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dyzzy posted:Sniper rifles need some love I think (the .44 is notable for being a good pickup early though since you can 1HKO zombies and fire fiends at max range), I rolled a sniper in UV twice and the died in IO when I tried to main a 7.62 sniper vs. just keeping an AR the second run and cruising through to a win IMO sniper rifles, rotaries and plasma pistols need help. And plasma weapons in general are in an awkward place where there's often not enough mods or ammo to justify switching to them over your tricked-out Europa gear.
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Sep 9, 2021 18:36
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Yeah rotaries seem bad too without very specific mods/perk synergies. Like, sure I'll grab a chaingun off the ground if I'm really desperate and low on ammo but no way am I gonna try to go the distance chewing through that much ammo. And yeah mentioned already but getting enemies to waste their turn moving themselves out of cover is a strategy to learn. Doorways are the most common situation, but pillar dancing can also be key to surviving a tough enemy. And for an exalted pack with .44 rifles, if you can't LOS in one or two moves consider running *towards* them and fighting point blank. A few tiles away, enemies with sniper rifles will prefer to try to move towards you to melee (which is super weak compared to their guns). And for any weapon, a zombie will melee if they're next to you, meaning a shotgun zombie is actually less harmful if you can step next to them. dyzzy fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 18:48
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SKULL.GIF posted:I feel like I'm missing something fundamental about how to play JH. I'm a roguelike veteran but have trouble getting through Callisto on Hard. I'm shooting from cover, retreating from fights that don't seem favorable, using grenades/medkits/stimpacks freely, and generally use modpacks right away. Should I be step-firing instead of hunkering? Shooting doors to open them at a range? Because that is the COWARD's way. Max out Hellrunner early and rip some demons apart. Bonus points if you go melee spec and grab the relic that makes you run extra fast for the "price" of alerting everyone to your coming to the level  .Unless it's time to stick to cover anyway. Do you feel like being worn down over Callisto, or (more likely) getting blown apart in situations going SNAFU switfly? I find the latter is a mix of just learning what to expect of some events/map features and you always having to have outs for when you're caught with your pants down. And rude spawns and gang-upswill happen, it's just a fact of life in this game - and also the one that nominally reasonable cover-heavy builds can have a bad time reacting to.
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Sep 9, 2021 20:44
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bees x1000 posted:IMO sniper rifles, rotaries and plasma pistols need help. And plasma weapons in general are in an awkward place where there's often not enough mods or ammo to justify switching to them over your tricked-out Europa gear. probably my biggest gripe with the game I think the overly deterministic loot drops mean most games you progress to midgame loot, plateau, and then win or don't your perk choices are generally filled in before you get later weapon types, and between that and the mod situation, it's often a straight downgrade, which feels wrong barring notable exceptions like the bfg, most weapons and even uniques late game may as well not exist
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Sep 9, 2021 23:40
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SKULL.GIF posted:I feel like I'm missing something fundamental about how to play JH. I'm a roguelike veteran but have trouble getting through Callisto on Hard. I'm shooting from cover, retreating from fights that don't seem favorable, using grenades/medkits/stimpacks freely, and generally use modpacks right away. Should I be step-firing instead of hunkering? Shooting doors to open them at a range? don't use medkits freely. For the early part of the game you are guaranteed 1 med crate per level and they will always contain 1 health orb. That's 40 free health per level. Nothing on Callisto is going to be hitting you for more than like, 50 damage in one turn, so you know roughly when you have to use a medkit to not die. Don't use them to top yourself up. grenades are powerful and kind of rare. save Gas, Krak and Plasma grenades especially. Gas Grenades will kill any organic enemy that isn't immune to them(and only toxic enemies and warlocks are). Krak Grenades will oneshot most of the dangerous robots and will certainly soften up any of them. Plasma grenades will one-shot basically anything. Frags and EMPs you can throw pretty freely, they're handy but mostly for trash clearing. Hunkering is a waste of time if you don't have Cover Master/Deadly Precision, don't bother. Never fight anything that's in cover. Enemies will abandon cover to chase you if you retreat out of their vision. shooting doors is optimal but also like, gently caress that. you don't NEED to do it you can use modpacks whenever because you can custom build them at any tech station and lastly: if you see an enemy and the game says you can one-shot them, just shoot em. Don't bother heading for cover.
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Sep 10, 2021 00:12
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Well the upshot is that after all the advice I've been able to manage deep-into Io runs on Marine on Hard. The downshot is I don't have a victory log to show you guys  Thanks anyway! I appreciate it, and this game is surprisingly sophisticated.
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Sep 10, 2021 05:55
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Uh, this was my first attempt at New York Reloadcode:
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Sep 10, 2021 16:19
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code:That's my first UV win.
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Sep 10, 2021 21:38
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Nice! Docking Bay always gives me really disappointing loot 
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Sep 10, 2021 21:55
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Being a huge Doom fan and after watching Mr. Icarus stream this I'd say it's right up my alley, except for the fact that I suck so much at Roguelikes that I've pretty much given up on every one I've brought. On the scale of "I almost had it that time, I want to try again" to "Banging my head against the wall" what's the difficulty on this?
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Sep 10, 2021 22:08
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If you put it on easy and try a bit I'd reckon you'll win you'll see the end boss after a couple of tries. Beating ultra-violence might take you hundreds of tries, but absolutely no content is locked behind skill, except challenge modes.
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Sep 10, 2021 22:11
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JH has a predictable randomness, if that makes sense. There are no gnomes spawning with wands of death. Everyone follows the rules. You use the rules to your advantage and you'll win.
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Sep 10, 2021 23:22
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Seconding the above. There's some stuff the game doesn't tutorialize very well (multikits can be used to repair armor! stimkits heal, give mana, prevent debuffs, and make you faster!) but I'd say it does a pretty good job of introducing the basics. If you don't mind light spoilers re: build tips, enemy advice, etc. getting a win on M is very approachable.
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Sep 10, 2021 23:35
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i got the furthest ive gotten yet, to the end of europa, but i had been a marine and gone for the army of darkness perk asap because i loved shottyman in doomrl, but by the time i got to the end of europa i had had 0 shotgun shells for forever.
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Sep 11, 2021 18:08
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i got the furthest ive gotten yet, to the end of europa, but i had been a marine and gone for the army of darkness perk asap because i loved shottyman in doomrl, but by the time i got to the end of europa i had had 0 shotgun shells for forever. army of darkness, like all builds not based around 7.62 or melee, has to pay the Ammo Tax and take 2 levels of Army Surplus
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Sep 11, 2021 18:22
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Fully cleared Medium now with all 3 classes, now focusing on Hard. Scout took awhile to click for me but it's hard to mess up Gunrunner. I actually meant to go shotgun at first with Gunrunner but couldn't pass on Hate. Harbinger took a lot longer to kill on this build than with the other two winners I've had so far, but I suspect that was because I used my plasma grenade on an archwarlock pack earlier instead of on Harbinger's Throne. quote:
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Sep 11, 2021 20:16
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for a general reference on ammo availability: 9mm is plentiful on Callisto before suddenly becoming scarce on Europa and then going completely extinct on Io .44 is an endangered species on Callisto, slightly more common on Europa and vanishes almost entirely on Io 7.62 is moderately scarce on Callisto(less so in Valhalla and Mimir), is given out like candy on Europa and then drops back down to being a little uncommon on Io 12 gauge is abundant on Callisto, basically just as abundant on Europa(but your gun now almost certainly fires at least 2 of them with every shot, so they feel uncommon) and then abruptly disappear completely on Io Rockets are extremely rare on Callisto, start showing up regularly on Europa and then a little less often on Io Energy cells are basically non-existent on Callisto and Europa before suddenly replacing all other ammunition on Io, with only 7.62 managing to survive the ensuing mass extinction So, as a general rule: If you're using rifles, rotaries or smgs primarily, you are pretty much exempt from the ammo tax. You'll start using 9mm rifles/smgs on Callisto and then transition to their 7.62 equivalents or chainguns for late Callisto. Europa will give you all the ammo you can ever want, and Io is usually still generous enough to keep you going. If it's stingy with the 7.62, you can switch to the energy equivalents there, but that's usually not necessary. If you're using sniper rifles, then you're in a bit of a weird position. You start out on .44 but your gun is ammo efficient enough that you can usually make it through Callisto, especially considering that you need some kind of secondary anyway. Then you can switch to 7.62 but, unusually, the 7.62 variant actually isn't better than the .44 variant. Same damage, magazine is only 1 bigger, reloading in combat is a lot more of a problem, and the ranges on the 7.62 are arguably worse. So, if you have a good AV .44 rifle, you might want to stick with it, but you'll have to accept running into increasingly severe ammo shortages. If you're using shotguns, you must pay the Ammo Tax and take Army Surplus/Scavenger. You can put it off for quite a while, though. You won't have any trouble on Callisto. You'll start feeling it on Europa, not really because shotgun shells are rarer but mostly because you'll have upgraded to a double barrel, autoshotgun, an elephant gun or, god forbid, a jackhammer. You can usually get away with not paying on Europa, though, but on Io you will absolutely need to. Your ammo supply vanishes entirely. And, unfortunately, the energy-based shotgun just isn't anywhere near as good. It really isn't a viable changeover, especially since it chews through energy cells so quickly that you can't afford to just take one as a backup weapon, since you won't have the space to carry the cells. If you're using pistols, you need to decide on revolvers or semi-autos early. Semi-autos do not need to take ammo perks: 9mm is plentiful to begin with and you can switch to 7.62 pistols later on easily. Revolver users will need to take ammo perks, and they'll need to take them early. If you're using dual revolvers you'll be struggling with ammo constantly. Technicians can maybe get away with putting it off for a while, but Marines and Scouts absolutely can't. If you want to use launchers just play angel of carnage
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Sep 11, 2021 20:29
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cock hero flux posted:for a general reference on ammo availability: Endgame ammo scarcity only applies to natural drops. There are two guaranteed ammo depots on Dante with two charges each
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Sep 11, 2021 22:50
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tentacles posted:Endgame ammo scarcity only applies to natural drops. There are two guaranteed ammo depots on Dante with two charges each Dante is basically just Io but with 2 ammo terminals on the first level. The ammo terminals do not help as much as you'd think, though. By the late game you are absolute hemorrhaging ammo and the only thing you're going to find on Dante are energy cells. You can stock up once on Dante L1 and then that's pretty much it: if you have no ammo perks, you have to roll with that for the rest of the game. And since you're loaded down with medkits by that point there's a good chance that you can't even afford to carry that much ammo. If you end up doing the Inferno you'll also find that, however much ammo you carried in, you're practically dry by the time you get out. And that's after the ammo terminals. EDIT: as an example. I finished an Angel of Doom game on UV yesterday. I was playing an Army of Darkness Marine and using an Auto-calibrated Elephant Gun. This is by far the most ammo-efficient shotgun build that you can do and with Angel of Doom on enemies had no cover to mitigate it. Going into Dante L2 I had around 250 shotgun shells(the rest of my inventory was medkits and 1 stack of plasma grenades). By the time I cleared it, I had around 100 left. The amount of naturally occurring shells on that level was 16. I was able to restock because I had Army Surplus level 2. If I hadn't had it, I probably would have just died on the Inferno or, if I skipped it, Vestibule. cock hero flux fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Sep 12, 2021 |
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Sep 12, 2021 04:00
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cock hero flux posted:If you're using sniper rifles, then you're in a bit of a weird position. You start out on .44 but your gun is ammo efficient enough that you can usually make it through Callisto, especially considering that you need some kind of secondary anyway. Then you can switch to 7.62 but, unusually, the 7.62 variant actually isn't better than the .44 variant. Same damage, magazine is only 1 bigger, reloading in combat is a lot more of a problem, and the ranges on the 7.62 are arguably worse. So, if you have a good AV .44 rifle, you might want to stick with it, but you'll have to accept running into increasingly severe ammo shortages. The advantage the 7.62 sniper holds is that it reloads the entire clip at once, while the .44 reloads one bullet individually. That, and 7.62 ammo is generally much more plentiful and stacks twice as high in your inventory.
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Sep 12, 2021 07:20
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Yeah, unless you get Hope (which I did on my first clear as a gun-kata scout) or maybe the .44 deagle, I'm not sure I see the argument for .44 at all once you find a nanofab on Europa and can pop out 7.62 pistols. The way that 7.62 reduces your inventory pressure is huge. The JS .44 SMG seems like an absolute trap option, too, though I could see builds that wouldn't hate it.
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Sep 12, 2021 07:32
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Magitek posted:The advantage the 7.62 sniper holds is that it reloads the entire clip at once, while the .44 reloads one bullet individually. That's actually not an advantage, it's a pretty substantial disadvantage. The 7.62 has a reload time of 150%. The .44 reloads each bullet individually but does so at only 25%. Which means that per bullet, the .44 reloads exactly as fast. And if you only need one or two more shots, you can get those out with a 25% reload time.
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Sep 12, 2021 07:39
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cock hero flux posted:That's actually not an advantage, it's a pretty substantial disadvantage. The 7.62 has a reload time of 150%. The .44 reloads each bullet individually but does so at only 25%. Which means that per bullet, the .44 reloads exactly as fast. And if you only need one or two more shots, you can get those out with a 25% reload time. Sniper rifles can take speedloader (it's the only gun I think I've really found it useful on because of the pressure to stay far enough back) and that does take a mod slot but also makes the value prop way way closer.
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Sep 12, 2021 07:45
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I find sniper rifles work best combined with a shorter-range weapon that uses the same ammo, especially if you have a perk or item that lets you spot enemies through walls so you know what to have equipped before you walk through a door.
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Sep 12, 2021 08:01
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Shottie optional advice: bring an SMG along (at least before Army of Darkness) Shotguns (slash damage) do half-damage to armor (the yellow bar), as evidenced by the red damage numbers when targeting robots, which are all armor and no health. The ammo consumption isn’t really a concern, just something you can whip out for the occasional bot. Replace your sidearm when and if reasonable. I’m not convinced Army Surplus is necessary, but I’m not convinced of the opposite either. I stretch my shells considerably further as a Marine by bulk modding the rocket launcher and shottie for swap speed.
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Sep 12, 2021 16:58
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LordSloth posted:. It's necessary if you plan to use a shotgun exclusively, which is ideal because any of the exotic 12 gauge shotguns(elephant, jackhammer, super) will absolutely carry you through the rest of the game as long as you can keep them fed. The 3 of them all have their strengths and weaknesses. The Jackhammer has the raw damage output but chews ammo and the 2 round mag is kind of detrimental with how Reloader works, the Super is great for conga lines because you don't have to reload but struggles against individual tough enemies, and the Elephant Gun has a wide cone and applies damage reduction but has a longer reload and doesn't have either the raw damage or the crowd clearing of the other 2. I favour the Elephant Gun but any of the 3 will do, and you've got a good chance of finding one of them in Valhalla or Mimir. Once you have Army of Darkness and one of the 3 exotics you will be basically able to instantly kill anything short of a Warlock or Medusa in a giant cone. Prior to Army of Darkness I keep a rifle or SMG(or an exotic pistol if I happen to find one) for robot duty but afterwards I not only exclusively use shotguns but I typically exclusively use one specific shotgun. In Jupiter Hell and especially with this build, the best defence is a good offence: if you kill something on the same turn that you see it generally it will not be able to hurt you. Using a worse gun to conserve ammo will have you taking damage that you otherwise could have avoided, and will wear down on your health resources over time. Saving ammo isn't free: you're paying for it in health. The one thing that took me from faceplanting UV runs over and over again to winning them fairly often was abandoning the concept of conserving ammo. Take whatever the best gun you have is, and use it. The strength of Army of Darkness, really, is that it turns shotguns into one size fits all problem solvers. They become good at range, good against robots, good against armour, good at close range, good against groups, and they never miss. There is no enemy that you can run into that they won't be appropriate for. Take whatever the best shotgun you can find is and use it on every enemy for the rest of the game. Doing this, however, requires that you put a point in Army surplus. Ammo isn't free: you can choose to pay in perks or in health, and from everything I've seen perks are the better deal. Otherwise you will run out of shells. I put one point in on Europa and a second one in on Io. You might be able to get away without the second one, but it'll be tight. cock hero flux fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Sep 12, 2021 |
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Sep 12, 2021 17:50
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Nice morning to wrap up all the challenges (though I guess I could go for UV on all...)  code:Exaltation is mostly about having enough luck with enemy spawns, loot drops, and being able to maximize environmental hazards like barrels and turret friendly fire. 4 out of 5 starts will just die on Callisto 1 as you run into multiple packs of resilient guards who will take all your health before you can whittle them down. I went bulletstorm to be able to capitalize early on SMG's and maintain that high damage output through endgame. I bet Survivor could do this pretty easily too (and wouldn't have ammo problems either) but I think I did half of the challenges with that master perk so trying something new was nice
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Sep 12, 2021 17:54
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Picked this up like a madman after replaying doomrl for a bit and going "Why settle?". Anyways It's neat but I'll probably put it down for a little bit until I finish all my other stuff.
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Sep 12, 2021 19:38
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tracecomplete posted:The JS .44 SMG seems like an absolute trap option, too, though I could see builds that wouldn't hate it. It takes a bit to get online for those specific builds, but it's an absolute monster once you do. It does unfortunately require an ammo perk in addition to a bulk mod for efficient.
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Sep 12, 2021 19:51
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dual 44 SMGs is probably peak damage output but like, you'd have to actually max out Scavenger to do it
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Sep 12, 2021 19:54
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TastyLemonDrops posted:It takes a bit to get online for those specific builds, but it's an absolute monster once you do. It does unfortunately require an ammo perk in addition to a bulk mod for efficient. Yeah, I can see if you're kinda willing to overspec to it. Kind of feels like the build has to start early, though, and maybe loses viability if you don't get one? Though I suppose if you at least get _a_ special SMG, like the 9mm storm SMG, you could be OK.
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Sep 12, 2021 20:31
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tracecomplete posted:Yeah, I can see if you're kinda willing to overspec to it. Kind of feels like the build has to start early, though, and maybe loses viability if you don't get one? Though I suppose if you at least get _a_ special SMG, like the 9mm storm SMG, you could be OK. Yeah, I usually don't put any points into perks until I see what the potential unique drops are on Callisto. SMGs are considered pistols, so there's quite a large bit of leeway going into a pistol build even if you don't find any SMGs.
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Sep 12, 2021 21:00
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I guess the BFT jumps to your own bots? Or does the summoner do some other weirdness? Don't know really what happened.code:
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Sep 12, 2021 22:42
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Endless seems really stingy. I've run out of ammo a few times, many floors don't have lootboxes, AV3's can't spawn, exalted are the only practical source for good gear and I've never even seen a unique.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:31
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What determines if medical boxes don't drop health orbs? Moon type? Seems like they always drop orbs in Callisto, nearly always on Europa, and occasionally don't on Io/Dante.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:43
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SKULL.GIF posted:What determines if medical boxes don't drop health orbs? Moon type? Seems like they always drop orbs in Callisto, nearly always on Europa, and occasionally don't on Io/Dante. I feel like they always drop an orb and a medpack.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:49
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In my head I think it's sometime during Europa where they stop, I think the first two levels you still get one?
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Sep 13, 2021 16:49
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IME playing on Hard/UV/N! there's a hard cutoff at some point in Europa. I've never seen medical box orbs in Io or Dante. Endless mode works the same way, you just stop getting them after so many floors.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:52
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I wonder if it's actually tied to experience level, not necessarily moon type or # of floors. I'll start paying closer attention to this.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:54
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That could be it, maybe when you hit level 8? Yesterday I got fates twice into Entrenchment and boy is it a difficult play style. Tanks Medusa bombs like a pro but you're constantly being worn down trying to set up in cover. I would love to have the relic that alerts the level when you enter just to have the enemies coming to me. dyzzy fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 16:55
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