|
King Vidiot posted:The only real psychic abilities in the world of Psychonauts that I could see being useful for cheating at gambling would be clairvoyance or mental connection. Clairvoyance obviously to see through the dealer's eyes, or mental connection to make the dealer play worse. I don't remember seeing any suggestion in the games that psychics can see the future or predict random numbers. You're basing that purely off Raz's skillset when we've seen there's a much broader array of abilities out there to learn. You can reasonably assume telepathy (or at least psychic suggestion/manipulation) and precognizance are things some people might have, given we've seen people who can talk to animals, command bees, manipulate water and plants, etc, etc.
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 14:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 10:37 |
|
|
In the first game Raz accidentally reads Lili's mind so I imagine more deliberate use of that is possible
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:00
|
|
|
Two things I really appreciated about the finale, in retrospect:
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:You're basing that purely off Raz's skillset when we've seen there's a much broader array of abilities out there to learn. You can reasonably assume telepathy (or at least psychic suggestion/manipulation) and precognizance are things some people might have, given we've seen people who can talk to animals, command bees, manipulate water and plants, etc, etc. I could reasonably assume that, but I can't think of a single use of precognition for any plot point in any of the games. I mean yeah, it'd be hard to have twists in a series where you have even one character who can just know the future. That doesn't necessarily rule out the greater psychic world of Psychonauts having precogs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:29
|
|
|
I imagine it'd be how some other stories with psychic powers handle it, where precogs can sense POSSIBLE futures but its nothing set in stone, or they're capable of sensing other things happening in real time but in a separate location, or whatever
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:40
|
|
|
Mix. posted:I imagine it'd be how some other stories with psychic powers handle it, where precogs can sense POSSIBLE futures but its nothing set in stone, or they're capable of sensing other things happening in real time but in a separate location, or whatever Or even just a few seconds ahead as a self-protection thing. Which translates into you REALLY should bet on 23 Black at the Roulette right now at a casino.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Two things I really appreciated about the finale, in retrospect: yeah postgame spoilers i think hollis was kind of rattled and also (and i think this was something that was cut down) started getting tipoffs that raz or the family were the mole. so you have her initial reaction which imo i think she handled it OK, not perfect by any means but OK considering she's definitely still the victim regardless. the game has a much more modern sensibility when it comes to like, consent and the ethics of psychic wizardry and stuff and it does very strongly inform the finale. my read of her reaction is like, i can't get mad about this because i did literally exactly this and you're a kid, but when i did it it was one of the most hosed up things i've ever done and i still feel terrible about it, so i don't know how we want to handle that. sasha is much more direct and blunt, i actually think that scene is one of my favourite character pieces from the whole game, thinking about it. he doesn't pull any punches and really makes you feel like poo poo. it's a really important character and plot beat, and both the original agents were kind of underused (also i hate the goggles compared to his sunglasses) but at least they got the intro.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:45
|
|
|
in 1 there are several times it's implied that at least one camper knew what was going to happen in advance, am i misremembering that? there was one line in 2 in the real world hotel where the redhead goes into a shower well before anything has happened and says "it's about to begin, then" or something. maybe it's rare, hard or makes you go insane or feral or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:48
|
|
|
sam's behavior isn't precognition, it's entirely a joke because hollis is visibly hosed up and she immediately goes 'wow this person who is acting head of the psychonauts is melting down, i should probably put as many layers between me and her as possible' and after she's ran off to to gamble thats when she goes 'oh its begun huh' As for the first game, the camper you're thinking of is Elka, but her having precognition was only confirmed in an internal document with all the campers' backstories that accidentally leaked/was in files, the game itself doesn't ever imply anything to this effect. Also she didn't know anything specific, just that 'something bad was going to happen' (because being able to sense danger/incoming doom runs in her family).
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:19
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:yeah postgame spoilers i think hollis was kind of rattled and also (and i think this was something that was cut down) started getting tipoffs that raz or the family were the mole. so you have her initial reaction which imo i think she handled it OK, not perfect by any means but OK considering she's definitely still the victim regardless. the game has a much more modern sensibility when it comes to like, consent and the ethics of psychic wizardry and stuff and it does very strongly inform the finale. my read of her reaction is like, i can't get mad about this because i did literally exactly this and you're a kid, but when i did it it was one of the most hosed up things i've ever done and i still feel terrible about it, so i don't know how we want to handle that. Yeah, I noticed that Psychonauts 2 is low-key very good on issues of consent and boundaries, so that you have things like Raz always asking for permission before entering someone's mind with one exception, and also with Helmut declining to kiss Bob in Nick's body because he had 'borrowed lips.'
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 21:09
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Two things I really appreciated about the finale, in retrospect: Mix. posted:As for the first game, the camper you're thinking of is Elka, but her having precognition was only confirmed in an internal document with all the campers' backstories that accidentally leaked/was in files, the game itself doesn't ever imply anything to this effect. Also she didn't know anything specific, just that 'something bad was going to happen' (because being able to sense danger/incoming doom runs in her family).
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 01:52
|
|
|
Jesus Christ, I wish Double Fine would tweet about their patches when they come out. I could have stayed this one while doing dishes or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 02:08
|
|
|
Shwoo posted:(Hollis) I don't think she intended them to be able to escape the classroom, so she thought the worst they could do was change her opinion of cilantro. Though she does say in the postgame that she still has confusing opinions about cilantro to sort out, so maybe she just didn't think this through.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 02:10
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:It's possible that only Raz' acrobatic take on the power could have that effect, although in that case I'm not sure what the normal version of the power even does. It seems like a very difficult power to use ethically, so it's a weird choice to teach to interns. No, re-watching the opening scene of that level, that's definitely the advanced intended use of the power. The kids are only really shocked at three things - that Raz jumped into the thought (possibly because he's much smaller than most of them and more acrobatic so it felt naturally to jump to it) and used it as a grapple point rather than doing what Hollis did and connecting it while staying put, that Raz left a "slime trail" that was visible to them when he connected them (I don't know why, Hollis leaves a visible link as well), and that Raz then finds the nearby Disgust thought and actively changes Hollis' opinion, which was not something that had been demonstrated to them. I assume the intended use of the power for the interns is understanding a person's thought process and following the links as they already exist, seeing how a person might connect two ideas together. Like how it's important for the Psychonauts to recognize and understand that Loboto connects "snitching about my boss" to "fear of severe bodily harm". It's just that Raz accidentally discovers how to disrupt the existing links and retool them, which Hollis and Sasha correctly chide him for because it's a bit hosed up to rewire someone's brain to get what you want. The normal use of the power though could have been illustrated much better if mental connections in other worlds also had thought bubbles with actual ideas in them instead of just being grappling nodes. It'd give you more insight into characters and since other worlds typically have short set paths, not being able to deviate from them would show that Raz has learned not to go hog wild with the power and gently caress up people's brains.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 02:35
|
|
|
It also seems like a power that's helpful when inside your own head in terms of working on your own mental health imo
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 02:52
|
|
|
In relation to consent in the game, I really love the scene where you first meet Bob and the vine makes a point of stopping Raz even after he asks, making sure to first turn Bob around to see what Raz is intending, and a very sad Bob quite obviously makes the decision to allow Raz in. Also yes, the previously mentioned bit later in the game involving Bob and Helmut not kissing because they're only borrowing Nick's body.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 03:19
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:In relation to consent in the game, I really love the scene where you first meet Bob and the vine makes a point of stopping Raz even after he asks, making sure to first turn Bob around to see what Raz is intending, and a very sad Bob quite obviously makes the decision to allow Raz in. Also yes, the previously mentioned bit later in the game involving Bob and Helmut not kissing because they're only borrowing Nick's body. I liked that Bob's plant(s) clearly care about him, rather than just going for generic "Lol mean-spirited pet". Once it's obvious Raz wants to help Bob, the vine starts being a lot more cooperative and kinder to Raz even if Bob just wants Raz to leave.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 04:01
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:I liked that Bob's plant(s) clearly care about him, rather than just going for generic "Lol mean-spirited pet". Once it's obvious Raz wants to help Bob, the vine starts being a lot more cooperative and kinder to Raz even if Bob just wants Raz to leave. I honestly assumed it was Bob's subconcious control of the plants causing it rather than the plants being intelligent enough to do that. Like, when he's focused on Raz and clearly refusing the vine expresses that, when he turns around and goes back to being sad and passive the plant clearly askes Raz for help where Bob himself can't vocalize it. It's a well done scene regardless!
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 04:33
|
|
|
Evil Kit posted:I honestly assumed it was Bob's subconcious control of the plants causing it rather than the plants being intelligent enough to do that. Like, when he's focused on Raz and clearly refusing the vine expresses that, when he turns around and goes back to being sad and passive the plant clearly askes Raz for help where Bob himself can't vocalize it. It's a well done scene regardless! Yeah, that's how I read it as well. I can't remember where... maybe uh, Polygon? But somewhere I read an interview where Schafer mentioned someone else on the team (the writing team, maybe?) mentioned the consent issues in the first game pretty early in development of the second and he was like "actually, really good point" and then designed stuff about that. Maybe that's why I read the above spoiled scene that way: if the plants were controlled by Bob, just not maybe on a fully conscious level, their approval to Raz going into Bob's mind was Bob giving consent. If they weren't controlled by a part of Bob it's still a situation you could probably argue was ethical-- but not one where Bob, or a part of Bob, agreed to.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 09:00
|
|
|
Digital Osmosis posted:Yeah, that's how I read it as well. Which is why I like that Bob gets turned around to see Raz rather than Raz throwing the portal at the back of his head. Whether Bob's controlling the plants or they have some level of awareness he's helped develop, Bob is being shown what Raz intends to do and it's up to him to allow it or refuse, and he clearly accepts and allows Raz to proceed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 09:30
|
|
|
All this discussion is making me really hate the Zero Punctuation review he just did where he said he doesn't really care about empathy with mental disorders and the ethics of brain rewiring.quote:When we were having to explore and fix the mental realms of dudes who thought they were Napoleon or that the milkman was spying on them and in all it was an accurate and sensitive depiction of mental illness the way Jabba the Hutt was an accurate and sensitive depiction of thyroid issues. After twenty years we clearly want to go about things with more maturity, so this wacky comedy game about psychic spies who look like the cast of Gumby after they got rescued from a horrendous sink disposal accident feels it has to visualise a character’s struggles with alcoholism and anxiety with sympathy and seriousness rather than as a vehicle for a string of silly gags. Thing is, though, I like silly gags. Christ knows there haven’t been enough of those since September 10th, 2001 when human society officially peaked. Speaking as someone with a brain that’s a fixer-upper on a good day, I care more about having a laugh than you paying sufficient respect to people with anxiety disorders and their flag and national anthem. quote:My point is, for me Psychonauts 2 suffers from having lost its cynical edge. Rather than gently caress with a mad person’s head so he firebombs a hospital we must now acknowledge the admittedly hosed up ethics of going into someone’s brain and rewriting their personality. And then we must all learn an important lesson and apologise and forgive each other and everyone gets extra marshmallows in their cocoa that night. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Marshmallows are nice. But I knew the ethics were hosed, I assumed that was the big joke, that they were teaching wholesome apple-cheeked summer camp kids the art of hands-free lobotomisation. And I struggle to recall parts of Psychonauts 2 that really stand out as comedy highlights the way stuff like the milkman conspiracy did in the first game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 09:37
|
|
|
So watching gameplay again and was looking back on Bob’s Bottles. I honestly believe that it is the best level in Psychonauts 2 with regards to being an allegory for the mental landscape of the character. The concept of bottling away and burying memories to protect yourself from the pain and the self sabotage that occurs when you try to protect yourself (the moth) is portrayed really well and I found myself sympathising and understanding what drove him to his predicament. There are also little details like the dark thoughts that lead to the figment or the rope that are really horrifying when analysed and bring more insight to how difficult things are for him. Another thing I recognised is how healthy and positive the portrayal of Helmut and Bob’s relationship and homosexuality is. Both characters have their sexuality and love for each other as important parts of their character but it also doesn’t fully define them. Hearing the conversation they have when they are United was heartwarming and I can’t remember the last time a gay relationship was portrayed in a healthy and realistic manner. With regards to the possible arguments of it being “unrealistic” due to the time and setting, let’s remember that this is a group of psychics that broke boundaries and conducted experiments to find the extent of the human mind and psychic powers. Even 20 years ago, when homosexuality was frowned upon, the group probably had radical views in comparison to the rest of the world and the nature of their work probably involved a lot of trust and breaking down emotional walls and being honest with each other. Look, I just want good gay relationships in media and Bob and Helmut are amazing and more media should follow their example.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 09:45
|
|
|
Junpei posted:All this discussion is making me really hate the Zero Punctuation review he just did where he said he doesn't really care about empathy with mental disorders and the ethics of brain rewiring. Dude needs to read the loving room two years in on a pandemic that's keeping people socially isolated when it comes to discussing mental health.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 09:45
|
|
|
Why would he start now?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:04
|
|
|
Yahtzee’s reviews miss a lot more often than they hit but this one was especially bad. Guy decided early in drafting that his mission statement would be “this game is too grown up for me” and that is a deeply inane way to approach it
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:13
|
|
|
without failure the people i've played with who have mixed feelings on 2 absolutely adored 1, which tracks. they're kind of very different games.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:23
|
|
|
Yahtzee is one of those 'entertainer not reviewer' types who generally doesn't actually have any realy worthwhile insight to impart about anything. I remember really enjoying his stuff up until his review of Mario Galaxy. I realised 'oh this schick is really funny if you haven't actually played the game he's talking about' and never gave a poo poo about his videos again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:28
|
|
|
Junpei posted:All this discussion is making me really hate the Zero Punctuation review he just did where he said he doesn't really care about empathy with mental disorders and the ethics of brain rewiring. I liked Yahtzee back when Psychonauts 1 first came out and it was one of his earliest reviews. But I've grown up since then and it's odd to see that he apparently hasn't. It's also very weird to say that Bob's Bottles is a 100% serious level when Bob spends about 75% of it as a burping, stink cloud producing plant that I honestly found a bit juvenile, even as I undersstood what it was going for (that he's pushed everyone around him away with his behavior). I also think he's looking back on Psychonauts 1 with a bit of rose-colored glasses. He mentions the Milkman Conspiracy as a highlight but Black Velvetopia wasn't funny aside from occasional jokes at Dingo's expense and I regularly forget Gloria's level even exists (partially because I hate it). Most of the levels in the game aren't that funny in their base premise. Psychonauts 2 may not have any particular levels that are a nonstop laugh riot but it's still a pretty funny game and saying it could only have been more funny if it took more shots at the mentally ill is pointlessly mean.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:36
|
|
|
A charitable interpretation could be that art is best when it's skirting the edge of what's acceptable, and that there's a real risk of it becoming anodyne and uninspiring if you always tread on eggshells and refuse to do anything whimsical with what is in real life a very serious topic. It's just, whatever game that's describing, I don't think it's Psychonauts 2. This game is full of silly gags. There's an entire level where a man's crippling social anxiety is portrayed as a cooking show with goat hand puppets representing his friends and a grief-stricken alcoholic appears as a potato man whose breath is so bad it repels water. So that criticism really fails to hit the mark. But also like, I don't think it's quite fair to crucify Yahtzee as someone who doesn't give a poo poo about mental issues either. But as comedy and/or review material goes, this one is a miss.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:48
|
|
|
Would anyone agree with me that Bob has some issues that are deep seeded?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 12:59
|
|
|
Black Velvetopia ending cutscenes (spoilers obviously). Also, Bob's level, while probably being one of my two favorite levels in the game, really isn't very funny at any point. Unless you really enjoy burping I guess. And probably for a good reason, it's not easy making fun of depression-induced alcoholism. Edit: The only levels I would say aren't very funny in Psychonauts 1 are Milla's Dance Party and the Meat Circus, and I like Meat Circus because it's just so bizarre. Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Sep 10, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 14:53
|
|
|
I mean I don't really agree with the quoted review but I think it's a relatively fair point, just not one particularly well thought out. Psychonauts 1's "funniest" and IMO best levels were the ones from the patients in the mental hospital. The kind of people who need inpatient treatment are probably dealing with more severe mental illness than the kind of people whose minds you explore in Psychonauts 2, who like, should be doing some kind of outpatient treatment / counseling. I think that lack of total delusional disconnect from reality meant that the kinds of things the levels were built around in Psychonauts 2 basically has to be more quotidian, because they're dealing with more mundane mental health issues. Substance abuse disorders vs. paranoid delusions, that sort of thing. I don't think that people who need inpatient treatment or have mental health issues that make them less functional are usually fair subjects of comedy, and I think he's kind of wrong to frame the argument as "we can't make fun of ______ anymore" instead of like, "these games are about different things." Psychonauts 2 attempts to be sincere and relevant, about understandable emotional responses, in almost every level-- something Psychonauts 1 really on did in the finale, if I remember. They're trying for slightly different things. I think the goals Psychonauts 2 set for itself are interesting and were usually met, so I'm glad for the change-- but I wouldn't begrudge someone for wanting more of the same. He just chose to frame his interest in "Psychonauts 1 but more" kind of stupidly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:without failure the people i've played with who have mixed feelings on 2 absolutely adored 1, which tracks. they're kind of very different games. That's all well and good but I loved the first game, played it on its original release day, and it's one of my favorite games of all time. Psychonauts 2 is a better game, and I loved it too. The first game did feel ever so slightly more "edgy", I guess, but there was also a lot of heart and sincerity. The sequel just turned down the irreverence and turned up the sentiment, which I guess for very immature people was a deal-breaker. I've matured since then (I was 21 at the time), obviously Yahtzee hasn't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
I do like the game we got but I do miss the really incredible worlds we got to explore in P1. I had spoiled the Milkman level for myself before playing because I couldn’t resist reading the thread, lol. But the lungfish level took me completely by surprise, and so did Black Velvetopia. I didn’t have the same sense of excitement for the head levels in P2 because it was clear they weren’t going to be vastly different gameplay-wise this time ‘round. The art direction in 1 was already fine but wow that’s definitely one part that saw vast improvement in 2. Bob’s level isn’t super fun to traverse but I think it’s gorgeous. Visually I think my top ones are that, Psi King, and Lucy’s craft world. Honorable mention to Fatherland Follies
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 20:30
|
|
|
Psychonauts 1 did a better job of creating mind-worlds which visually communicated the mental problems their owners had. I would point to Cassie's mind as a good example of this. Nothing about the world communicates her issue of having difficulties reconciling the different parts of her identity. However, the biggest failure to me in this regard was Ford's mind. I was really excited about the concept of traversing a shattered mind. What could that mean? Well it turns out it's just a bunch of smaller mental worlds based on Ford's different identities. They're cool, but... eh. On the other hand, The Sensorium was the level I would say most resembled a Psychonauts 1 level to me, and it was my least favorite. There were so many figments and the saturated colors made them really hard to see sometimes. It went on for a little too long. All that being said I can be kind of a dunce and I don't always see what the levels are going for if they don't hit me over the head with it. I didn't fully understand Bob's Bottles until I read people in this thread talking about it. I like it a lot more, though the platforming left a little to be desired. The big problem was the number of times I would land right next to a platform and get immediately sucked into the water. Sometimes I don't get any bounces, sometimes I get both, sometimes I only get one. I could never figure out why, but it was very annoying. Despite all my criticisms I had an absolute blast with the game the whole way through.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 21:06
|
|
|
Junpei posted:All this discussion is making me really hate the Zero Punctuation review he just did where he said he doesn't really care about empathy with mental disorders and the ethics of brain rewiring. The dude's window for content was about five years ago and pretty much then it was a worn out shtick. I wouldn't put any weight into the words he's spewing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2021 23:12
|
|
|
How's the PC version? I heard that there's really bad stuttering because of the game using UE4 and that the game can crash at random. Is it just the Steam version, or is the Game Pass version affected as well?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2021 00:03
|
|
|
Willo567 posted:How's the PC version? I heard that there's really bad stuttering because of the game using UE4 and that the game can crash at random. Is it just the Steam version, or is the Game Pass version affected as well? I played the whole game through steam with zero crashes
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2021 00:12
|
|
|
CuwiKhons posted:No, none of the campers in Psychonauts 1 have laptops. You may be thinking of Chloe, the girl who always wore a space helmet. She spends part of the game taking over Oleander's radio to try and broadcast a message to UFOs. Psychonauts doesn't really take place in any particular real life time period, other than having a very 70s aesthetic. Computers exist but they don't seem widespread. The jet's a bit futuristic in terms of how it seems to work, but the the general design of it is very retro. And also nobody seems to think there's anything odd about Helmut and Bob's relationship. Probably safest to just say it's not the timeline of normal Earth and it doesn't matter what year the game is set in. I mean computers have to be at least kind of wide spread because back around Psychonauts 1 most of the kids had 2005 era social media pages that are all gone now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 10:37 |
|
|
Willo567 posted:How's the PC version? I heard that there's really bad stuttering because of the game using UE4 and that the game can crash at random. Is it just the Steam version, or is the Game Pass version affected as well? I used Steam and admittedly had the graphics fairly low but it ran quite smoothly. Used a controller (don’t know if they fixed that keyboard mouse bug in the menu)
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2021 01:13
|
|