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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I bravely watched the video for you and he says he does not care about fictional shows, but doesn't like it when BBC teach has black celts and black normans etc. Which is ironic because Cheddar Man shows that first Britons were black.
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Sep 8, 2021 17:25
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Mr. Nice! posted:Which is ironic because Cheddar Man shows that first Britons were black. Cheddar Man was not black, he was an ethnicity that doesn't exist anymore
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Sep 8, 2021 17:31
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I bravely watched the video for you and he says he does not care about fictional shows, but doesn't like it when BBC teach has black celts and black normans etc. How about English people pretending to be famous Latin people like the Romans or olive-skinned Mediterranean Greeks? Any thoughts on that? I mean, sure African descended people aren't going to look exactly celtic, but there were dark-skinned celts - in fact a poo poo load of them, I even used to work with a woman who had impeccable Irish-American ancestry but looked like she had a perpetual late Summer tan. So it would be bad history to not have some representation.
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Sep 8, 2021 17:34
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Cheddar Man was not black, he was an ethnicity that doesn't exist anymore
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Sep 8, 2021 17:35
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Ithle01 posted:How about English people pretending to be famous Latin people like the Romans or olive-skinned Mediterranean Greeks? Any thoughts on that? I mean, sure African descended people aren't going to look exactly celtic, but there were dark-skinned celts - in fact a poo poo load of them, I even used to work with a woman who had impeccable Irish-American ancestry but looked like she had a perpetual late Summer tan. So it would be bad history to not have some representation. idk he didn't mention it Terrible Opinions posted:Well good thing black isn't an ethnicity but a description of skin color, which Cheddar Man was. No, black is a social construct, and Cheddar man's people are so far removed from modern society that he has no place in our constructs
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Sep 8, 2021 17:59
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Ithle01 posted:How about English people pretending to be famous Latin people like the Romans or olive-skinned Mediterranean Greeks? Any thoughts on that? I mean, sure African descended people aren't going to look exactly celtic, but there were dark-skinned celts - in fact a poo poo load of them, I even used to work with a woman who had impeccable Irish-American ancestry but looked like she had a perpetual late Summer tan. So it would be bad history to not have some representation. Ah I think you'll find that skin color is the single determinant of race and thus the thing he grew up with and is accustomed to is totally fine when you think about it
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Sep 8, 2021 18:35
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Ah I think you'll find that skin color is the single determinant of race and thus the thing he grew up with and is accustomed to is totally fine when you think about it As we all know all Europeans share a common heritage, especially the Mediterranean and Northern European ones. I believe a quick search of the Ancient History thread will confirm this.
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Sep 8, 2021 18:59
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Cheddar Man was not black, he was an ethnicity that doesn't exist anymore But which could be portrayed with relative accuracy by a modern actor with dark skin.
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Sep 8, 2021 19:05
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Ithle01 posted:How about English people pretending to be famous Latin people like the Romans or olive-skinned Mediterranean Greeks? Any thoughts on that? I mean, sure African descended people aren't going to look exactly celtic, but there were dark-skinned celts - in fact a poo poo load of them, I even used to work with a woman who had impeccable Irish-American ancestry but looked like she had a perpetual late Summer tan. So it would be bad history to not have some representation. Celts were also a diffuse set of linguistically related ethnicities that spanned from the northern British isles to Anatolia. So over the whole Celtic spectrum there were likely quite a few gradients of skin color over time. Though the more northern latitude ones like the British probably did get more pale on average.
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Sep 8, 2021 19:14
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Terrible Opinions posted:Well good thing black isn't an ethnicity but a description of skin color, which Cheddar Man was. No, even from that point of view he was dark brown just like white people aren't literally white. Almost as if it's not just a description of skin colour!
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Sep 8, 2021 19:22
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Ithle01 posted:As we all know all Europeans share a common heritage, especially the Mediterranean and Northern European ones. I believe a quick search of the Ancient History thread will confirm this. Mostly yes? They share several but they basically all have hunter gatherer and middle eastern farmer admixture for one. Cheddar man and his hunter gatherer ilk are ancestors to modern Brits and continentals, and so is the Anatolian farmers that over thousands of years spread farming and a vitamin D deficient diet.
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Sep 8, 2021 19:37
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Britons and Iberians are almost entirely descended from migrants who entered Europe at the end of the neolithic to the early bronze age.
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Sep 8, 2021 19:50
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I don't care if there are black normans, but also, I'd watch the poo poo out of HBO's Rome But It's Sunda Keita's Mali Empire
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Sep 8, 2021 20:18
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I bravely watched the video for you and he says he does not care about fictional shows, but doesn't like it when BBC teach has black celts and black normans etc. Boy do I have a Twitter account for him. https://twitter.com/medievalpoc
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Sep 8, 2021 20:37
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Look everyone knows the Irish are moon worshipping pagan nomads of Scythian origin and/or just Spaniards. Presumably the same applies to all "Celtic" groups. [White people, and by extension non-white people, were invented in the early modern era to justify colonialism and slavery with the definition usually just being whoever defined themselves as such and anyone they were subjugating or in opposition to was automatically not white. Of course this was very granular and subjective so one nation might define itself as white but it's neighbors might not agree with a monolithic White Race that didn't just include yourself and your buddies not really emerging until the dawn of scientific racism] FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 20:47
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Boy do I have a Twitter account for him. he himself talked about stuff like this, it was specificly discussing the casting of achilles as a black guy, which yeah, a greeek from 1200 would not be an african looking guy. i personally can give a poo poo, since unless race is an actual part of the story being told it literally does not matter at all
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Sep 8, 2021 21:33
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Compromise: Achilles can be black, except for the skin on his heel.
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Sep 8, 2021 22:27
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Black don't crack taken to its logical endpoint
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Sep 8, 2021 22:53
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WoodrowSkillson posted:he himself talked about stuff like this, it was specificly discussing the casting of achilles as a black guy, which yeah, a greeek from 1200 would not be an african looking guy. Why not? Black people existed in Egypt at the time, and Egypt had extensive trade and diplomatic contact with that part of the world for thousands of years. Who does this dude think should be cast as Ancient Greeks? Brad "white as the driven snow" Pitt?
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Sep 9, 2021 00:25
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Why not? Black people existed in Egypt at the time, and Egypt had extensive trade and diplomatic contact with that part of the world for thousands of years. A Greek person
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Sep 9, 2021 00:36
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Achilles wasn't a real person lmao
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Sep 9, 2021 00:46
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I know it's dumb as gently caress
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Sep 9, 2021 00:47
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Ancient Greeks weren’t totally averse to a foreign hero at times. Memnon actually is a black African, Cadmus is from Phoinike, etc. Achilles is interesting because he isn’t foreign in this sense (a traveler to Greece from distant lands across the sea), but he is from the far north of Greece, with a distinct association of ethnic outgroup ideas of wildness and unruliness represented in his emotional, asocial, disrespectful behavior. He’s an almost exact model for the antique stereotype of the stock northern barbarian, apart from the contradictory quality that he is also considered quintessentially, foundationally Greek and the incarnation of Greek arete. It’s no coincidence that Alexander chose to associate himself with Achilles. Like him, the Homeric character was xanthe, fair of hair or complexion. That to the southern Mediterranean peoples would have seemed incredibly obvious to associate with semi-foreignness: you might as well turn it to your advantage. Because of our own civilization’s historical associations with dark-skinned people we tend to forget that ancient Greeks and Romans could think of pale-skinned people in a similar way, as being innately strange in a way that visibly showed. Brad Pitt probably isn’t too wildly wrong colored (though with Homeric colors one can never be sure) but he’s so iconic that he kind of loses the quality of being a liminal, foreign-seeming figure at least to Americans. A black man may have that I guess, depending on how racist you are. Maybe particularly edgy antique playwrights liked to stage Achilles in a “Germanic-looking” mask, who knows.
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Sep 9, 2021 01:00
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Boy do I have a Twitter account for him. This blog mostly posts pictures of Saint Maurice or the Queen of Sheba, or other fictional people that are supposed to be from Africa.
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Sep 9, 2021 01:21
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There's supposed to be a whole nest of phenotypes that various historical ethnic peoples had. I probably couldn't tell the differences between most, and it's not like accurately determining which visual characteristics which ancient peoples had makes much of a difference. I don't think there'd be any advantage to systematically only employing actors with historically plausible nose shapes, so I don't really think it's worth getting worked up over skin colors either. Maybe there's some thing where some of the darker skintones of the spectrum that we consider "black" in America would be more clearly be from sub-saharan Africa, which was more isolated from the Mediterranean and Europe, but I sure as heck don't know enough to really make a call, and since skin color is variable with evironmental input, you'd still get into nose shapes and the various other "race"-related aspects. Many historical dramas also make a number of choices on how to use modern accents to denote historical separations in society, but there's seldom any controversy over that, but if a movie decided to cast all gauls as black and romans as white to depict the separation between peoples, there'd probably be a lot of uproar over that. There's a lot of angles to look at things.
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Sep 9, 2021 02:30
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:This blog mostly posts pictures of Saint Maurice or the Queen of Sheba, or other fictional people that are supposed to be from Africa. Have some surviving Roman color paintings! Pompei  Funerary portraits  The Severan Tondo  The absolutely overwhelming evidence is that the classical Mediterranean had a wide variety of skin tones, what with maritime empires on basically every end of it, and that the ethnic cleavages of that era do not easily map onto our ethnic cleavages. There were certainly dark skinned people in the classical era of Europe, there were many dark skinned Romans since that wasn't actually a barrier to becoming Roman, there was as above a dark skinned Roman emperor. Of course this is all kind of just a neat little side divergence from the real issue which is "Achilles isn't a real person, anybody who is sufficiently gay and terrifyingly martial can play him."
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Sep 9, 2021 04:15
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The most believable of those bbc cartoons is the Roman one, though these pictures of people from Africa or decorative art in a wealthy tourist town don't speak for the celts or normans
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Sep 9, 2021 04:31
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Tulip posted:
Achilles isn't gay
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Sep 9, 2021 04:31
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Zudgemud posted:Mostly yes? They share several but they basically all have hunter gatherer and middle eastern farmer admixture for one. Cheddar man and his hunter gatherer ilk are ancestors to modern Brits and continentals, and so is the Anatolian farmers that over thousands of years spread farming and a vitamin D deficient diet. Okay fair enough, I really walked into that one and should have known better. I wasn't thinking far back enough. Also, good point about celts being a wide range of groups. They certainly got around.
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Sep 9, 2021 04:32
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Achilles wasn't a real person lmao Yes he was.
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Sep 9, 2021 05:26
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A black Achilles shouldn't be any more controversial than a fresh take on an old opera, say a 1930s gangster-themed Ring Cycle, which is to say extremely controversial, I didn't think this through.
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Sep 9, 2021 10:27
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I'd watch it.
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Sep 9, 2021 10:34
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Ola posted:A black Achilles shouldn't be any more controversial than a fresh take on an old opera, say a 1930s gangster-themed Ring Cycle, which is to say extremely controversial, I didn't think this through. I don’t think that’s really an apt comparison. A prohibition gangster ring cycle is like that Romeo and Juliet movie with Sword brand guns. There’s an inherent understanding between the movie and audience that everything has been reinterpreted from the ground up, and the differences or lack thereof created by the change in context are just as much part of the story and message as the actual text. The show Black Achilles on the other hand exists in is ostensibly meant to recreate the original context of the story. So if the audience sees something that they feel violates that context (falsely founded or not) it will diminish their ability to accept the adaptation as “genuine”.
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Sep 9, 2021 13:21
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No one alive today saw the play performed in Thebes or wherever in 450bce I guess it wasn’t even a play it would have been recited by a team of poets
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Sep 9, 2021 13:23
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Why is Achilles' skin tone a make-or-break immersion thing but not his hair colour or eye colour or the accuracy of his arms and armour?
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Sep 9, 2021 13:38
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Or the fact that he is speaking English
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Sep 9, 2021 13:40
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Or the bionic arm and laser eye reticule?
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Sep 9, 2021 13:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Why is Achilles' skin tone a make-or-break immersion thing but not his hair colour or eye colour or the accuracy of his arms and armour?  It's racism.
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Sep 9, 2021 13:50
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Guy's mom was a sea nymph.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:43
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Thetis is silver-footed, incidentally
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Sep 9, 2021 15:00
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