Electric Vehicles mk3 :I've always wanted to hand-crank my car

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Electric Vehicles mk3 :I've always wanted to hand-crank my car

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Lord Decimus Barnacle: Jun 25, 2005; Hell Gem

Exactly

# ? Sep 16, 2021 23:21

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# ? May 26, 2024 19:17

raggedphoto: May 10, 2008; I'd like to shoot you

Seems like that was kinda the point since it was a joint venture, it'll be interesting to see the differences. Something�like a more mud/dog resistant interior would certainly make me sway towards one over the other if the platform works for my needs.� I believe the Subaru comes with AWD standard and the Toyota is optional and of course price would factor in.�

# ? Sep 16, 2021 23:23

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Details Of The House�s US EV Incentives Proposal (cleantechnica.com)

Relevant bits:

Base credit of $4,000 for EVs with at least 7-10kWh of battery capacity (e.g., all EVs at the moment)
An additional $3,500 for EVs with >40kWh of battery capacity before 2026. Starting in 2027 the limit is >50kWh of battery capacity.
An additional $4,500 if the final assembly (see below) is assembled domestically by a unionized workforce.
An additional $500 if >50% of the components are made in the US (including the batteries).
The tax credit is now refundable (if you are eligible for $7,500 but your tax liability is only $5,000, you get a check for $2,500)
The tax credit is now transferable (dealers can give you the credit as a point of sale rebate, instead of you receiving a check after filing your taxes).
MSRP caps: Sedans: $55,000, Vans: $64,000, SUVs: $69,000, Pickup trucks: $74,000.
Income cap of $400,000 if filing individually, or $800,000 if filing jointly.
Used car incentive: $2,500 or 30% of the purchase price for households with <$150,000 annual income. ~~It's not clear from the article which cap takes precedence; I will confirm elsewhere and update this post.~~ I found the used EV tax credit section in the proposed legislation and summarized it in this post.
Honda, Toyota, and Elon Musk are being turds, as usual.

According to part 4 of the EVAdoption series linked below, the definition of "final assembly" is:

quote:

According to Cornell Law School Legal Information Institute, �final assembly� means all operations involved in the assembly of a vehicle, performed at the final assembly point including but not limited to assembly of body panels, painting, final chassis assembly, trim installation, except engine and transmission fabrication and assembly and the fabrication of motor vehicle equipment components produced at the same final assembly point using forming processes such as stamping, machining or molding processes.

EVAdoption had a good series talking the impact of some of the proposed changes a few weeks ago:

It's not clear to me if the per-manufacturer sales cap is still in place or not. The EVAdoption series seemed to think that the house version of the legislation would remove the cap, but I don't see anything about that in the CleanTechnica summary and a quick scan through the proposal didn't turn up anything obvious. I will research more and report back. The per-manufacturer sales cap is gone; see this post.

This is the proposal from the House Ways and Means Committee, not the final legislation. So there's still plenty of horse trading that needs to happen, plus a final vote in the House, a vote in the Senate, and a signature by the President before this thing becomes law. In other words, some or all of these provisions could be changed or removed.

Overall I'm pretty happy with what they've done I'm generally opposed to means testing (the income caps) for a couple of reasons, but the cap is high enough in the proposal that I'm okay with that one. I wish the used car credit was less stingy and had a higher cap, though.

Edit: Fix typos.
Edit 2: Added link to post summarizing the used EV tax credit rules.
Edit 3: Added link to post confirming that the per-manufacturer sales cap has been removed.

MrPablo fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Sep 17, 2021

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:05

Ola: Jul 19, 2004

Does the MSRP cap mean if the car is 1 dollar above, no credit at all?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:19

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Ola posted:

Does the MSRP cap mean if the car is 1 dollar above, no credit at all?

I believe so, but I don't know for sure because I haven't read the proposed legislation yet.

For what it's worth, part 3 of the EVAdoption series had a bunch of similar questions. For example, does the limit apply to a specific model, or an entire "line"? In other words, if there's a base model that's below the cap, are all the models in that line eligible?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:22

Nfcknblvbl: Jul 15, 2002

I was planning on getting the Lightning Lariat+ which has the big battery, and it's $79k. If I can't get all that sweet, sweet cash then I'll have to reconsider.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:33

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Ola posted:

Does the MSRP cap mean if the car is 1 dollar above, no credit at all?

Following up on this question. If I am reading the legislation correctly, it looks like the answer is that credit does not apply when the MSRP exceeds the applicable limitation. From page 286 of the proposed legislation (pdf):

quote:

(d) MANUFACTURER�S SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE LIMITATION.�
(1) IN GENERAL.�No credit shall be allowed under subsection (a) for a vehicle with a manufacturer�s suggested retail price in excess of the applicable limitation.
(2) APPLICABLE LIMITATION.�For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable limitation for each vehicle classification is as follows:
(A) SEDANS.�In the case of a sedan, $55,000.
...

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:38

Godzilla07: Oct 4, 2008

While no one except for Tesla and I guess Polestar is interesting in making a car-shaped EV that sells for less than $80K right now, just lol @ SUVs and pickup trucks having significantly higher cost caps :911:

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:41

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Nfcknblvbl posted:

I was planning on getting the Lightning Lariat+ which has the big battery, and it's $79k. If I can't get all that sweet, sweet cash then I'll have to reconsider.

Don't give up hope just yet; my guess is that if this legislation is passed, manufacturers will magically introduce base models which are priced right at the cap.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:44

Ola: Jul 19, 2004

I don't know why they do those dumb hard limits that are so easy to game. Oh this EV Hummer? Yeah msrp is $54999. Yep comes with a poison ivy interior and suicide spike steering wheel. You want the deluxe package which removes those? No problem, that option is $74000. Oh and yeah, full tax credits apply!

Instead, you could apply a fixed discount part plus a percentage part with a max value for the percentage part. That way the discount is big for the cheapest and tails off for the expensive.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 00:45

bird with big dick: Oct 21, 2015

You think Bring a Trailer would be good for listing a Mach-E GT right now? Cars and Bids? Ebaymotors? Craigslist casual encounters section?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:02

cruft: Oct 25, 2007

Ola posted:

I don't know why they do those dumb hard limits that are so easy to game. Oh this EV Hummer? Yeah msrp is $54999. Yep comes with a poison ivy interior and suicide spike steering wheel. You want the deluxe package which removes those? No problem, that option is $74000. Oh and yeah, full tax credits apply!

Pretty sure Tesla did exactly this in Canada.

It was a model 3 with the battery capacity reduced in software to give it, like, 100 mile range or something. But it got them their tax credit.

It's kind of a sea change that the manufacturer can just update a couple lines of code and *poof* you have a car you can sell cheaper without having to pay somebody to install a poison ivy interior and suicide spike steering wheel.

cruft fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 17, 2021

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:08

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Ola posted:

I don't know why they do those dumb hard limits that are so easy to game. Oh this EV Hummer? Yeah msrp is $54999. Yep comes with a poison ivy interior and suicide spike steering wheel. You want the deluxe package which removes those? No problem, that option is $74000. Oh and yeah, full tax credits apply!

Instead, you could apply a fixed discount part plus a percentage part with a max value for the percentage part. That way the discount is big for the cheapest and tails off for the expensive.

I agree that a hard cutoff seems kind of harsh. That said, I'm fine with whatever gets people out of fossil fuel vehicles and into EVs as fast as possible. If that's an MSRP cap, then so be it.

According to part 3 of the EVAdoption series, the intention of an MSRP cap is to encourage manufacturers to produce more low-cost EVs.

quote:

For consumers, an MSRP cap I believe is a good thing as it forces the automakers to produce lower-priced versions of their EVs, making them more approachable to more people. But a cap at $80,000 doesn�t really help achieve this goal but really will likely just end up making $90,000 and $100,000 EVs more affordable to those who can afford them.

Where I sit, the primary goal of an MSRP cap should be to incentivize OEMs to produce more affordable EVs � and $80,000 is simply too high. While somewhat arbitrary amounts of $40,000 and $60,000 are most often tossed around, I�ve suggested in the past a declining amount added to either the US average or median price of new cars and trucks. According to JD Power, the recent ATP (average transaction price) was $40,206. Perhaps the cap is $50,000, in essence $40,000 for the average vehicle cost plus $10,000 for the EV price differential which the tax credit then neutralizes with the maximum credit amount of from $7,500 to $12,500.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:14

gwrtheyrn: Oct 21, 2010; AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!

MrPablo posted:

According to part 3 of the EVAdoption series, the intention of an MSRP cap is to encourage manufacturers to produce more low-cost EVs.

This is all well and good in theory, but then why is the sedan limit set to 15k over the average of all cars including more expensive suvs/trucks/whatever? And then said suv/trucks go up from there? All the while encouraging companies to price vehicles at or near those limits

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:19

MomJeans420: Mar 19, 2007

We shouldn't be subsidizing cars at $50k, let alone $74k

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:19

cruft: Oct 25, 2007

gwrtheyrn posted:

This is all well and good in theory, but then why is the sedan limit set to 15k over the average of all cars including more expensive suvs/trucks/whatever? And then said suv/trucks go up from there? All the while encouraging companies to price vehicles at or near those limits

Maybe they're trying to lure Tesla into providing a lower-cost Model 3?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:23

Ola: Jul 19, 2004

MrPablo posted:

I agree that a hard cutoff seems kind of harsh. That said, I'm fine with whatever gets people out of fossil fuel vehicles and into EVs as fast as possible. If that's an MSRP cap, then so be it.

According to part 3 of the EVAdoption series, the intention of an MSRP cap is to encourage manufacturers to produce more low-cost EVs.

I totally agree with that sentiment, it's just that a hard cap is so dumb because it rules out the honest car maker who simply couldn't make it 1 dollar cheaper and it enables the cheating car maker who plays tricks with the real purchase price.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:24

gwrtheyrn: Oct 21, 2010; AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!

Ola posted:

I totally agree with that sentiment, it's just that a hard cap is so dumb because it rules out the honest car maker who simply couldn't make it 1 dollar cheaper and it enables the cheating car maker who plays tricks with the real purchase price.

Make msrp lower than invoice and mysteriously all the dealers have market price adjustments :v

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:29

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

gwrtheyrn posted:

This is all well and good in theory, but then why is the sedan limit set to 15k over the average of all cars including more expensive suvs/trucks/whatever? And then said suv/trucks go up from there? All the while encouraging companies to price vehicles at or near those limits

That's a good question, and I have no idea. Maybe if the MSRP cap is too low then it would be unworkable for manufacturers? Maybe it's a starting point and it will be negotiated up or down when it comes up for a vote in the house? Maybe they started with a baseline derived from current EV sedan prices?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:30

gwrtheyrn: Oct 21, 2010; AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!

MrPablo posted:

That's a good question, and I have no idea.

I mean the most obvious answer is the auto industry wants to make more money by selling more expensive cars, and given their influence on policy, it's probably the most likely one. Setting a high limit allows them to make more money while pretending to encourage affordability. They clearly are able to build sedans under 55k--the sr+ tesla 3, polestar 2 rwd, and ioniq ev all fall under this in certain configurations. Hell, the kona, niro, and bolt also all fall under this. The low and middle trims of the EV6 and Ioniq 5 probably will, a fair number of mach-e and id.4 configurations will as well. I guess maybe if they're counting all of those crossovery things as sedans and reserving SUV for things like the rivian R1S, model X, and the hummer, then it'd make a bit more sense?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:39

SpaceCadetBob: Dec 27, 2012

So ford is gonna double lightning production to 80k per year and they still have 2 full loving years worth of reservations?

gently caress im never gonna be able to get one.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 01:48

Bone Crimes: Mar 7, 2007

bird with big dick posted:

You think Bring a Trailer would be good for listing a Mach-E GT right now? Cars and Bids? Ebaymotors? Craigslist casual encounters section?

I thought you were gonna stick with it?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 02:07

Edward IV: Jan 15, 2006

Lord Decimus Barnacle posted:

I�d be surprised if it was anything more than a rebadged Toyota bz4x honestly.

Yeah it pretty much looks like it is.

https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/g36145522/toyota-bz4x-concept-revealed-gallery/?slide=3
https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/g37445772/2023-subaru-solterra-teaser-gallery/?slide=2

After the reveal of the WRX, that may not necessarily be a bad thing, though.

From some of the other teaser shots, the center console appears to be from Toyota.
https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/g37445772/2023-subaru-solterra-teaser-gallery/?slide=3
https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/g35789537/2021-toyota-avalon-awd-by-the-numbers-gallery/?slide=21

Assuming the pricing and range are reasonable, the Solterra is basically at the top of my list. On the other hand, I predominately work from home now and thus no longer have a commute so I can get away with just having my gas guzzling Forester XT and maybe a cargo e-bike or electric moped for short trips and errands. I do eventually want something electric to supplement the Forester especially for those short trips or if I have to commute again or I'm expecting to crawl through NYC.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 02:52

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Ola posted:

I totally agree with that sentiment, it's just that a hard cap is so dumb because it rules out the honest car maker who simply couldn't make it 1 dollar cheaper and it enables the cheating car maker who plays tricks with the real purchase price.

Found the flaw in your logic!

Seriously though, that is a good point and I would like to see the rationale for the hard cutoff (as opposed to a phased reduction like you proposed) and the rationale for the dollar amount for the vehicle categories (e.g., shouldn't we be encouraging more efficient vehicles, and, if so, isn't that an argument in favor of a higher credit for sedans than for SUVs?).

# ? Sep 17, 2021 03:04

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

MrPablo posted:

...

Used car incentive: $2,500 or 30% of the purchase price for households with <$150,000 annual income. It's not clear from the article which cap takes precedence; I will confirm elsewhere and update this post.

...

I found the relevant text in "SEC. 36D. PREVIOUSLY-OWNED QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELEC17 TRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES" on page 301 of the proposed legislation (pdf).

The section is long and convoluted, but the used car EV credit rules are as follows:

$1,250 + MIN($1,250, $208.50 * MAX(0, battery capacity in kWh - 4kWh))). So if you were trying to buy a used EV with a 5kWh battery, the tax credit would be $1,458.50, not $2,500. I don't really think this one is an issue, since small even small PHEV battery packs are on the order of of 13kWh (and I don't care that much about encouraging PHEV sales).
Cannot exceed 30% of the sale price of the vehicle. So if you were buying a used EV for $5,000 then the $2,500 credit would be capped to $1,500.
The used car tax credit starts to phase out if you report more than $150,000 filing jointly, $112,500 if you are filing individually as a "head of household", or $75,000 if you're filing individually. The phaseout rules reduce the credit by $200 for every $1,000 your adjusted gross income is over the limit.
The sale price of the used EV cannot exceed $25,000. So if you buy a used EV for $26,000 would not be eligible for the credit.
The model year of the used EV must be at least two years less than the calendar date. So if you buy a used 2021 vehicle in the year 2022, you would not be eligible for the used EV credit.
The used EV credit appears to be limited to the first sale to another individual (assuming I'm interpreting the text correctly, see quote #1 below)
You are only eligible for the used EV tax credit every 3 years. (see quote #2 below)

I highlighted the entries that I think are particularly silly.

This is the text which appears to limit the used EV credit is limited to the first sale to another individual:

quote:

(2) QUALIFIED SALE.�The term �qualified sale� means a sale of a motor vehicle�
...
(C) which is the first transfer since the date of the enactment of this section to a person other than the person with whom the original use of such vehicle commenced.

And this is the text which appears to limit a person's used EV tax credit use to once every 3 years:

quote:

(3) QUALIFIED BUYER.�The term �qualified buyer� means, with respect to a sale of a motor vehicle, a taxpayer�
...
(D) who has not been allowed a credit under this section for any sale during the 3-year period ending on the date of the sale of such vehicle

# ? Sep 17, 2021 03:51

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

MrPablo posted:

Details Of The House’s US EV Incentives Proposal (cleantechnica.com)

Relevant bits:

Base credit of $4,000 for EVs with at least 7-10kWh of battery capacity (e.g., all EVs at the moment)

An additional $3,500 for EVs with >40kWh of battery capacity before 2026. Starting in 2027 the limit is >50kWh of battery capacity.

An additional $4,500 if the final assembly (see below) is assembled domestically by a unionized workforce.

An additional $500 if >50% of the components are made in the US (including the batteries).

The tax credit is now refundable (if you are eligible for $7,500 but your tax liability is only $5,000, you get a check for $2,500)

The tax credit is now transferable (dealers can give you the credit as a point of sale rebate, instead of you receiving a check after filing your taxes).

MSRP caps: Sedans: $55,000, Vans: $64,000, SUVs: $69,000, Pickup trucks: $74,000.

Income cap of $400,000 if filing individually, or $800,000 if filing jointly.

Used car incentive: $2,500 or 30% of the purchase price for households with <$150,000 annual income. ~~It's not clear from the article which cap takes precedence; I will confirm elsewhere and update this post.~~ I found the used EV tax credit section in the proposed legislation and summarized it in this post.

Honda, Toyota, and Elon Musk are being turds, as usual.

Those values seem custom-made to appeal to Tesla, what in the world could Musk be upset abou...

MrPablo posted:

[*]Income cap of $400,000 if filing individually, or $800,000 if filing jointly.

Ah, of course, Musk is mad for his fellow rich people

# ? Sep 17, 2021 05:36

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Indiana_Krom posted:

I actually looked up what GM is saying to do while people wait for their vehicle to get its battery replaced and like the most restrictive thing is that people should park theirs outside and don't charge it indoors overnight, otherwise their recommendations are just ordinary stuff everyone with an EV should already be doing. Like "set your charge limit to 90%" "charge frequently" "don't deep discharge the battery". They are not saying people should avoid driving it at all, seems like you can use it pretty much normally. I think someone wanting to return the car because GM is eventually going to give them a free new battery is being unreasonable.

I don't know about the Kona, but the Niro has a slightly larger capacity battery than what it charges up to at 100%.

I level 1 or 2 charge to 100%. Level 3? 90%.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 05:57

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

borkencode posted:

Photos of the truck rolling off the line
https://twitter.com/RJScaringe/status/1437842808384233477

Officially petitioning you to name your boat "The Forums"

What is the base $$$ on these?

# ? Sep 17, 2021 05:58

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

DoomTrainPhD posted:

Welcome to the club!
A fully electric sailboat is pretty much the best way to see the world if you can swing the startup cost (that's a big if.)

For a blue-water ready boat you have two main types:
- Catamaran
- Monohull

Monohulls tend to be far cheaper, but have less livable space and room for solar, while catamarans are spacious, have lots of living space, are far more expensive, but hold their value well.

A decent, livable, blue-water-ready cat is going to run you 250k~+ depending on features and options, whereas a monohull will run you 100k~+. Keep in mind that while expensive, you are buying what's equivalent to a floating house. Other things that people don't think about are updating the lead-acid batteries to lithium-ion, adding water makers, updating electronics, etc.

My wife and I plan on getting a 48~' cat when the RSU's vest, taking sailing lessons and then retiring by sailing around the world a bit (point Nemo is on the bucket list as well!) Join us!

My brother in law is selling his Lagoon 45 for about $500k. That's a pretty luxurious boat.

(sadly he doesn't get along with his sister so I've not sailed in it :-( )

# ? Sep 17, 2021 06:00

trilobite terror: Oct 20, 2007; BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

VideoGameVet posted:

My brother in law is selling his Lagoon 45 for about $500k. That's a pretty luxurious boat.

(sadly he doesn't get along with his sister so I've not sailed in it :-( )

maybe if a certain gentlegoon buys it you�ll have your chance...

# ? Sep 17, 2021 06:29

raggedphoto: May 10, 2008; I'd like to shoot you

VideoGameVet posted:

What is the base $$$ on these?

https://rivian.com/configurator/r1t

Starting price is about $67,000 and goes up quickly from there. My dream build is close to $80k so not going to be able to afford one anytime soon. Figured out that even after 10 years of ownership it�s still about $600 a month in cost. Maybe someday..

# ? Sep 17, 2021 06:43

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

I wouldn't normally post a video like this, except Tesla DMCA'd it so now I kind of feel obligated. Here's a video of a Tesla attempting an illegal right turn into a bunch of pedestrians, stopped at the last second by the driver:

https://twitter.com/k_pendergrast/status/1438545080193720345

Automated driving is a cool idea and all but if you have this feature, for the love of god, please be careful and attentive

# ? Sep 17, 2021 08:52

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

I feel like having to babysit an AI that could possibly launch you into pedestrians or street furniture is a lot more stressful and annoying than actually just driving the car yourself.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 10:50

Tyro: Nov 10, 2009

QuarkJets posted:

Those values seem custom-made to appeal to Tesla, what in the world could Musk be upset abou...

Ah, of course, Musk is mad for his fellow rich people

It's the union workforce bit that pissed him off

# ? Sep 17, 2021 11:00

mattfl: Aug 27, 2004

bird with big dick posted:

You think Bring a Trailer would be good for listing a Mach-E GT right now? Cars and Bids? Ebaymotors? Craigslist casual encounters section?

I almost sold my custom Jeep on Cars and Bids, got pretty far into the process before I sold it locally. Note that if you list it with them you're not supposed to have it listed anywhere else. Since it's such a new hot thing I bet you could even get Doug to feature it, hell have him do a review with it as well! I imagine you can get a pretty good price over MSRP for it as well.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 12:07

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

Tyro posted:

It's the union workforce bit that pissed him off

Agreed. In case anyone is wondering, the bits that have Musk's knickers in a twist. are on pages 285 and 294 of the proposed legislation (pdf):

quote:

(4) DOMESTIC ASSEMBLY.�In the case of a new qualified plug-in vehicle which satisfies the domestic assembly qualifications, the amount determined under this paragraph is $4,500.
...
�(1) DOMESTIC ASSEMBLY QUALIFICATIONS.� The term �domestic assembly qualifications� means, with respect to any new qualified plug-in electric vehicle, that the final assembly of such vehicle occurs at a plant, factory, or other place which is operating under a collective bargaining agreement negotiated by an employee organization (as defined in section 412(c)(4)), determined in a manner consistent with section 7701(a)(46).

# ? Sep 17, 2021 12:24

MrPablo: Mar 21, 2003

MrPablo posted:

It's not clear to me if the per-manufacturer sales cap, is still in place or not. The EVAdoption series seemed to think that the house version of the legislation would remove the cap, but I don't see anything about that in the CleanTechnica summary and a quick scan through the proposal didn't turn up anything obvious. I will research more and report back.

I read through the entire EV tax credit section of the proposed legislation and confirmed there is no mention of a per-manufacturer sales cap. The previous per-manufacturer sales cap was part of section 30D, which the proposed legislation strikes entirely:

quote:

(c) REPEAL OF NONREFUNDABLE NEW QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLE CREDIT.� Subpart B of part IV of subchapter A of chapter 1 is amended by striking section 30D (and by striking the item relating to such section in the table of sections of such subpart).

MrPablo fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Sep 17, 2021

# ? Sep 17, 2021 12:29

cakesmith handyman: Jul 22, 2007; Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Olympic Mathlete posted:

I feel like having to babysit an AI that could possibly launch you into pedestrians or street furniture is a lot more stressful and annoying than actually just driving the car yourself.

Relaxing: you take care of the dumb easy parts of driving, the car reacts to sudden changes or risks faster than you could.

Stressful AF: the car does the easy bit but you have to hyperattentively watch and be ready to grab the wheel to stop it driving you into a concrete pillar or bus queue full of children.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 12:34

Ola: Jul 19, 2004

cakesmith handyman posted:

Relaxing: you take care of the dumb easy parts of driving, the car reacts to sudden changes or risks faster than you could.

Stressful AF: the car does the easy bit but you have to hyperattentively watch and be ready to grab the wheel to stop it driving you into a concrete pillar or bus queue full of children.

I'm more:

Relaxed autopilot: You're captain of the ship on the high seas, you can keep a wide lookout while the inexperienced helmsman handles the course keeping. If he does something weird, you immediately sense it by the seat of your pants because it deviates a lot from the chill cruise you should be feeling.

Stressed autopilot: Same roles, but now you are in narrow waters or near the dock. A sharp turn can be correct or it can be completely wrong, you don't know by the seat of your pants unless you also have a detailed picture of the immediate situation. This means you don't have a wide lookout but you're looking down close and constantly waiting for the right input, or trying to follow a poor input through to see if it deviates so much you have to take over.

Ok, that's not very elegantly put, but there is a thing people do with the autopilot like it's a child riding a bike for the first time. You're following along, ready to take over, it starts to go bad but you give it some slack because you hope it will make it. Taking the turn too fast, going wide, "look honey, the machine is learni..." *crash*

# ? Sep 17, 2021 13:17

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 26, 2024 19:17

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

So you're saying that autopilot should only be used on completely empty rural highways that go mostly strait through gentle terrain, like a ship on calm seas.

# ? Sep 17, 2021 14:18

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Electric Vehicles mk3 :I've always wanted to hand-crank my car

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