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oliveoil posted:no I just ran out of money thats why i need a job Last time you tried to skip steps to make huge amounts of money you gambled away your life savings day trading. If you had stayed where you were last time and just put in the work you could reasonably have been an L5 by now making $400k+ and working towards L6 and still have your life savings. At some point you have to just do the work if you want to get paid
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Sep 13, 2021 20:18
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The self-justifying strategizing, implied inevitability and sense of inflated self-importance in those posts made me think of gamblers talking about their plan to make it big. Now I understand that's actually a pretty accurate read? Trying to get paid is well and good, but it sounds like you're doing more harm to yourself than good. I don't think it's wrong to apply to a job that's probably out of your reach, but I would definitely get back to the 250k position first if I could.
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Sep 13, 2021 20:29
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Jose Valasquez posted:At some point you have to just do the work if you want to get paid it's not as sexy as get-rich-quick but sitting on a FAANG-level job for like 5-7 years and picking up some raises/promos/stock appreciation along the way is still a pretty quick way to get rich make that 250k+/yr and bank as much as you can and you'll be semi-FIRE in several years and then you can gently caress off and do whatever you want, or keep grinding and get even richer
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Sep 13, 2021 20:54
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Destroyenator posted:If they’re VC funded at some point the investors will want to cash out which is why there’s probably an end goal of getting acquired or IPO, and the will be when the options become real. The CFO hopefully knows how realistic that is in the next X years but they won’t be able to commit to anything. I forgot to ask some of these questions in the meeting, but I did learn that the company is mostly owned by private equity firms. The CFO said the firms like to take their winnings after five years and transfer ownership to a different firm, at which point employees can exercise their options or have the shares transferred into ownership of the new firm (but at the new price, I think). It seems like a reasonable assumption that at some point within five years the company would change hands and cause the shares to be exercisable. The CFO indicated there was not much chance they'd IPO anytime soon. The shares also vest 20% every year. So not exactly a guarantee, but might be a nice-to-have.
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Sep 13, 2021 21:20
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Guinness posted:it's not as sexy as get-rich-quick but sitting on a FAANG-level job for like 5-7 years and picking up some raises/promos/stock appreciation along the way is still a pretty quick way to get rich he fuckin did it. succeeded. retired. then he pissed it all away
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Sep 13, 2021 22:03
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wait a minute, oliveoil if the best argument you have for being l6 is an S at l3, does that mean you never completed a cycle at l4? or you did and just got CME or worse? lmao you're even more full of it than i thought
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Sep 13, 2021 22:24
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6-7 yeo is def senior-ish territory depending on the size/make-up of the company so staff may not be out of the question. I've seen staff positions require as low as 5-6 yeo, but they do want domain knowledge with that. Is there a particular area you've consistently worked in for a few of those years? You can usually ask to interview a level up for whatever role you apply for, but if you were a L3 a year ago, they may not jump at the chance to bring you on as a L6. L4/L5 might be more realistic (mid/senior) for most places. Probably best not to cite your glowing L3 review as a primary reason to consider you for a staff position though. elite_garbage_man fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 22:48
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oliveoil posted:Because I know it's been done in six months by someone who started out getting paid about half of L4 comp albeit with over ten years experience. Years of industry experience are a poor proxy for overall experience. That example reads like an L4->5 promo argument imo. Collecting requirements and some delegating is a solid L5 TL if it's hard enough of a problem, but L6 is where you're expected to be setting the direction and solving problems where solutions are not beyond what you'd expect a senior SWE to know how to solve. Working with security is great but you have to work with us and unless there were massive unknowns in how to do it securely that's more standard L5 TL than 6. For example I expect L6s on my team to be determining what multi year efforts their teams should be tackling and making them happen across broad areas or being the kinds of subject matter experts that are solving problems no one else I know can. Leading a well defined project (even if the details change along the way) isn't enough on its own.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:22
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dont listen to the haters oliveoil, bet big on $NET
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Sep 14, 2021 00:47
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bob dobbs is dead posted:he fuckin did it. succeeded. retired. then he pissed it all away wait was he the one who made it big off doge
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Sep 14, 2021 02:39
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for some relevant-ish content, i recently went through the process of successfully interviewing for a staff position while only being a senior. getting the chance to interview came down to having a lot of relevant domain experience and already being on the track to get promoted in 3-6 months (which means i was doing that work for about the past year and change anyways). while i think its possible for someone two levels, i think its going to be a lot harder within faang because of the rigidity of leveling. there are literally thousands of google l5s past and present and there is little ambiguity about what that means, even moreso for l4s. also realizing every company is different, but one thing that changes with system design questions at senior+ levels is the need to understand the operational and social impacts of your designs. it's great that you recognize you want to use a nosql database and push work out to a fleet, but how are you going to leverage these things to reduce the blast radius of failure? how much expertise do you need to work on this system, and how do you scale feature delivery as the team grows and regresses to a much less senior average tenure?
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Sep 14, 2021 02:55
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As a side note, I loving hate the "you have to perform at a level before being promoted there" school of thought, because it reads like trying to get free labor.
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Sep 14, 2021 07:33
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Xarn posted:As a side note, I loving hate the "you have to perform at a level before being promoted there" school of thought, because it reads like trying to get free labor. Loses some of its edge at the absurd compensation levels involved here, but yeah in general the "give it a go, and your old job is still here if it goes poorly" approach seems like the better way.
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Sep 14, 2021 08:05
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I’m starting as an L4 at big G when my now-previous job was more like a burgeoning L5. They were waffling between bringing me on at L4 or giving me the L5 interview, but we mutually agreed to stick with L4 for now. Better(?) to learn how to L5 at Google than elsewhere, and titles are rather bullshit, so whatever. So yeah, I’ll be similarly gunning for L5. But I am under no impression that I’m already there! …anybody got L5 tips? 
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Sep 14, 2021 15:36
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Pollyanna posted:I’m starting as an L4 at big G when my now-previous job was more like a burgeoning L5. They were waffling between bringing me on at L4 or giving me the L5 interview, but we mutually agreed to stick with L4 for now. Better(?) to learn how to L5 at Google than elsewhere, and titles are rather bullshit, so whatever. The tricky part about getting to L5 imo is measuring impact. When you're designing something always try to think about how you will show that it was successful, because even if it is successful but you don't have tangible proof that it was successful it's not going to help much when going for promo.
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Sep 14, 2021 15:43
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Xarn posted:As a side note, I loving hate the "you have to perform at a level before being promoted there" school of thought, because it reads like trying to get free labor. I don't understand why companies that do this don't just grant promotion bonuses as backpay. (I mean, I do know, it's because they don't have to and nobody thinks like that, but I can dream.)
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Sep 14, 2021 15:58
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raminasi posted:I don't understand why companies that do this don't just grant promotion bonuses as backpay. (I mean, I do know, it's because they don't have to and nobody thinks like that, but I can dream.) employment is not predicated necessarily on good faith
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Sep 14, 2021 16:06
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Pollyanna posted:…anybody got L5 tips? what jose said about measuring impact. if you tell somebody to do something in a meeting, make sure that's written down as meeting notes or whatever and that your name is next to it. doing l5 work isn't all that big of a deal, but doing all the bookkeeping to show that you're doing l5 work is a bit obnoxious. also, sometimes there ain't poo poo you can do. if you're leading a team of devs on an obviously l5 project and then some p0 poo poo comes in that takes those devs off the project for three months, then you're not getting promoted that cycle. it's not your fault, and nobody will say it's your fault, but you still won't get promoted. You might be able to tell that I'm describing my own situation  But, like, it doesn't matter too much. I used to really, really care about promotion because of the title change (back to my old title) - the title change would give me more leverage on the job market and internally to transfer to my preferred location. but then a pandemic happened, and now I've been approved for full-time remote work. I'm being paid an L5 salary because I'm doing L5 work and everybody is happy to say "Achmed does L5 work leading blah blah blah, but the impact isn't there yet because of reallocations and stuff, pay him pls". the only thing that promotion would get me now is bumping up the salary cap, but I haven't capped out yet so it doesn't matter for the near term.
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Sep 14, 2021 16:20
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Pollyanna posted:I’m starting as an L4 at big G when my now-previous job was more like a burgeoning L5. They were waffling between bringing me on at L4 or giving me the L5 interview, but we mutually agreed to stick with L4 for now. Better(?) to learn how to L5 at Google than elsewhere, and titles are rather bullshit, so whatever. Judging from outside, write and launch a messaging app
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Sep 14, 2021 17:26
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Does anyone have any decent questions for asking a potential team manager candidate? I've only ever interviewed other developers.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:49
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Achmed Jones posted:what jose said about measuring impact. if you tell somebody to do something in a meeting, make sure that's written down as meeting notes or whatever and that your name is next to it. doing l5 work isn't all that big of a deal, but doing all the bookkeeping to show that you're doing l5 work is a bit obnoxious. also, sometimes there ain't poo poo you can do. if you're leading a team of devs on an obviously l5 project and then some p0 poo poo comes in that takes those devs off the project for three months, then you're not getting promoted that cycle. it's not your fault, and nobody will say it's your fault, but you still won't get promoted. This kind of describes me, I really really cared about promo to L5, and I had finally built the skills to do L5 work, and then the pandemic ate a promo cycle, and then I got asked to drop my "here is your L5 promo" project to work on some other time-sensitive project that turned into multiple quarters but wasn't deemed impactful enough. I was so burned out after that that I left, but now I can't remember why I cared about promo so much to begin with. I was at L4 for a really long time though, so I was salary capped. My L5 advice is, decide if you actually want it, because it's not all upside - the nature of your day to day work will change. Make sure your manager is actively working with you to get you there; choosing projects with the right scope is hugely important, as well as going about them in the right way. You don't have to lead a small project team to get there, but my impression was that that's by far the most common path to success. And if your team doesn't have the right projects available for you to get promoted, change teams proactively, don't wait around for things to change. edit: Pollyanna I PMed you Edly fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 17:55
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Oldies: recent grad, my startup employer of 6 mo (built on parent company who has been around 15 years) is being shuttered in a month. How do I best process this?
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Sep 14, 2021 17:55
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shrug, get new job? its startupland. make actual human friends, the company wont be there for you
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Sep 14, 2021 18:01
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marumaru posted:Does anyone have any decent questions for asking a potential team manager candidate? Ask about how they give feedback to individuals, ask them to give an example. A lot of managers will gush about the great work their team is doing, but not be able to talk about the contributions of specific team members.
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Sep 14, 2021 18:02
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Argyle Gargoyle posted:Oldies: recent grad, my startup employer of 6 mo (built on parent company who has been around 15 years) is being shuttered in a month. How do I best process this? It happens. My first real job out of school was a dot com bust. The good thing is that you still have school and interview prep relatively fresh. Nobody will ding you personally for your previous employer tanking.
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Sep 14, 2021 18:47
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The reason I'm eyeing L5 is because I absolutely hate stagnating in my career. It makes me feel like I'm not improving or growing as a person. Probably means that I need to find other things to live for  But this a lot of good advice for Ln advancement, tyty all!
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Sep 14, 2021 19:06
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Pollyanna posted:The reason I'm eyeing L5 is because I absolutely hate stagnating in my career. It makes me feel like I'm not improving or growing as a person. Probably means that I need to find other things to live for  My sense of self worth is very much connected to my career. This thread makes me feel like poopoo sometimes because yall are talking about a 250k offer like it's an affront, L8, L9, L30, FAANGs and poo poo and I'm here still at baby level far from six digits but I objectively am at a comfy spot and probably shouldn't worry about it.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:09
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marumaru posted:
gently caress em. You can have two kids, two cars, and two homes on less than 6 figures.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:14
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I live in Canada and we definitely don't have mad figgies up here either, I realize that I've probably capped out my salary unless I break into management (which I'm working on for job satisfaction reasons rather than money reasons). I'm still in that weird zone where I'm making more than the median household income but not remotely enough to afford a house.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:20
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marumaru posted:
I've come a long way, but I still connect salary to my worth as a person. I'm trying to change that. Part of that work is understanding that this attitude wasn't something I invented myself, it was given to me explicitly or implicitly by my parents, educators, advertisement, etc. Salary = worth is very much part of American culture and it's reinforced constantly.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:25
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marumaru posted:
Don't give up. I came out of a state school and it took me a winding 15 year path before I landed a L4 job at Big G. I look at kids getting hired out of ivies at L4 knowing that I was every bit as good as that coming out of undergrad and it sucks. Systemic change aside you will be best served by playing the hand you've been dealt while holding on to that feeling that you are worth more. Keep pushing. Every time you are at a place that does not value you and invest in you, learn what you can from the experience and then move on in 1-2 years without burning any bridges.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:30
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For me the money stopped mattering a long time ago, but at Google I worked with so many people who were smarter than me and just got to L5 and L6 naturally like it was nothing. Meanwhile for me, L5 was a huge stretch goal that required a bunch of personal growth before I could even realistically think about taking a shot at it. I felt like I needed to chase promo because a bunch of my friends had already gotten it and people wouldn't respect me if I didn't too. Obviously now I realize that was distorted thinking, (almost) nobody gives a poo poo about level. It was really hard to see that at the time though.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:33
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marumaru posted:
It may help to think of it as knowing there are a lot of good opportunities out there should you ever feel underappreciated or bored at your current place. Even a ton of non-faang places offer decent salaries and have plenty of work to do without the crazy rear end interview processes but you'll have to shop around. Those faang devs also gently caress up just like the rest of us, so seeing their goofs at work also helps to not put them on a pedestal from a technical standpoint. If you're happy and stable at your current place, then there's no need to feel inferior. You've made it imo.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:37
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Pollyanna posted:The reason I'm eyeing L5 is because I absolutely hate stagnating in my career. It makes me feel like I'm not improving or growing as a person. Probably means that I need to find other things to live for Keep in mind L4 is a terminal position and there’s no shame in staying there if you like the work.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:39
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figgies like this only matter if you're paying real estate prices that assume the figgies if you live in a place where a home costs $200k, you don't need to make insane money. but if you want to have a home in california and can't ask mom and dad for a quarter million dollars, well, then it becomes more important i know _so_ many people who "just dont understand people who care about money," because their parents made the down payment on a house in santa barbara for them. anyway, dont base your self worth on your figgies or your title. both are losing ventures. figure out what you want and go for that. if all you want is a title or to stack paper then fine, but that sounds pretty hollow to me
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Sep 14, 2021 19:46
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i wanna stack figs so i can finish up work by 40 and start doin communism full time like engels
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Sep 14, 2021 19:49
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I want a good work-life balance that will allow me to continue making enough money to stay above water and live a comfortable life until I reach retirement age. Tech in general is good for this, but my trepidation about its longevity lead me to try and hoard as much up front as possible, hence gunning for higher positions. That, plus the "haha you're still XYZ at 31" thing, but that's brainworms. Honestly, there's so much else to be done in life that I need to focus on stuff other than my career for once.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:49
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i wanna stack figs so i can finish up work by 40 and start doin communism full time like engels I haven't even thought about buying my own factory with my computer toucher money!
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Sep 14, 2021 19:58
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Ensign Expendable posted:I live in Canada and we definitely don't have mad figgies up here either, I realize that I've probably capped out my salary unless I break into management (which I'm working on for job satisfaction reasons rather than money reasons). I'm still in that weird zone where I'm making more than the median household income but not remotely enough to afford a house. Look remote! Not uncommon to see "USA or Canada" for even small USA-based companies, and getting paid in USD is an instant raise (at the moment). Could also help with the housing thing if you're less tied down to your current location.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:59
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I went to a magnet high school and was thus conditioned at a young age, pushed by my parents at every step of the way to care for nothing except having "a job". It owned when I told them about what happened at my last company and how I had no hesitations quitting outright at all and they absolutely freaked out about being unemployed. I had actually been planning to quit a year ago, before Covid happened and they (and my friends) all thought I was insane to wanna leave a failing company to take a few weeks off and grind LeetCode. Jokes on you fuckers, ~$270k at my next job which is p much double my last salary. Back to the main topic though, I feel like I've got a huge weight off my shoulders now that I've secured a figgies job and would love to stay at my company as long as possible so I can bank a ton and just not care as much about comp as I do "life", whatever it may be at that point.
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Sep 14, 2021 21:40
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