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DariusLikewise posted:pr voting doesnt really solve any of the actual issues in this country and just makes voting feel better hth any system that isn't an authoritarian hellscape is going to require some form of voting / democracy. It might not be sufficient to get to whatever system you want to get to, but once you get there you still need some form of system, so there's not much harm in optimizing the one you have so long as you're aware it's not going to fundamentally change the system, just give you a mechanism to excise the worst part of whatever the current status quo is and make tweaks around the margin. also if we get pharma and dental care while you're working on the glorious revolution, that would be great since not paying like 20 grand a year for pills would be awesome. If voting was some huge imposition i'd agree but we just took our kids to the park in front of the advance voting place and took 5 minutes each to go in and vote.
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Sep 14, 2021 15:06
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:yeah, is this system used elsewhere or was it devised by you vyelkin? it tackles the usual talking point of "but what about my REPRESENTITIVE?" quite well (not that local representation even has any place at all in modern canadian parliaments, but politicians like to pretend it does). the only thing i would fear in trying to pitch this would be the complexity involved in explaining it would be an easy target for detractors, maybe moreso than typical pr schemes tbh it's been long enough now that I don't remember if I based it on an existing system or if it was something that occurred to me once when having an MMP debate and someone not liking the idea of party lists and the double vote for candidate and party
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Sep 14, 2021 15:21
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:This would be a terrible idea. Throw anonymity into Canadians choice of whether to maintain social policies and you'll get authoritarian austerity with more cops and watch as more and more services are privatized. that doesn't make any sense everyone already votes anonymously direct democracy rules. we should also have a lottery to decide who gets to be public servants. also do ostracism votes. bring back all the ancient athens classics (except slavery)
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Sep 14, 2021 15:27
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enki42 posted:any system that isn't an authoritarian hellscape is going to require some form of voting / democracy. It might not be sufficient to get to whatever system you want to get to, but once you get there you still need some form of system, so there's not much harm in optimizing the one you have so long as you're aware it's not going to fundamentally change the system, just give you a mechanism to excise the worst part of whatever the current status quo is and make tweaks around the margin. lol, im more referring to the fact that people on this forum tend to think of pr as some sort of silver bullet that once passed will deliver us constant glorious progressive governments when its more just a way to make the division of power marginally more fair
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Sep 14, 2021 15:50
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yeah fair, i think it has a decent chance of getting marginally socdem policies passed though. If your bar is full on socialism it won't do that but it can at least extract some money from rich people and make it help you a little in the meantime.
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Sep 14, 2021 15:52
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Rutibex posted:that doesn't make any sense everyone already votes anonymously direct democracy has its upsides but in the current political climate it can also be a way for reactionaries to get their way, like banning mosque construction (Switzerland) to banning tax increases (California) to eroding workers' rights (also California) to stopping electoral reform (Canada)
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Sep 14, 2021 16:00
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direct democracy only works well when the electorate is both highly motivated to be involved in political decision making and also well informed of the decisions and their outcomes, so it's basically permanently dead in the water for anything other than municipal government (and maybe not even then) e: reminder that during that "golden age" of direct democracy in athens (pericles' time basically), wealth inequality was low and the population of the city was something like only 300k, and they all lived within a few km of each other. that's pretty hard to replicate today hot cocoa on the couch has issued a correction as of 16:11 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 16:08
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Pro click https://fb.watch/80tbxsrOZ2/ Stockwell has issued a correction as of 16:13 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 16:10
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pfft whatever. the only reason we still have a representative system after the invention of the telegraph is because individual people are way easier to bribe and corrupt for capital i mean lets use california as an example. the governor runs on a platform of universal state medical insurance. but look at that hes having dinner with insurance lobbyists and now there is no plans for universal medical care. the system works! 
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Sep 14, 2021 16:12
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I would rather see us fail quickly and spectacularly under direct democracy than slowly have our necks crushed by liberal representative democracy.
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Sep 14, 2021 16:18
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TVsVeryOwn posted:I would rather see us fail quickly and spectacularly under direct democracy than slowly have our necks crushed by liberal representative democracy. good old accelerationism, you love to see it
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Sep 14, 2021 16:32
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The older I get the more I realize the machines in the matrix are the heroes. Oh look, a sequel, how fitting.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:09
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Yeah, direct democracy without sufficient political education is a recipe for disaster.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:14
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Fashionable Jorts posted:The older I get the more I realize the machines in the matrix are the heroes. its pretty explicit that the machines are the good guys in the animatrix
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Sep 14, 2021 17:14
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vyelkin posted:i have been consistent about this for many years now that i think the best system for canada is nationwide mmp where there are no party lists and instead the top-up seats are taken from the losing candidates who came the closest to winning their ridings (balanced by province), that way everybody has to run a local election campaign, every mp is tied to a specific district where they act as a representative, local voters always have the choice to reject somebody even if they're a party bigwig who would be top of a list, and voters' preferences are reflected even in tight races where two candidates are neck and neck  vyelkin posted:direct democracy has its upsides but in the current political climate it can also be a way for reactionaries to get their way, like banning mosque construction (Switzerland) to banning tax increases (California) to eroding workers' rights (also California) to stopping electoral reform (Canada) my father in law is a swiss citizen because his grandfather was and his family kept up applying for citizenship, and apparently he used to get tapes mailed to him from switzerland every time it was to vote to give him info about the issues. from what ive heard they're actually thinking of banning expats from being able to vote because they're all generally pretty liberal leaning and oppose a lot of the more conservative issues that come up Dreylad has issued a correction as of 17:17 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 17:15
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lol at this thread thinking it's remotely connected to reality in any way shape or form, just lol
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Sep 14, 2021 17:18
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CLAM DOWN posted:lol at this thread thinking it's remotely connected to reality in any way shape or form, just lol lol e: lmao hot cocoa on the couch has issued a correction as of 17:22 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 17:20
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:This would be a terrible idea. Throw anonymity into Canadians choice of whether to maintain social policies and you'll get authoritarian austerity with more cops and watch as more and more services are privatized. so the status quo then I actually agree, I don't think it would change a whole lot. you'd think it'd mean policies that poll well but are opposed by the parties would actually get enacted (e.g. I'm guessing national pharmacare polls at higher than 50% in favour) but you need people to actually bother to vote, and voting in the face of a "your tax dollars" campaign is different from telling a pollster "sure, sounds good to me"
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Sep 14, 2021 17:23
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pokeyman posted:so the status quo then it wouldn't be "your tax dollars" the bill before the peoples assembly would be "Would you like a national pharmacare system and a tax on only the wealth of the top 1% of Canadians to pay for it?" in a direct democratic system it would be really easy to craft proposals that disenfranchise the ultra wealthy
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Sep 14, 2021 17:31
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Rutibex posted:it wouldn't be "your tax dollars" the bill before the peoples assembly would be "Would you like a national pharmacare system and a tax on only the wealth of the top 1% of Canadians to pay for it?" It would be even easier to say "Would you like a national pharmacare system? No new taxes!" Obviously that's a bad idea long term, but I think there's ample evidence Canadians are really good at ignoring the long term so long as there's no short term impact (see: COVID, climate change) Also good luck on ever getting a majority of Canadians to agree that their home prices going up forever is unsustainable.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:40
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pokeyman posted:so the status quo then I like representative democracy but I think the parties should should abolished. Change isn't always inherently good. Direct democracy is an interesting thought experiment or ideal but it falls apart easily. Nobody is spending all day voting on the various civic, provincial and federal laws. Who decides what even gets written as law. Do we write laws and submit them for the entire country to vote on? Does everyone create legislation to vote on? How many people need to vote for quorum? You'll come back to representative democracy in no time.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:45
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The idea that people need to be educated to properly participate in direct democracy is paternalistic nonsense. For one thing making government more responsive would motivate people to think and learn about issues that they could actually impact or change. And for another thing there are illiterate peasant farmers around the world doing more to fight climate change, capitalism etc. than any lanyard wearing PhD in public policy.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:45
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DariusLikewise posted:pr voting doesnt really solve any of the actual issues in this country and just makes voting feel better hth this is correct
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Sep 14, 2021 18:00
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vyelkin posted:direct democracy has its upsides but in the current political climate it can also be a way for reactionaries to get their way, like banning mosque construction (Switzerland) to banning tax increases (California) to eroding workers' rights (also California) to stopping electoral reform (Canada) or in winnipegs case, not opening up an intersection to pedestrians lmao Killin_Like_Bronson posted:I like representative democracy but I think the parties should should abolished. Change isn't always inherently good. Direct democracy is an interesting thought experiment or ideal but it falls apart easily. Nobody is spending all day voting on the various civic, provincial and federal laws. Who decides what even gets written as law. Do we write laws and submit them for the entire country to vote on? Does everyone create legislation to vote on? How many people need to vote for quorum? You'll come back to representative democracy in no time. abolish the parties and institute a one-party system(the communist party)
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Sep 14, 2021 18:00
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DariusLikewise posted:or in winnipegs case, not opening up an intersection to pedestrians lmao Yes!
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Sep 14, 2021 18:06
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I love how the vote map shows a distinct pattern where the further your neighborhood was from Portage and Main the more people voted to keep it closed. What a garbage loving city y council we have for putting that to a vote. Referendums and plebiscites are what governments hold when they want to get out of doing something.
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Sep 14, 2021 18:06
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Duck Rodgers posted:The idea that people need to be educated to properly participate in direct democracy is paternalistic nonsense. For one thing making government more responsive would motivate people to think and learn about issues that they could actually impact or change. And for another thing there are illiterate peasant farmers around the world doing more to fight climate change, capitalism etc. than any lanyard wearing PhD in public policy. Not educated in the formal sense. A Zapatista knows how to run meetings, what's going on in their community, how to compromise, how to prioritise what's important. Act like an effective politician basically. That's something nobody really knows how to do in Canada, even (read especially) the PhD lanyards. Building those kind of capabilities will take a long rear end time, as well as institutions needed to support that but just throwing decision making to some alienated suburbanite has demonstrably bad consequences.
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Sep 14, 2021 18:24
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DariusLikewise posted:pr voting doesnt really solve any of the actual issues in this country and just makes voting feel better hth it reduces the number of seats for the libs and the tories and makes majorities nearly impossible. that's a pretty good start.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:04
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Who cares if it's better or not, it'd be neat to try something differenthot cocoa on the couch posted:gj perpetuating the myth of democracy, and being willing pawns of the apparatus of power that the elite wields Votes go brrrap brrapp
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Sep 14, 2021 19:13
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Blood Boils posted:Who cares if it's better or not, it'd be neat to try something different Most of the people arguing against it are wringing their hands about what-ifs and maybes the same way I'm sure people did when the concept of voting was introduced.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:48
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DariusLikewise posted:or in winnipegs case, not opening up an intersection to pedestrians lmao Tbf I don't know what the hangup is about wanting to cross at that exact intersection. There are crosswalks in any other direction to cross either street! 
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Sep 14, 2021 20:01
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A button crossing at what in any other city would be a stack interchange, smdh A more reasonable thing to question would be the giant disused railyard that divides the city between poor and poorer
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Sep 14, 2021 20:03
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Most of the people arguing against it are wringing their hands about what-ifs and maybes the same way I'm sure people did when the concept of voting was introduced. you can just read the writings of any Canadian politician for the last 200 years to hear hand wringing about voting for representatives. it was only in 1948 that asian people were allowed to vote, let alone women or people that don't own property quote:1867 British North America Act When Canada is formed, only men who are 21 years of age or older, and who own property are able to vote in federal elections. People who are excluded from voting provincially cannot vote federally.
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Sep 14, 2021 20:24
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ToxicAcne posted:Not educated in the formal sense. A Zapatista knows how to run meetings, what's going on in their community, how to compromise, how to prioritise what's important. Act like an effective politician basically. That's something nobody really knows how to do in Canada, even (read especially) the PhD lanyards. Yeah that's because we live in a society that conditions us to be consumers and not political agents. People are taught that if you don't like something you buy it elsewhere/move away etc instead of working to fix it. Really need to overthrow capitalism anyway and no change in voting system will do that on its own
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Sep 14, 2021 20:26
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Sure let's just rewrite the constitution act to create a society of direct democracy. The issues with it are all hypothetical let's just make everyone completely engage in every aspect of Canada's operations. The provinces will cede power easily and develop their own direct representation legislation and each pass it easily. Municipalities with dissolve all local governments and will replace it with an app! There will be no problems, as any potential problems are just what ifs by people who don't want better things. Cromulent_Chill has issued a correction as of 21:18 on Sep 14, 2021 |
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Sep 14, 2021 21:07
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Duck Rodgers posted:Yeah that's because we live in a society bullshit
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Sep 14, 2021 21:22
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Rutibex posted:it wouldn't be "your tax dollars" the bill before the peoples assembly would be "Would you like a national pharmacare system and a tax on only the wealth of the top 1% of Canadians to pay for it?" How many competing bills for national pharmacare do we vote on? Is there a call for bill submissions? Do we vote on which one to vote on? People love voting so I'd hope that each potential piece of legislation has several rounds of voting to eliminate the bills that are lacking. We could vote on ammendments too, for the sake of change, and for the love of the vote. I'd like to vote on who can make ammendments to all the bills as well as vote on voting for ammendments that make the cut from that vote. As long as I spend my day voting I know Canada would be different from the current situation and therefore better. Spend my nights reading potential legislation and my days voting on them because I love Canada and the Canadians with the foresight to change things to something else.
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Sep 14, 2021 21:44
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Sure let's just rewrite the constitution act to create a society of direct democracy. The issues with it are all hypothetical let's just make everyone completely engage in every aspect of Canada's operations. The provinces will cede power easily and develop their own direct representation legislation and each pass it easily. Municipalities with dissolve all local governments and will replace it with an app! I know you're being sarcastic, but yeah actually. A much better policy than "the plebs are too stupid to govern themselves"
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Sep 14, 2021 21:44
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I know you're being sarcastic, but yeah actually. A much better policy than "the plebs are too stupid to govern themselves" The logistics are the barrier, and it's huge.
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Sep 14, 2021 21:53
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https://mobile.twitter.com/theJagmeetSingh/status/1437882767518339078 fuckin
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Sep 14, 2021 22:03
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