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B-Nasty posted:It should. A dryer receptacle has 2 hot legs and a neutral (+ground, for newer ones.) Between the 2 hots, you have 240v, between either and neutral, 120v. This cord is just connected to one of the hots and neutral. Okay, thanks very much. That's the plan I went with; ordered it now so I can verify with multimeter when it gets here. There's a lot of very similar plugs for $15 but the cheapest I could find this exact one for was $50. Ah well, time is money.
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Sep 7, 2021 00:57
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other people posted:We had a guy come replace an old a/c split unit and he became worried as when he was testing for a ground all the outlets in our apartment failed the test. This was a surprise as almost all the outlets appear to be grounded and have a third wire. To follow up on myself, the electrician described it like so: "In reality it is a three-phase system at 220 V in which 2 phases are taken. Formerly, houses in here operated at 125 V. In a modern system, buildings go to 400 V three-phase and each house receives 230 V single-phase. As your building is at 220 V three-phase, you have to take 2 phases (that's why the two-phase) so that the house reaches 220 V." It still doesn't really explain to me why the grounded outlets all appear to not be grounded when a tester is plugged in 
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Sep 7, 2021 13:35
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Associate Christ
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Just to triple check: How exactly am I wiring this power supply to this 4-prong dryer cord? I promise not to fry myself.
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Sep 9, 2021 00:21
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Zero VGS posted:
The short answer is that you probably don't. Check the plate that shows electrical info; what's the voltage and amps? Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 01:27
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Blackbeer posted:The short answer is that you probably don't. Check the plate that shows electrical info; what's the voltage and amps? This isn't a gas dryer, right? This is from a 4-prong dryer outlet to a Meanwell power supply. In any event, I put on my face shield and electrical gloves and wired it up as black and red in the two AC terminals, then I stacked the white and green on the third terminal (ground), and everything seemed to operate perfectly fine. I read online that it's one way to do it but it just won't be properly grounded so I can't touch the power supply chassis.
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Sep 9, 2021 01:40
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Zero VGS posted:This is from a 4-prong dryer outlet to a Meanwell power supply. In any event, I put on my face shield and electrical gloves and wired it up as black and red in the two AC terminals, then I stacked the white and green on the third terminal (ground), and everything seemed to operate perfectly fine. I read online that it's one way to do it but it just won't be properly grounded so I can't touch the power supply chassis. Show us a picture of the plate. Or a exact model number.
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Sep 9, 2021 01:50
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Zero VGS posted:This is from a 4-prong dryer outlet to a Meanwell power supply. In any event, I put on my face shield and electrical gloves and wired it up as black and red in the two AC terminals, then I stacked the white and green on the third terminal (ground), and everything seemed to operate perfectly fine. I read online that it's one way to do it but it just won't be properly grounded so I can't touch the power supply chassis. It's grounded, but you've created a ground/neutral loop which could be a hazard in a catastrophic failure. If it's meant to be wired 30a/240V (what you have) then it either doesn't need the neutral or it's using the neutral as a ground (and you wouldn't need the ground, but I'm not sure how likely this is in a power supply).
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Sep 9, 2021 01:53
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Zero VGS posted:then I stacked the white and green on the third terminal (ground) This is absolutely wrong. I don't know what is right for your dryer because you haven't posted the relevant information, but this is 100% wrong. I get that it works, but you have just created a hazardous condition and need to unplug it now. Ground and neutral are to be bonded in one place and one place only. If your house is properly wired this has already been done in your panel, meter base, or mast head. You just created a rogue ground/neutral bond which has made your house ground (which is there for safety) much less effective and in a hazardous state depending on exactly what kinds of things might happen in the future with your power feed, faults in other appliances, etc.
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Sep 9, 2021 02:02
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There is no dryer at play here, there's just a dryer outlet with dryer plug that I'm temporarily wiring to an AC-DC power supply (the one in the photo with the screw terminals). Can I just remove and insulate the neutral wire to take it out of the circuit? Edit: You guys make it sound pretty dire, but apparently stacking the ground/neutral is how all dryers were until 1996, according to this? I believe you, but my dryer never fried me in the 90's. https://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-wire-a-3-prong-dryer-outlet Zero VGS fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 02:19
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No one can help you here until you post a make and model, or a plate. Period. As is you're setup to burn your house down.
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Sep 9, 2021 02:24
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H110Hawk posted:No one can help you here until you post a make and model, or a plate. Period. As is you're setup to burn your house down. The power supply? Here's the datasheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv18wbtapqvj8m8/CSP-3000-spec.pdf?dl=0
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Sep 9, 2021 02:32
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Zero VGS posted:The power supply? Here's the datasheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv18wbtapqvj8m8/CSP-3000-spec.pdf?dl=0 It doesn't require a neutral. You need to remove that from the ground terminal and safely secure it. This will make the device work without causing additional hazardous conditions in your home. Edit: I have to say, if this is how you're going about connecting that very high current power supply I'm also very concerned about how you intend to use it. Motronic fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 02:37
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Motronic posted:It doesn't require a neutral. You need to remove that from the ground terminal and safely secure it. This will make the device work without causing additional hazardous conditions in your home. I only went for it because I saw multiple sources that says it was good enough for 1996-era electrical code. Fair enough though, I'll insulate/isolate the neutral.
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Sep 9, 2021 02:50
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Zero VGS posted:The power supply? Here's the datasheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv18wbtapqvj8m8/CSP-3000-spec.pdf?dl=0 Thanks! This is perfect. Just for reference the "plate" in this case would be the sticker on the top in the picture. 3kw of 250VDC is uh, quite spicy. What's this for? Zero VGS posted:I only went for it because I saw multiple sources that says it was good enough for 1996-era electrical code. Fair enough though, I'll insulate/isolate the neutral. Whatever sources you saw made assumptions about what you were wiring up (a dryer), and how common dryer outlets were wired then. This is why we always ask for make and model for whatever you're trying to do since we can't read your mind or eyeball what you're doing in person for a gut feel. Your first picture was a good (legibly showed the terminals and wires) but incomplete story. You also did not cite them. H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 03:02
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Zero VGS posted:I only went for it because I saw multiple sources that says it was good enough for 1996-era electrical code. Fair enough though, I'll insulate/isolate the neutral. It wasn't even okay then. I don't know where you're finding this, and I don't doubt you are, but don't take advice from random appliance repair sites/forums on the internet. Fortunately you've asked here where there are actual electricians and (former) code officials who know how these things are supposed to work safely. A lot of electrical safety is not "does it work now? Awesome, done!" and more actually knowing how and why you do things a very specific way.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:05
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Zero VGS posted:Edit: You guys make it sound pretty dire, but apparently stacking the ground/neutral is how all dryers were until 1996, according to this? I believe you, but my dryer never fried me in the 90's. https://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-wire-a-3-prong-dryer-outlet That is not what those diagrams illustrate. It has never been OK to bond ground and neutral together in the manner you describe.  This diagram shows you breaking the bond between ground and netural if you have a 4-wire cord. The only reason that bond is there when your are using a three wire cord is because, in a fault condition, it is safer for the chassis ground on the device to be bonded to neutral than it is to be floating if a proper ground is not available. At no point should the ground coming from the plug be connected to the neutral coming from the plug. Never. Ever.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:10
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The part I was seeing was:quote:The earlier models of dryers used to wire the neutral and the ground together, which at the time was accepted by the NEC (National Electric Code) standards. You're saying that 1996 dryer style would have energized the dryer chassis in event of a fault, but the wiring I did would have energized everything on the circuit, or everything in the house or something? I think I gotcha now. This was a short-term thing done outside in clear weather with a lot of protective gear at least. Going forwards I'll have the neutral outta there.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:35
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Zero VGS posted:The part I was seeing was: I'm saying that quote is made-up bullshit and I'm looking at NFPA NEC 1993 where it makes zero allowance for a ground-neutral bond in the dryer in the manner you're describing. I'm sure people did it because people are dumb, but if it was allowed by code it would have been in the mid-60s when grounding was first being introduced, not in the 90s.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:42
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The ground wire provides a normally unloaded fast path to return voltage. The idea is you tie the chassis to this unloaded line, and if there's a fault in your appliance, it shorts to the chassis and returns quickly to ground, instead of through your heart. If you tie neutral to ground, that line is no longer normally unloaded, and the electrons could decide they can get to ground quicker by way of the chassis through your heart. That would be lethal in many cases. Or it finds a ladder or something resting against the chassis, and now you have a house fire.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:43
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corgski posted:Yes I'm saying that quote is made-up bullshit and I'm looking at NFPA NEC 1993 where it makes zero allowance for a ground-neutral bond in the dryer in the manner you're describing. Yes yes yes. Exactly this. That was NEVER okay. When it was "per code" was before it was recognized in code as a problem (and I don't know exactly when that was) but again.....code is written in blood. It wasn't okay before that, but it hadn't killed enough people to be included yet.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:43
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Zero VGS posted:The part I was seeing was: I think they're saying that tying neutral to ground will energize the dryer chassis all the time. And it would also energize the chassis of anything else on that circuit.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:44
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Anyway if you want to verify that website is full of poo poo for yourself, a digitized copy of NEC 1993 is available for 1-hr loan from archive.org. Section 250-60 is the relevant section. Go hog wild. https://archive.org/details/nationalelectric00earl/page/180/mode/2up
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Sep 9, 2021 03:50
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Motronic posted:code is written in blood. It wasn't okay before that, but it hadn't killed enough people to be included yet. That's a good one, I'll remember that. One time when I was a kid we were at some hotel with an arcade machine near the pool. The arcade cabinet had a grounding problem, and I figured out that whenever I stepped out of the pool and touched the coin return, I got zapped, but it added a quarter to the credits. I zapped myself until I beat the game and I think that's where I got my Pavlovian subconscious to do worrying things with electricity.
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Sep 9, 2021 03:57
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Glad you'll remember that. Now what are you doing with the DC side of this very high current supply? Because as someone who has a lot of experience in DC power distribution in colo facilities I assure you that the DC side is even MORE dangerous than the AC side of this thing and based on your questions it doesn't seem like you will be able to do anything with it safely.
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Sep 9, 2021 04:00
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The website is just saying the neutral and chassis (ground) were bonded together in the dryer in a 3-wire hookup (because the neutral was used as a ground), it's just written a bit unclearly. It has nothing to do with bonding a neutral wire to a ground wire (where a ground could become a neutral).cruft posted:The ground wire provides a normally unloaded fast path to return voltage. The idea is you tie the chassis to this unloaded line, and if there's a fault in your appliance, it shorts to the chassis and returns quickly to ground, instead of through your heart. Exactly.
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Sep 9, 2021 04:04
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"Ground" here is a misnomer. That green wire actually ties to the white wire in exactly one place: your service panel. That, I believe, does get staked into the earth, but the real point of this is to give the electrons a quick path back to the electric company, on a wire that doesn't usually carry current.
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Sep 9, 2021 04:09
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If neutral was wired to ground, wouldn't that trip a properly-working circuit breaker also? I imagine in a properly wired home you can't just screw up a fixture install and end up energizing the metal chassis of every grounded fixture on a circuit but maybe you can. e: Also more content and question for the thread. I have an AFCI breaker for bedroom receptacles with a blue test button on the breaker itself. Circuit is working and energized. Pressing the test button does nothing. Time to call home warranty company and get an electrician out? Yet another easy thing my inspector did not do before closing. Bad photo of the panel for reference, AFCI bottom right: https://i.imgur.com/R7O7J6z.png Inner Light fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 04:24
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Inner Light posted:If neutral was wired to ground, wouldn't that trip a properly-working circuit breaker also? I imagine in a properly wired home you can't just screw up a fixture install and end up energizing the metal chassis of every grounded fixture on a circuit but maybe you can. AF and GFI will, regular breaker won't. Yeah, time to replace that breaker. e: FWIW, swapping out breakers isn't hard if you want to do it yourself. Your panel isn't overcrowded which will make it easier, and you can kill the main breaker for a few minutes if you're not comfortable working on a live panel (most DIY'ers shouldn't be). Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 04:38
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This is very interesting since I just re-wired my dryer for a 3 prong plug after posting in this thread for help a little while back (I'm pretty sure it is correct), but Home Depot basically wired my old 4 prong plug like you did without disconnecting the frame ground to the neutral connection so the ground wire plugged into the frame green screw had it tied to neutral; never had any mechanical or electrical issues fortunately, though I now have trust issues.
PageMaster fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 04:43
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PageMaster posted:This is very interesting since I just re-wired my dryer for a 3 prong plug after posting in this thread for help a little while back (I'm pretty sure it is correct), but Home Depot basically wired my old 4 prong plug like you did without disconnecting the frame ground to the neutral connection so the ground wire plugged into the frame green screw had it tied to neutral; never had any mechanical or electrical issues fortunately, though I now have trust issues. Yes, this is another thing on dryers. Some have a bonding screw past the actual cord attachment point. It need to not be connected. It's a hack for lovely dryers that need to run 120v accessories (like the timers) because they are built to cheap to put in 240v ones and want to be able to still make them run on 3 wire outlets. It's a bad idea all around.
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Sep 9, 2021 04:48
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PageMaster posted:This is very interesting since I just re-wired my dryer for a 3 prong plug after posting in this thread for help a little while back (I'm pretty sure it is correct), but Home Depot basically wired my old 4 prong plug like you did without disconnecting the frame ground to the neutral connection so the ground wire plugged into the frame green screw had it tied to neutral; never had any mechanical or electrical issues fortunately, though I now have trust issues. It won't cause any issues, it's for safety if something does go wrong. I always check store installed dryer cords as I've seen this a few times.
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Sep 9, 2021 04:48
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Blackbeer posted:e: FWIW, swapping out breakers isn't hard if you want to do it yourself. Your panel isn't overcrowded which will make it easier, and you can kill the main breaker for a few minutes if you're not comfortable working on a live panel (most DIY'ers shouldn't be). Thanks, I am considering fiddling with it myself. But, the AFCI is $40+tax from LowesDepot (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-20-Amp-1-in-Single-Pole-Combination-AFCI-Circuit-Breaker-US2-QA120AFCP/205089995) and the warranty deductible is $100 flat, so if they send someone actually licensed I figure why not. Hope the arc gods don't burn up my bedroom in the meantime. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 04:54
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Inner Light posted:Thanks, I am considering fiddling with it myself. But, the AFCI is $40+tax from LowesDepot (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-20-Amp-1-in-Single-Pole-Combination-AFCI-Circuit-Breaker-US2-QA120AFCP/205089995) and the warranty deductible is $100 flat, so if they send someone actually licensed I figure why not. Replacing a breaker is pretty darn easy and definitely the next step from replacing outlets and switches. Assuming you can keep your hands clear away from the input lugs on the main breaker.
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Sep 9, 2021 05:07
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I lost power in my home the other day and I finally got to test out my generator which came highly recommended here for its price and the fact that it is tri-mode (I got a gas line installed outside my house just for this purpose). Anyway the generator powered the whole drat house; it was impressive. We didn't do anything dumb like turn on the stove or hair driers or anything like that, but we had all the breakers enabled and just made sure we were smart with what we did or didn't turn on. Anyway the only issue was that all the APC UPS devices in my house (I have them everywhere) were clicking on and off like crazy. Constantly going back and forth between AC power and battery power. It was actually pretty scary sounding; I thought the drat things were going to fry or explode or something. I googled the issue and it's very common when running a generator and APC even had a "fix" for it on their website, which is to change the sensitivity to "low" in their software, and sure enough that did the trick and I stopped hearing the clicking. But anyway my issue is that I don't feel comfortable leaving it on low sensitivity because it's more likely my stuff will get fried from "dirty power" or whatever. Is there some sort of device I can buy that plugs in between my wall and my battery backups that will make sure they are receiving clean power? I found some people talking about a "line conditioner" before the UPS but the posts are from 8 years ago so I don't know if there's any better info out there on something that would work (plus some people are saying the line conditioner merely hides the "dirty power" fluctuations and that's the only reason they prevent the UPS from going crazy; I am not sure how true that is though). Preferably there is something that isn't physically gigantic because a lot of the UPSes I have in the house are in tight spots that barely fit the UPS itself.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:17
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I'm not sure about line conditioners but the whole "dirty power" thing is why inverter generators are now kind of the go to if you want to power computers and such. Inverter generators provide a more stable sine wave which your sensitive electronics like (Comptuers, TVs, Cable boxes etc.) You do end up getting less power per dollar but better fuel efficiency lower noise (they generally ramp up and down with demand) and the ability to parallels them if you really need to power the whole house. For a no power sitaution I'd most likely not be using any desktop PC that I cared deeply about, a laptop might be okay due to the power supply but not 100% sure on that.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:33
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tater_salad posted:I'm not sure about line conditioners but the whole "dirty power" thing is why inverter generators are now kind of the go to if you want to power computers and such. Inverter generators provide a more stable sine wave which your sensitive electronics like (Comptuers, TVs, Cable boxes etc.) You do end up getting less power per dollar but better fuel efficiency lower noise (they generally ramp up and down with demand) and the ability to parallels them if you really need to power the whole house. I don't think modern computer power supplies give any number of fucks about the line side power. You will give the caps in them a serious workout trying to smooth the power to the rectifier but so what. Really shut them down for the same reason you didn't run the hair dryer - don't leave on needless sources of load. Ironically I bet a hair dryer (or other motor load) would have smoothed out the power a bit.  I wouldn't worry about low sensitivity too much. It just means that you might get a spurious reboot here or there on very sensitive (and poorly psu'd) items. Their hold up time would be garbage. I would expect it from things like cheap tv's and coffee makers, not an expensive laptop or tower psu.
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Sep 9, 2021 15:15
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Redirected from the questions thread thanks H1110Hawk I'm trying to plug in a dryer at work, we have a L6-30 receptacle that powers an Instapak machine I'd like to use if possible with a 3 prong dryer cord. I am freely able to replace the receptacle if that's the solution here but I'm having a hard time Googling this and would like other humans input on this one since I believe the receptacle has ground and the dryer cord does not and now I'm scared. Dryer model: Samsung DV393ETPAWR/A1 I am fairly competent technically, terribly unknowledgeable with electricity. The breaker is off and I confirmed with voltmeter however.        As seen above the dryer has a 4 wire option as well though I'd prefer not to buy a new cord (but will if it makes this work/safer)
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Sep 9, 2021 17:50
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Zero VGS takes notes for future posts.
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Sep 9, 2021 17:58
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If it helps I found a spare L6-30 plug to D-plug I have no idea what that was for, a machete, painters tape, and speaker wire
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Sep 9, 2021 18:14
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So help an amateur out here, it looks like currently, that's a 240V with a ground and no neutral, so it can't provide any 120V power. It looks like the "3 wire" diagram assumes 2 hots and a neutral to be able to provide both 240V and 120V. Electrically you could treat the current green ground wire like a neutral but that would be VERY BAD for safety. So from what I know, that's really gonna require pulling a fourth white wire through that conduit to get a neutral to that box to be able to do the 4 wire method. Waiting for Motoronic to point out my mistake and how making it could kill somebody.
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Sep 9, 2021 18:24
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