|
Golbez posted:Yep. Territorial evolution articles on Wikipedia started out as my baby, and I've been working on this off and on since 2006. And yes, the original one had a habit of going viral, and I would inevitably be called racist for my [admittedly problematic, which is why I changed how the map is done] labeling of pre-European Oregon County as "unclaimed territory." And also for leaving out territories, etc. And of course some wiseass always says "what about the native americans" which, simply, beyond the scope. No one ever seemed perturbed that I left out a ton of facts, but that's the internet for you. But this latest version is what I've been working on for the last few years and is much improved from the original. Platystemon posted:I’m the Salton Sea.
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2021 23:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 01:10 |
|
|
Wait... they kicked Georgia out again?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 01:02
|
|
|
Golbez posted:Yep. Territorial evolution articles on Wikipedia started out as my baby, and I've been working on this off and on since 2006. And yes, the original one had a habit of going viral, and I would inevitably be called racist for my [admittedly problematic, which is why I changed how the map is done] labeling of pre-European Oregon County as "unclaimed territory." And also for leaving out territories, etc. And of course some wiseass always says "what about the native americans" which, simply, beyond the scope. No one ever seemed perturbed that I left out a ton of facts, but that's the internet for you. But this latest version is what I've been working on for the last few years and is much improved from the original. Had things developed differently, we would have by now an English USA, French USA , Russian USA and Spanish of USA. French USA would make esperanto the official language. Spanish USA would have a civil war to choose every king. English USA would be a province of Welsh. Russian USA will have a army of husky dogs. Golbez, what I know... It seems to me that you are doing a fantastic work. Tei fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Sep 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 15:42
|
|
|
  While most American maps only acknowledge European land claims and ignore natives, which is problematic, I feel like there's not a lot of alternatives. Not a lot of maps want to sort out which native tribes lived where and track them as separate states like France and Spain.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 17:26
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:
Yeah, part of the issue here is that indigenous and colonial groups often had pretty divergent ways of thinking about political geography, which can make representing both on a single map difficult without misrepresentation. You can do it by, say, noting the locations of major settlements, but that works best for sedentary, high population communities. Shading large areas associated with particular people groups, like the map above does, works ok (particularly for comparison with colonial powers) but it can give the impression of Westphalian states. Meanwhile, one of the few surviving maps of indigenous authorship in eastern North America, the Catawba Deerskin Map, shows a view of the world that gives less weight to territorial control and more to trade and travel routes between groups: 
Quorum fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Sep 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 18:10
|
|
|
Tei posted:Had things developed differently, we would have by now an English USA, French USA , Russian USA and Spanish of USA. You have to go way back to not have the english colonies dominate. They were the only ones heavily settled. There's a reason the St Lawrence river is the only area where french survived.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
Those maps seem to suggest California was 100% unceded Indian land prior to 1839
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Quorum posted:Yeah, part of the issue here is that indigenous and colonial groups often had pretty divergent ways of thinking about political geography, which can make representing both on a single map difficult without misrepresentation. You can do it by, say, noting the locations of major settlements, but that works best for sedentary, high population communities. Shading large areas associated with particular people groups, like the map above does, works ok (particularly for comparison with colonial powers) but it can give the impression of Westphalian states. I don't think that's a particular irregular thing. A lot of older European maps have similar amounts of abstraction.   https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2020/07/the-maps-of-matthew-paris.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Map Before the needs of accurate naval navigation cemented more accurate landmasses into maps, there's nothing really anchoring depictions of territory to specific shapes or sizes. Inland navigation, or even coast-hugging navigation will tend to have many signs of where you are during transit, and what matters more is that all the relevant places are there. Precolonial maps don't seem to be too bothered by exact territorial demarcations either, and it may be that the act of placing big sweeping claims in the Americas changed the way that Europeans thought about maps as well. But also there's the fact that it's not easy for maps to survive from the medieval or ancient period unless they're big huge masterpieces that a lot of effort went into illustrating, while the simpler Catawba map was saved by more modern document keeping.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
Roman maps looked more like modern metro maps than what we think of when we think of maps. Here's the places you want to go, here's the roads connecting them, who gives a gently caress about the shape of Bumfuck Coast or the precise line the road follows between hills?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 20:09
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
All lines lead to Rome indeed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Roman maps looked more like modern metro maps than what we think of when we think of maps. Here's the places you want to go, here's the roads connecting them, who gives a gently caress about the shape of Bumfuck Coast or the precise line the road follows between hills? Presumably they also had some kind of indication of how long it would take you to walk the distance between places?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
BonHair posted:Presumably they also had some kind of indication of how long it would take you to walk the distance between places? Not knowing is part of the adventure.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
BonHair posted:Presumably they also had some kind of indication of how long it would take you to walk the distance between places?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:I believe the only surviving itinerarium is the Tabula Peutingeriana (Absolutely ultra colossal image warning), which is a later amalgamation of multiple other itineraria. This one mostly uses roman miles (marked in roman numerals between each stop), though from what I understand it switches to gallic leagues in Gaul and Hispania, possibly due to the creator not realising the itinerarium they drew from for that portion was using different units. Note that an itinerarium is strictly speaking a text that records distances between milestones, and is a literary genre that goes way back to at least the late 4th c. BC. We have a bunch of these preserved, such as the itinerarium Antonini. Again, because precise visualization of land masses wasn’t strictly necessary for travel, graphic representations of these documents like the TP seem to have been relatively uncommon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 07:44
|
|
|
Or the pertinent details for a specific journey were copied from one onto a scrap of cloth or wood or wax tablet and discarded/erased. I could imagine someone looking up a route and drawing it for reference but not bothering to keep it afterwards.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 09:55
|
|
|
I can't believe the Romans had a city in North Africa called "Caesaria lol"
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 10:52
|
|
|
Worth noting those are only the major roads. More complete map for e.g. Britain looks like this: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 11:26
|
|
|
Item Getter posted:I can't believe the Romans had a city in North Africa called "Caesaria lol" They were much like us, there is a reason they are seen as one of the main progenitors of Western civilization. Have you seen their bathroom graffiti? They even had their own early version of Internet trolls, such as Cato the Elder, who would deliver rambling copypastas in the Senate (seemingly about nothing) that would always end with the same meme catchphrase about destroying Carthage when the audience was least expecting it Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Sep 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 11:36
|
|
|
Private Speech posted:Worth noting those are only the major roads. When you look at a map like this, it appears as if the canal was the last resort of humanity to contain whatever is on north england. I see images of roman soldiers fighting Cryptozoids creatures, perhaps Kaiju, perhaps Loch Ness monsters, building different walls to protect humanity from the creatures, and ultimatelly abandoning England altogueter has the Containement Plan failed. I have images of the operation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DefILRrX77k (disregard the asian looking of some of the legions, they where conscript in the far east part of the roman empire) Tei fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Sep 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:01
|
|
|
Tsaedje posted:Or the pertinent details for a specific journey were copied from one onto a scrap of cloth or wood or wax tablet and discarded/erased. I could imagine someone looking up a route and drawing it for reference but not bothering to keep it afterwards. Sure but then we would expect to find a lot more maps on disposable media, such as papyri and ostraka, and we don't really. Visual maps seem for most people to have been akin to photos on modern restaurant menus -- helpful, but certainly not essential, and thus relatively uncommon. Long distance travel overland in the Roman Empire basically involved taking the appropriate road out of town that headed the right direction (i.e. if you're heading to southern Italy from Rome, you head out on the Via Appia) and then relying on milestones and information from locals for the rest of your journey. Visual maps were rarely helpful for average people. Item Getter posted:I can't believe the Romans had a city in North Africa called "Caesaria lol" There were Caesareas all over the place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea_(disambiguation) Just as there were a million Alexandrias (named after Alexander the Great) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria_(disambiguation)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:22
|
|
|
By the way, I can't remember if this has been posted in this thread before, but it's definitely highly relevant: https://orbis.stanford.edu/ A geospatial model of the Roman Empire that allows you to determine travel routes/calculate travel times throughout its territory. Great for when you plan your next trip from Caesarea Maritima (modern Qeysarya in Israel) to Caesarea Mauretaniae/Iol Caesarea (modern Cherchell in Algeria)! (It took a breezy 30 days.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:25
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:They were much like us, there is a reason they are seen as one of the main progenitors of Western civilization. Have you seen their bathroom graffiti? Now I kind of want to call Mar-a-Lago "Trumpania lmao"
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:27
|
|
|
The other map the Catawba map immediately reminded me of was the one in Vinland Saga, but that's obviously not like a historical example. I also found a historical map that I think is more about trade routes, but I can barely make anything out on it. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52503220z/f1.item Item Getter posted:I can't believe the Romans had a city in North Africa called "Caesaria lol" The Romans almost had an emperor from North Africa named Ceasarion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:44
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:The Romans almost had an emperor from North Africa named Ceasarion. Sadly, that section was cut out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:50
|
|
|
How do these road networks compare to medieval Europe, or to other regions?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
Item Getter posted:I can't believe the Romans had a city in North Africa called "Caesaria lol" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea_in_Mauretania Caesarea, previously known as iol with a capital i. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Sep 10, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:11
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:How do these road networks compare to medieval Europe, or to other regions? Most road networks within those parts of Europe that were within the Roman Empire remained effectively similar to their Roman foundations until the early Modern period. It's hard to overstate how significant Roman infrastructure was in defining European overland transportation prior to the Renaissance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:05
|
|
|
Since it came up, my current mapping projects are the territorial evolution of the UK (good jesus what have I done) and the USSR. I'm about 90% done with the USSR so I'm focusing on that; however, that last 10% is a pickle. Any idea where I could go online to find people familiar with Soviet law and their internal borders? I've considered some subreddits but I haven't hit the button yet. Any possibility there's a thread here somewhere? If you care, my work in progress (filled with a bunch of notes and inside baseball) is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Golbez/sandbox/USSR (and for a true glimpse of insanity, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Golbez/sandbox/UK)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
e: never mind
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
Lol.i get it now
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 19:38
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea_in_Mauretania  sans-serif fonts!!!
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
Imao Caesarea
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
Muscle Tracer posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
checks out, semicolons don't usually have serifs
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
So is that an island with NO reef, or with a Catholic reef?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 20:53
|
|
|
New Balkanization just dropped. (It’s floristic provinces.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 23:27
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:New Balkanization just dropped. There's that ancient shoreline again
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 23:35
|
|
|
So if you go to Kansas and poo poo on a libertarian's plants is that breaking the NAP?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 23:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 01:10 |
|
|
ATL is not ATL, but is near to it. An antitautological map.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 00:31
|
|
