It gave us time to split and get tags for whatever reason the tanks or debuffers needed. Krziik was loving bonkers about his pathing, though. Unless you snared him and baby walked him up the Depth 3 drop off, he would zig zag like mad, potentially run back to his cave, get stuck, and warp. But the best part of all of these PoWater minis was a pathing logic they all shared. Water and the added element of increased Z-axis freedom just breaks pathing. The area we pulled to is just the end of this cave-like space that looks like a textured cone. If the player with the highest agro just happens to drift upwards or downwards or backwards into a certain spot in that cone where the pathing is broke or where the collision mechanics don't fit the mob, that fucker will just zip back and forth at full speed between the raid and the Depth 3 drop off. There was a period where we just called Krziik the Ninja Crab because he would appear and disappear unless we put the tank a mile away from the cone. This was years after they had implemented Kedge Keep which didn't have anywhere near the same problems. As PoWater showed, positioning plays a really important role in what line a mob takes to approach you and there were some broke as gently caress lines in HoHa. You could kite a mob in some of the tombs by moving 3 steps forward and 3 steps backward because they would switch back and forth between which path to take. But it wasn't all bad. Obviously all the above is frustrating and broken and exploitable in the case of HoHa and PoWater group content (more about this in another post). But fixing the pathing in PoP zones led to a lot of changes that affected the entire game going forward. On PC servers it allowed bards to pull almost all of HoHa, highsun the summoning mobs, AE kite the rest, and wreak havoc on the server. The devs posted on the forums at the time that HoH AE kites were one of the biggest reasons for large lag spikes and connectivity issues back in 2003. The fallout from the HoH AE kites led to massive mechanic changes to AEing and agro caps that still exist on live servers almost 20 years later. Prior to the fix, the pathing in HoHa was so unpredictable and disorganized in large kiting areas that it was impossible to AE kite. For PC servers, the fixes had to be made and the consequences from those fixes were inevitable. For AK, though, I would have gladly kept lovely Quavonis pulls.
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Sep 10, 2021 15:31
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Your posts own Vinestalk.
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Sep 10, 2021 17:05
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I am surprised to see this is still going, for awhile there it sounded like Pantheon was going to be canceled.
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Sep 10, 2021 17:05
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the leashing that they added to eq mobs later on did a fair bit more to expose the hilarious pathing issues. I did a lot of leveling in chardok recently and it's like "dont even worry about invis, just run through and jump down and the pathing is so bad the mobs will forget about you before getting down here" velks castle also has a couple of notorious spots where you can basically CC mobs by just sidestepping and letting their pathing flip the gently caress out
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Sep 10, 2021 17:13
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I’ve been leveling on Mischief in Upper Guk and the pathing is atrocious. I think the worst thing though are healing mobs that aren’t aggro’d that still heal through walls. So I can be pounding on a froglok tun knight or whatever and some witch doctor 2 rooms over is casting unlimited heals on him with zero LoS.
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Sep 10, 2021 17:23
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Vinestalk posted:There was a ton of pulling talk so I guess pathing is the next step down the PoP rabbit hole. I remember power leveling people's AA by doing a thing called Shaker-paging. We could get hundreds of AA in a few hours but it really messed with PoV. Because of this we usually did it in off hours or if someone was actually utilizing the zone we wouldn't as it would cause issues. Basically I would pull the entire zone as a bard and bunch them all up. Then we had a warrior with the Rampage AA and an Earthshaker duel a shaman who hit them with their best slow, then I would pull the whole thing to infront of the warrior who would then hit rampage. Since there was no cap on the Earthshaker aoe it would proc enough times to kill everything. This happening in a single moment would cause people nearby to get disconnected. When you logged back in, you had like 40-50 more AA points. It was pretty wild what you could do.
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Sep 10, 2021 18:01
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Nunes posted:I remember power leveling people's AA by doing a thing called Shaker-paging. We could get hundreds of AA in a few hours but it really messed with PoV. Because of this we usually did it in off hours or if someone was actually utilizing the zone we wouldn't as it would cause issues. Basically I would pull the entire zone as a bard and bunch them all up. Then we had a warrior with the Rampage AA and an Earthshaker duel a shaman who hit them with their best slow, then I would pull the whole thing to infront of the warrior who would then hit rampage. Since there was no cap on the Earthshaker aoe it would proc enough times to kill everything. This happening in a single moment would cause people nearby to get disconnected. When you logged back in, you had like 40-50 more AA points. It was pretty wild what you could do. Last time I played eq I played SK and I could pull whole dungeons and back into a corner and the lag was so insane my screen would multiple times show me on the ground with the text “you are dead” in chat but then I’d pop back up
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Sep 10, 2021 18:28
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yeah when doing these pulls you didn't want to look back unless you were wayyyy ahead of the pack otherwise you would lag hard.
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Sep 10, 2021 19:20
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Groovelord Neato posted:Your posts own Vinestalk. Thanks, buddy! To be honest, it's fun to reflect on all this stuff. I think if I knew how much my /played time was on AK alone I'd be ashamed to see the number, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it was the most fun I'd had playing a game. I was like in a bottom tier raiding guild on PC servers and I can to AK with a pretty modest goal of soloing Tantor as a lvl 56 bard. That turned into years spent on the server, learning the ins and outs of a class I had previously thought was a total mystery, and eventually soloing Zelnithak and Terror. Nunes posted:yeah when doing these pulls you didn't want to look back unless you were wayyyy ahead of the pack otherwise you would lag hard. Yeah I remember there was a fair amount of shakerpaging drama. It was a tense time on the server with the old Mac crowd and the P99/PC converts. As a Mac player that started a couple years before Secrets released their hacked client, I have really mixed feelings about the whole thing.
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Sep 11, 2021 09:45
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Nunes posted:I remember power leveling people's AA by doing a thing called Shaker-paging. We could get hundreds of AA in a few hours but it really messed with PoV. Because of this we usually did it in off hours or if someone was actually utilizing the zone we wouldn't as it would cause issues. Basically I would pull the entire zone as a bard and bunch them all up. Then we had a warrior with the Rampage AA and an Earthshaker duel a shaman who hit them with their best slow, then I would pull the whole thing to infront of the warrior who would then hit rampage. Since there was no cap on the Earthshaker aoe it would proc enough times to kill everything. This happening in a single moment would cause people nearby to get disconnected. When you logged back in, you had like 40-50 more AA points. It was pretty wild what you could do. We did ramper-shaking in luclin. I also did it as a druid solo, my far clip-plane would be set to zero, I would pull every mob in The Grey, and bunch them up running in circles for a bit; this was where the far clip plane came in handy, I would turn around, wait until the first mob popped into view and immediately cast earthquake or whatever the highest level spell was at the time while also turning away from the giant pack. As soon as the mobs popped into view I would start lagging like a motherfucker, but I needed to see the first mob to know when to start casting, as there was a VERY narrow window between hitting all mobs with earthquake without going splat and just going splat. Shitload of fun, I did it maybe 20-30 times because it was a giant pain in the rear end.
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Sep 11, 2021 22:03
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Vinestalk posted:Thanks, buddy! To be honest, it's fun to reflect on all this stuff. I think if I knew how much my /played time was on AK alone I'd be ashamed to see the number, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it was the most fun I'd had playing a game. I was like in a bottom tier raiding guild on PC servers and I can to AK with a pretty modest goal of soloing Tantor as a lvl 56 bard. That turned into years spent on the server, learning the ins and outs of a class I had previously thought was a total mystery, and eventually soloing Zelnithak and Terror. Yeah I would refuse to pull if people were using the zone.
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Sep 12, 2021 09:14
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Well, since we're on the subject of shakerpaging and shamans I'll dive into that mechanic revolt I mentioned earlier. So the reason shamans slowed warriors for shakerpaging groups was because it guaranteed the first swing the warrior took would proc the AE dd on the sword. Proc rates were a fixed thing based on max dexerity which capped out at I think one proc every 2 minutes. Earthshaker has a pretty high delay already, so when a 65 shaman drops their best slow on the warrior, it means they are swinging so slowly that the game is manipulated into forcing a proc every swing. This was a part of the big risk with shakerpaging groups, because if they didn't proc quickly that group was hosed. Those groups depended on the slow and that was a class defining ability for shamans. The unfortunate thing is that PoP era shamans were not what we would call "stackable," in a raid setting. MGB made it so one shaman could give focus to everybody, Luclin and mid tier PoP gear meant stat based buffs were kind of pointless, and the agro mechanics with disease based dots meant that they were completely useless. So you just need one shaman in a raid for malos, disease slow, and mgb focus. The downside is you lose out on FA for multiple people but it's a negligible loss relative to more DPS from a wizard or more rotation healers in druids/clerics. So how do you think the shamans of the world felt when they found out slow was hurting their raids? Now, before PoP, plenty of mobs were immune to slow. On PoP release, they effectively added slow mitigation at different levels (75, 50, and 25 percent). But they also added slow reversal. As in, the slow you give hastes the mob at the same percent as the slow. Even crazier, there was zero indication this was happening at launch and no one found out about it until guilds were already killing Fennin Ro and looking at parsed logs from the tank. This fiery rear end in a top hat was getting faster after slow with zero notification to the slower. It turns out there were a total of 17 mobs in all of PoP that shared this mechanic and Fennin Ro, the second elemental god killed, was the first one people discovered the mechanic on. Absolute uproar. Shamans and, to a lesser extent, enchanters were losing it. SOE responded. For a very brief period in January, a message was attached to all slow mitigators and reversers that indicated the affect the slow had on them. It wasn't long after that internal discussions at SOE led to removal of the reversers, but the mitigators stayed in. I think only one other mob of the 17 was discovered during that brief period before they were removed. On AK, the slow reversers lived on. In my opinion, it was something that made AK unique and much more strategically engaging on raids. It's a tough thing to balance though and I think if the LoY agro nerfs made to disease counters came before reverser removal then it would have been an easier pill to swallow for the playerbase.
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Sep 14, 2021 04:23
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Man you should write a dedicated Everquest mechanics effort post or do some YouTube videos on this or something. It’s a shame all of this great stuff is hiding away in the Pantheon thread
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Sep 14, 2021 05:16
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