politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

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i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

and in modern protestant evangelical christianity, the person is baptised when the parents feel the child has discerned right from wrong in their eyes. usually 7-9 years old in the modern church. i was five and was disappointed

# ? Sep 15, 2021 09:10

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 10:41

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

A little off-topic, but I'm not familiar with theology and this is as good a place to ask as any.

Something I've never understood about the logic behind Protestantism and the Protestant work ethic is the idea that earthly prosperity can in any way reflect God's will. A foundational principle in Protestantism is the idea that God's will is inscrutable to humans, and in Calvinism, at least, that every soul's fate has already been determined by God, right? If so, how do you go from there to... believing that you can understand God's will by examining how successful someone is by working?

Isn't that directly contradictory to the idea that God's will is fundamentally inscrutable?

# ? Sep 15, 2021 09:37

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

MeinPanzer posted:

A little off-topic, but I'm not familiar with theology and this is as good a place to ask as any.

Something I've never understood about the logic behind Protestantism and the Protestant work ethic is the idea that earthly prosperity can in any way reflect God's will. A foundational principle in Protestantism is the idea that God's will is inscrutable to humans, and in Calvinism, at least, that every soul's fate has already been determined by God, right? If so, how do you go from there to... believing that you can understand God's will by examining how successful someone is by working?

Isn't that directly contradictory to the idea that God's will is fundamentally inscrutable?

please stop directing effort to answer this because you will be disappointed

# ? Sep 15, 2021 09:48

Freudian: Mar 23, 2011

MeinPanzer posted:

A little off-topic, but I'm not familiar with theology and this is as good a place to ask as any.

Something I've never understood about the logic behind Protestantism and the Protestant work ethic is the idea that earthly prosperity can in any way reflect God's will. A foundational principle in Protestantism is the idea that God's will is inscrutable to humans, and in Calvinism, at least, that every soul's fate has already been determined by God, right? If so, how do you go from there to... believing that you can understand God's will by examining how successful someone is by working?

Isn't that directly contradictory to the idea that God's will is fundamentally inscrutable?

Probably better suited for the Ask/Tell Religionthread.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 09:49

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Ras Het posted:

Calvin literally had Servetus burned alive for opposing infant baptism (although I guess he could've got away with it if he hadn't also opposed the trinity)

That's actually one of the examples I was thinking of, although as you say it was mostly his denial of the Trinity that did him in.

I'm not entirely sure just how burn-worthy it would have been to believe in adult baptism on its own, so my statement about Calvin may have been exaggerated, but it was definitely on the no-no list for Catholics and most Protestants alike.

MeinPanzer posted:

A little off-topic, but I'm not familiar with theology and this is as good a place to ask as any.

Something I've never understood about the logic behind Protestantism and the Protestant work ethic is the idea that earthly prosperity can in any way reflect God's will. A foundational principle in Protestantism is the idea that God's will is inscrutable to humans, and in Calvinism, at least, that every soul's fate has already been determined by God, right? If so, how do you go from there to... believing that you can understand God's will by examining how successful someone is by working?

Isn't that directly contradictory to the idea that God's will is fundamentally inscrutable?

I am no theologian so I can't address your question directly, but predestination has always been a tough pill to swallow, even within the Calvinist tradition itself. You soon had a dissenting branch called Arminianism, which emphasized free will and went on to influence such denominations as Methodism.

Although Calvin was hugely influential, there actually seem to be few purely (or mostly) theologically Calvinist churches outside of the Netherlands and Scotland.

Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Sep 15, 2021

# ? Sep 15, 2021 10:18

Tweezer Reprise: Aug 6, 2013; It hasn't got six strings, but it's a lot of fun.

They called the sanctioned murder by drowning of Anabaptists their 'third baptism', if I recall correctly.

i say swears online posted:

please stop directing effort to answer this because you will be disappointed

I really do think, that in English/Dutch/American Protestantism particularly, there has been a rather pronounced dialectical relationship between capitalism and the religion. The constructed morality of one informs the constructed morality of the other. Not to say that capitalism hasn't fully culturally taken root in other areas, obviously, but prosperity gospel might be the ultimate synthesis, though obviously the seed of the idea that's able to interlock with capitalism or any other hierarchical economic system is present everywhere else on the spectrum of Christianity, depending on what one wants to do to cherrypick scripture or tradition.

Tweezer Reprise fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Sep 15, 2021

# ? Sep 15, 2021 11:01

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

MeinPanzer posted:

A little off-topic, but I'm not familiar with theology and this is as good a place to ask as any.

Something I've never understood about the logic behind Protestantism and the Protestant work ethic is the idea that earthly prosperity can in any way reflect God's will. A foundational principle in Protestantism is the idea that God's will is inscrutable to humans, and in Calvinism, at least, that every soul's fate has already been determined by God, right? If so, how do you go from there to... believing that you can understand God's will by examining how successful someone is by working?

Isn't that directly contradictory to the idea that God's will is fundamentally inscrutable?

There is no actual unified Protestantism or Protestant Church. It is way, way more divided then any other form of Christianity. At it's core is "gently caress the pope" and it can go to pretty much anywhere from there.

i say swears online posted:

and in modern protestant evangelical christianity, the person is baptised when the parents feel the child has discerned right from wrong in their eyes. usually 7-9 years old in the modern church. i was five and was disappointed

For example as someone from a modern protestant evangelical Christianity I was baptized as a baby, and adult baptism to me is a born-again thing. Child baptism would just be weird.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Sep 15, 2021

# ? Sep 15, 2021 11:45

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

I was baptised in a dress at a few months old.

Don't remember much but I've seen a photo of my dad holding a newly baptised me looking annoyed because apparently he didn't want to have me baptised at all. Not sure if he's opposed to infant baptism on some religious or moral grounds . It's never come up. Never known him to attend church but we're Lutheran up here so even religious people don't really go to church. He's a sea captain so he probably just worships Poseidon as all sailors do in secret.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 12:20

Emily Spinach: Oct 21, 2010; It�s 🌿Garland🌿!😯😯😯 No�🙅 I am become😤 😈CHAOS👿! MMMMH😋 GHAAA😫

FreudianSlippers posted:

I was baptised in a dress at a few months old.

Don't remember much but I've seen a photo of my dad holding a newly baptised me looking annoyed because apparently he didn't want to have me baptised at all. Not sure if he's opposed to infant baptism on some religious or moral grounds . It's never come up. Never known him to attend church but we're Lutheran up here so even religious people don't really go to church. He's a sea captain so he probably just worships Poseidon as all sailors do in secret.

Your dad should have snuck some salt into the holy water to consecrate you to the sea.

The whole religion/baptism question and the vagaries of American ancestry/identity thing are of interest to me, both as a matter of history and the country's development and because I'm having a baby within the next few weeks and it's made me reflective. I had a whole thing typed up on that but it's probably not super relevant. Still, it was kind of funny, when I was like I don't want to raise our daughter religious but if she decides she wants to go to church or whatever I'd be fine with it as long as it's not an rear end in a top hat religious org, my husband asked if we don't take her how would she even know. I said well, if she spends the night on a Saturday at a friend's house and they go to church, she'd probably go with them, and he looked at me like I'd grown another head. I guess that's less of a thing up here than in the south where I grew up.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 13:23

Brawnfire: Jul 13, 2004; 🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

I went to church with sleepover friends.

...other peoples' churches were always very different. I remember being weirded out that my one friend went to a church where all the wood was painted, while my church had all unpainted wood. Madness!

# ? Sep 15, 2021 13:59

Emily Spinach: Oct 21, 2010; It�s 🌿Garland🌿!😯😯😯 No�🙅 I am become😤 😈CHAOS👿! MMMMH😋 GHAAA😫

Brawnfire posted:

I went to church with sleepover friends.

...other peoples' churches were always very different. I remember being weirded out that my one friend went to a church where all the wood was painted, while my church had all unpainted wood. Madness!

Heresy!

# ? Sep 15, 2021 14:45

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

MeinPanzer posted:

A foundational principle in Protestantism is the idea that God's will is inscrutable to humans

Is this correct? Like I've never been religious but it doesn't sound like something well known and established to me

# ? Sep 15, 2021 14:52

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

FreudianSlippers posted:

I was baptised in a dress at a few months old.

Don't remember much but I've seen a photo of my dad holding a newly baptised me looking annoyed because apparently he didn't want to have me baptised at all. Not sure if he's opposed to infant baptism on some religious or moral grounds . It's never come up. Never known him to attend church but we're Lutheran up here so even religious people don't really go to church. He's a sea captain so he probably just worships Poseidon as all sailors do in secret.

I'm not baptized simply because my parents aren't religious, and neither am I.

There is actually a thing here in Belgium where quite a few people have sought to be 'debaptized', usually out of disgust with the Church for some reason or other. I'm pretty sure that this has no sacramental meaning within Christianity, so I assume it just means that they're stricken from church records and membership rolls.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 14:53

SimonSays: Aug 4, 2006; Simon is the monkey's name

Phlegmish posted:

I'm not baptized simply because my parents aren't religious, and neither am I.

There is actually a thing here in Belgium where quite a few people have sought to be 'debaptized', usually out of disgust with the Church for some reason or other. I'm pretty sure that this has no sacramental meaning within Christianity, so I assume it just means that they're stricken from church records and membership rolls.

I had my baptismal record amended to reflect my apostasy from Catholicism. Got a letter from the Archbishop's office with his seal on it to confirm.

The local humanist association had a good form letter for it.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 14:58

CellBlock: Oct 6, 2005; It just don't stop.

Phlegmish posted:

I'm not baptized simply because my parents aren't religious, and neither am I.

There is actually a thing here in Belgium where quite a few people have sought to be 'debaptized', usually out of disgust with the Church for some reason or other. I'm pretty sure that this has no sacramental meaning within Christianity, so I assume it just means that they're stricken from church records and membership rolls.

That's pretty much it by my understanding, but it can matter because in places where there's state funding of churches, that funding is tied to church membership, and church membership is basically just whatever the church says it is, so "Please take me off of your list" can actually carry some significance.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 15:38

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

DarkCrawler posted:

There is no actual unified Protestantism or Protestant Church. It is way, way more divided then any other form of Christianity. At it's core is "gently caress the pope" and it can go to pretty much anywhere from there.

Yeah of course, but there are clearly established Protestant theologies, and those follow their own logic. I'm not talking about the varieties of modern Protestantism, which are for the most part not founded on theological rigor. I'm talking about early Protestantism, and the context in which the Protestant Work Ethic emerged, in which theologians very much did play an important part in determining the theologies of different groups, and were in fact more concerned with logic and consistency than their Catholic counterparts. I have always wondered how within the logic of those theologies the fundamental conflict between God's will being inscrutable and God's will being visible through prosperity was rationalized.

quote:

Is this correct? Like I've never been religious but it doesn't sound like something well known and established to me

At a quick glance, from Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will:

quote:

[W]e have to argue in one way about God or the will of God as preached, revealed, offered, and worshiped, and in another way about God as he is not preached, not revealed, not offered, not worshiped. To the extent, therefore, that God hides himself and wills to be unknown to us, it is no business of ours. For here the saying truly applies, �Things above us are no business of ours.�...

God must therefore be left to himself in his own majesty, for in this regard we have nothing to do with him, nor has he willed that we should have anything to do with him. But we have something to do with him insofar as he is clothed and set forth in his Word, through which he offers himself to us and which is the beauty and glory with which the psalmist celebrates him as being clothed...

Diatribe, however, deceives herself in her ignorance by not making any distinction between God preached and God hidden, that is, between the Word of God and God himself. God does many things that he does not disclose to us in his word; he also wills many things which he does not disclose himself as willing in his word. Thus he does not will the death of a sinner, according to his word; but he wills it according to that inscrutable will of his. It is our business, however, to pay attention to the word and leave that inscrutable will alone, for we must be guided by the word and not by that inscrutable will. After all, who can direct himself by a will completely inscrutable and unknowable? It is enough to know simply that there is a certain inscrutable will in God, and as to what, why, and how far it wills, that is something we have no right whatever to inquire into, hanker after, care about, or meddle with, but only to fear and adore.

That last quote in particular runs directly counter to ideas of God's grace being manifested through prosperity.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 16:30

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

CellBlock posted:

That's pretty much it by my understanding, but it can matter because in places where there's state funding of churches, that funding is tied to church membership, and church membership is basically just whatever the church says it is, so "Please take me off of your list" can actually carry some significance.

Especially if that church membership means you have to pay a tithe.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 16:40

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

MeinPanzer posted:

Yeah of course, but there are clearly established Protestant theologies, and those follow their own logic. I'm not talking about the varieties of modern Protestantism, which are for the most part not founded on theological rigor. I'm talking about early Protestantism, and the context in which the Protestant Work Ethic emerged, in which theologians very much did play an important part in determining the theologies of different groups, and were in fact more concerned with logic and consistency than their Catholic counterparts. I have always wondered how within the logic of those theologies the fundamental conflict between God's will being inscrutable and God's will being visible through prosperity was rationalized.

At a quick glance, from Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will:

That last quote in particular runs directly counter to ideas of God's grace being manifested through prosperity.

Isn't Luther arguably more just a catalyst for an explosion of largely independent theology? Rather than Lutheranism being something the rest of the Protestant churches grew out of? Lutheranism is also, unsurprisingly, not the most adventurous Protestant theology, since its founder didn't intend to break from the church in the first place. I'm also pretty sure I read something about Luther being appalled at the theological freedoms some of the people who followed him took, so it makes sense if his theology doesn't match later theologies created by more radical thinkers.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 17:34

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Luther isn't even a particularly high or incredibly meaningful authority in most strains of Lutheranism. I grew up in a literal Evangelical Lutheran Church and I didn't read a single writing of the guy until I was close to being an adult. And that was in history class.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 17:41

Pope Hilarius II: Nov 10, 2008

Phlegmish posted:

Although Calvin was hugely influential, there actually seem to be few purely (or mostly) theologically Calvinist churches outside of the Netherlands and Scotland.

Maybe in Switzerland? My brother lives in Geneva and Calvin is still celebrated there as a native son.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 19:28

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

yeah in american churches I've never heard a peep from luther or calvin

# ? Sep 15, 2021 19:43

Triskelli: Sep 27, 2011; I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS

Vivian Darkbloom posted:

TNO has all kinds of weird minigames for politics

I just want to marvel that this mod used the bonkers idea to dam the Adriatic and possibly also the Mediterranean?

# ? Sep 15, 2021 19:49

Leviathan Song: Sep 8, 2010

DarkCrawler posted:

Luther isn't even a particularly high or incredibly meaningful authority in most strains of Lutheranism. I grew up in a literal Evangelical Lutheran Church and I didn't read a single writing of the guy until I was close to being an adult. And that was in history class.

That's a pretty weird experience for the ELCA. We studied both catechisms in the church I grew up in and my current pastor frequently references his writings.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 20:12

Fighting Trousers: May 17, 2011; Does this excite you, girl?

MeinPanzer posted:

Yeah of course, but there are clearly established Protestant theologies, and those follow their own logic. I'm not talking about the varieties of modern Protestantism, which are for the most part not founded on theological rigor. I'm talking about early Protestantism, and the context in which the Protestant Work Ethic emerged, in which theologians very much did play an important part in determining the theologies of different groups, and were in fact more concerned with logic and consistency than their Catholic counterparts. I have always wondered how within the logic of those theologies the fundamental conflict between God's will being inscrutable and God's will being visible through prosperity was rationalized.

The Protestant Work Ethic, as a concept, was really born out of the experiences of English Puritans in the Americas as an explanation for why you had to bust your rear end to make it in the New World when the dang heathen Indians seemed to have it made.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 20:27

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Pope Hilarius II posted:

Maybe in Switzerland? My brother lives in Geneva and Calvin is still celebrated there as a native son.

As far as I know, the Swiss Reformed Church takes influence from multiple sources besides Calvin, including Zwingli, but presumably they're not entirely uniform and I wouldn't be surprised if Protestants in the Geneva area were more explicitly Calvinist.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 20:46

goethe42: Jun 5, 2004; Ich sei, gewaehrt mir die Bitte, in eurem Bunde der Dritte!

Leviathan Song posted:

That's a pretty weird experience for the ELCA. We studied both catechisms in the church I grew up in and my current pastor frequently references his writings.

Same here, although in the part of Germany he lived, basically the birthplace of Lutheranism, which might skew the result a bit.
Seeing the will of God in one's prosperity is basically the opposite of his teachings though.
The first time I've encountered the concept at all was in school, probably in English or religious studies, not sure. I mainly remember that it was described as an amalgam of Calvinism, Anglicanism and greed and seen as a weird and distinctively American thing.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 21:26

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

DarkCrawler posted:

There is no actual unified Protestantism or Protestant Church. It is way, way more divided then any other form of Christianity. At it's core is "gently caress the pope" and it can go to pretty much anywhere from there.

Yeah Protestantism isn't a sect, its a category of sects, and an insanely diverse and broad category at that.

# ? Sep 15, 2021 22:38

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Leviathan Song posted:

That's a pretty weird experience for the ELCA. We studied both catechisms in the church I grew up in and my current pastor frequently references his writings.

ELC of Finland. Catechism (one) but aside from a nod to Luther for the initial organization of the text, we had a modernized version made in like 90's. I'd say it is odd but apparently ELCF and ELCA are about the same size and by my experiences with other Lutheran churches I think they use more modern versions too, so maybe you're the weird ones? :v:

Protestantism!

# ? Sep 16, 2021 11:00

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

DarkCrawler posted:

ELC of Finland. Catechism (one) but aside from a nod to Luther for the initial organization of the text, we had a modernized version made in like 90's. I'd say it is odd but apparently ELCF and ELCA are about the same size and by my experiences with other Lutheran churches I think they use more modern versions too, so maybe you're the weird ones?

Protestantism!

I'm a weird relic in that I've participated in kinkers*. But it was all bible no Catechism there, too. I do have one, however, as they were mailed to 2 000 000 households in 2000 (which was long after I was confirmed).

e: Oh and it wasn't Luther's Catechism anyway, but Huovinen's.

*) If anyone knows a proper English word for them, I'd like to know, but I like my neologism.

3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Sep 16, 2021

# ? Sep 16, 2021 11:50

Tei: Feb 19, 2011; Can't post for 7 days!

I think maps are fun and potentially hilarious.

Religions are absurd enough the potential for hilarity is there.

But poking fun at religion is not fun has ben done to death, sometimes literally. Is very possible that any fun map inspired by religion has already been done by other people. Also, I don't want to do the research required to make a good map with accurate data behind.

So I will post this instead:

Green: USA colonies.
Blue: Hate France
Orange: France

# ? Sep 16, 2021 13:28

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Tei posted:

I think maps are fun and potentially hilarious.

Religions are absurd enough the potential for hilarity is there.

But poking fun at religion is not fun has ben done to death, sometimes literally. Is very possible that any fun map inspired by religion has already been done by other people. Also, I don't want to do the research required to make a good map with accurate data behind.

So I will post this instead:

Green: USA colonies.
Blue: Hate France
Orange: France

Shouldn't USA colonies be yellow in the legend since almost everyone hates France?

# ? Sep 16, 2021 13:31

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Tei posted:

Blue: Hate France

How very Amerocentric of you. (PRO TIP: Aside from ~~former~~ French colonies, only Americans hate the French. Your map legend is poo poo.)

# ? Sep 16, 2021 13:32

Tei: Feb 19, 2011; Can't post for 7 days!

Bel Shazar posted:

Shouldn't USA colonies be yellow in the legend since almost everyone hates France?

The interesting bit is marroc. Is Marroc more a future USA colony or a French colony. What culture is winning there? the french or hollywood?
In a fight between USA and France, who side will Marroc take?

Edit:
[it was too late to do a ninja edit. already somebody saw it]

Tei fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Sep 16, 2021

# ? Sep 16, 2021 13:36

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Tei posted:

The interesting bit is marroc. Is Marroc more a future USA colony or a French colony. What culture is winning there? the french or hollywood?
In a fight between USA and France, who side will Marroc take?

I mean i assume there would be numerous petty squabbles while China built unassailable trading and political links.

# ? Sep 16, 2021 13:38

Tei: Feb 19, 2011; Can't post for 7 days!

Bel Shazar posted:

I mean i assume there would be numerous petty squabbles while China built unassailable trading and political links.

I trought China selected italy has the platform to deploy themselves in europe. Is where the silk road ends.

# ? Sep 16, 2021 13:42

Chikimiki: May 14, 2009

Tei posted:

I think maps are fun and potentially hilarious.

Religions are absurd enough the potential for hilarity is there.

But poking fun at religion is not fun has ben done to death, sometimes literally. Is very possible that any fun map inspired by religion has already been done by other people. Also, I don't want to do the research required to make a good map with accurate data behind.

So I will post this instead:

Green: USA colonies.
Blue: Hate France
Orange: France

Ah yes I "fondly" remember having to deal with Pal and Secam stuff as a young teenager, setting up my parents TV/VCR after moving from Germany to France :v:

# ? Sep 16, 2021 14:09

Pope Hilarius II: Nov 10, 2008

Tei posted:

I trought China selected italy has the platform to deploy themselves in europe. Is where the silk road ends.

And where the Plague entered Europe! It's all coming back, really.

But in all seriousness, China is probably banking more on countries like Greece and Hungary. IIRC it's currently investing in a high-speed rail network that would better connect Central Europe to the Balkans, and Chinese companies already own Piraeus, which is one of the biggest Mediterranean commercial ports.

The Balkan area promises to be an interesting geopolitical battleground once more as it's where the West, Russia and China are all competing for influence (and maybe Turkey, but I honestly don't know that much about Turkish foreign policy and thought their focus was mainly on Syria, the Caucasus and Lybia these days).

# ? Sep 16, 2021 15:27

Space Kablooey: May 6, 2009

Tei posted:

I think maps are fun and potentially hilarious.

Religions are absurd enough the potential for hilarity is there.

But poking fun at religion is not fun has ben done to death, sometimes literally. Is very possible that any fun map inspired by religion has already been done by other people. Also, I don't want to do the research required to make a good map with accurate data behind.

So I will post this instead:

Green: USA colonies.
Blue: Hate France
Orange: France

~~Pretty sure Brazil is NTSC~~ huh its no

edit: the PAL-M used by Brazil is a weird thing where the monochrome signals are the same as NTSC, it has the same 60hz frame rate as NTSC (as that is the same frequency as the power grid), and uses an incompatible number of lines with the broader PAL formats (but it's the same number of lines as NTSC) :confused:

Space Kablooey fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Sep 16, 2021

# ? Sep 16, 2021 15:39

Tweezer Reprise: Aug 6, 2013; It hasn't got six strings, but it's a lot of fun.

The composite color video standards are such a technological miracle that they're completely transparent in modern society. You just modulated the luma (brightness, grayscale) signal with a chroma signal, which contained all the information but was invisible to hardware that wasn't looking for it, and no one had to buy a new TV.

# ? Sep 16, 2021 15:52

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 10:41

Ritz On Toppa Ritz: Oct 14, 2006; You're not allowed to crumble unless I say so.

Didn�t NTSC and PAL/SECAM come about because of the different electrical grids of USA and Europe?

# ? Sep 16, 2021 17:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

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