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pretty hilarious considering for example Germany, which has guns that don't shoot, helicopters that don't fly (and don'T have guns), tanks that don't drive and no way to get these things anywhere. All this is saying is that France should go to war or something. Now that the UK is gone, the EU has no army besides that. This is good, don't get me wrong
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Sep 15, 2021 15:27
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France and the UK were the primary drivers behind interventions in Yugoslavia and Libya and certainly agitated for intervention in Syria. If France could define European foreign policy it would probably be as disastrous as Americas but I really don't think Germany, the Med or the East have much interest in military adventurism.
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Sep 15, 2021 15:50
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That's a weird post tbh. The German army is pretty well equipped and its readiness is completely fine for a peace time army. It is equipped as a defensive army to counter an equivtech opponent, so having a chaingun to light up reporters and children isn't really required on a helicopter. It isn't set up to fight wars of aggression, but that's fine by me. What's not fine is the endemic corruption of the CDU/CSU that has resulted in horrific mismanagement with private suppliers of replacement parts, but that's CDU/CSU for you.
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Sep 15, 2021 15:51
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A division sized Rapid Reaction Force (which is usually whats argued for) of 2-3 brigades with logistical support makes a lot of sense. The debacle of the Afghanistan withdrawal shows how completely dependent on the US every European state is currently. Even countries that wanted to stay on longer to keep evacuating interpreters etc couldn't once the Americans decided on an end date, because every EU country is completely dependent on them. This dependency while bad at the moment is only going to get worse when Trump or Ted Cruz or someone similarly insane gets into power in 2024 or 2028. A RRF of 10-15k~ also isn't going to be used on some imperialist adventure to invade Iran or wherever. Its small enough to preclude such adventures, while still being large enough to protect EU interests in emergency situations as required. And if its staffed with actual EU citizens (unlike say the French Foreign Legion, which gets thrown around Africa because its casualties don't matter) its going to be casualty shy enough that its going to see far more use responding to natural disasters than getting shot at.
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Sep 15, 2021 17:01
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Celexi posted:Portugal when I was a kid didn't even give nationality to a baby born in Portugal if the parents were undocumented, creating a vicious cycle of radicalization. Most countries just don't do jus soli at all, it's pretty much the former colonies where that made sense.
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Sep 15, 2021 20:42
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Antigravitas posted:so having a chaingun to light up reporters and children isn't really required on a helicopter. the best german quote
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Sep 16, 2021 03:57
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Blut posted:A RRF of 10-15k~ also isn't going to be used on some imperialist adventure to invade Iran or wherever. Its small enough to preclude such adventures, while still being large enough to protect EU interests in emergency situations as required. And if its staffed with actual EU citizens (unlike say the French Foreign Legion, which gets thrown around Africa because its casualties don't matter) its going to be casualty shy enough that its going to see far more use responding to natural disasters than getting shot at. It'll never happen though because it'd give the Commission something concrete to hold over member state parliaments.
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Sep 16, 2021 06:04
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Given the big 3 EU (FRA/ITA/GER) powers, and the EU bureaucracy itself, are in favour of it its highly likely to happen at some point. It just depends on when and in what form. That combination almost always get their way, even if it takes a while. If/when the US gets another Trumpian president who dislikes NATO, likes Putin, and is heavily unilateral or isolationist that will probably give the project the support in the more middle-ground EU states that it needs to get it over the line.
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Sep 16, 2021 12:04
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Having a defensive force and one capable of power projection are two different things. Like what we should be doing is a rapid response force and then the world's greatest engineer corps, cause the poo poo that's coming we wont need long range bombers and aircraft carriers. Even protecting shipping lanes, which should be a multinational force task thing is being replaced by drone surveillance and quick strikes. If someone looks at what happened in Syria , lybia and Afghanistan and the conclusion is "what we really need is a expeditionary force and a big airforce" they should have their head dunked in the toilet.
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Sep 16, 2021 13:46
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Blut posted:Given the big 3 EU (FRA/ITA/GER) powers, and the EU bureaucracy itself, are in favour of it its highly likely to happen at some point. It just depends on when and in what form. That combination almost always get their way, even if it takes a while. I don't think anyone can straddle the question of who gets to be in command though. If you say the commission/EU parliament then the EU will fracture to hell and back. If you say any member state then you really have achieved very little.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:11
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MiddleOne posted:I don't think anyone can straddle the question of who gets to be in command though. If you say the commission/EU parliament then the EU will fracture to hell and back. If you say any member state then you really have achieved very little.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:31
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Having a defensive force and one capable of power projection are two different things. A RRF is exactly whats proposed, though. Nobody has ever suggested an expeditionary force for invasions or an EU airforce. MiddleOne posted:I don't think anyone can straddle the question of who gets to be in command though. If you say the commission/EU parliament then the EU will fracture to hell and back. If you say any member state then you really have achieved very little. EUROFOR, the most similar example we have, was directly answerable to the WEU with no command and control issues. Any potential new EU-RRF would likely see itself run by a re-constituted WEU style body - ie a council of Defense ministers with day to day operations run by permanent staff.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Compromise: The EU military answers to the ECB. After inscrutable bureaucracy somehow the Vatican ends up in charge.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:25
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Heads of state of the member states come together and elect a Kaiser. It worked for the holy Roman empire
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Sep 16, 2021 15:36
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"Worked"
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Sep 16, 2021 15:36
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One tiny thirty years war notwithstanding
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Sep 16, 2021 15:46
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aphid_licker posted:One tiny thirty years war notwithstanding Basically nothing by European standards
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Sep 16, 2021 15:55
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Then we can have a tiny hundred years war with the Brits, it all comes together wonderfully!
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Sep 16, 2021 16:03
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Can't wait to subscribe to Jeanne d'Arc's Instagram
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Sep 16, 2021 16:34
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Orange Devil posted:After inscrutable bureaucracy somehow the Vatican ends up in charge. After lots of bickering between member states it has been decided that the octopus that predicts football matches is in charge of the EU military. Octopus has to pick between two boxes labeled "Sit still" and "Do nothing but say we did"
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Sep 16, 2021 18:04
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Orange Devil posted:"Worked"
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Sep 16, 2021 18:12
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Maybe a dumb suggestion, but couldn't there be a Commissioner for Defence, with Parliament ultimately approving or disapproving actions? I also propose an official military marching song for the EU army, penned by an Austro-Hungarian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B0CyOAO8y0&t=13s As a side note, it never not has me in stitches that Fucik actually thought this would be a martial song to march into war to. It makes me depict Austro-Hungarian troops arriving in the trenches in oversized clown shoes, red wigs and on unicycles.
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Sep 17, 2021 16:11
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Pope Hilarius II posted:Maybe a dumb suggestion, but couldn't there be a Commissioner for Defence, with Parliament ultimately approving or disapproving actions?
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Sep 17, 2021 16:42
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Pope Hilarius II posted:As a side note, it never not has me in stitches that Fucik actually thought this would be a martial song to march into war to. It makes me depict Austro-Hungarian troops arriving in the trenches in oversized clown shoes, red wigs and on unicycles. I mean, have you seen landskneckt outfits?
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Sep 17, 2021 16:44
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Pope Hilarius II posted:Maybe a dumb suggestion, but couldn't there be a Commissioner for Defence, with Parliament ultimately approving or disapproving actions? Problem is that nobody's gonna stand for the EU Parliament deciding lol it's war over whatever their own national Parliament said
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Sep 17, 2021 16:50
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Just do a referendum everytime, war yes or no?
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Sep 17, 2021 17:14
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aphid_licker posted:Problem is that nobody's gonna stand for the EU Parliament deciding lol it's war over whatever their own national Parliament said There is basically zero chance of the German population agreeing with sending a EU army on French colonial adventures in Africa. And there is probably zero chance of France agreeing on a federally controlled EU army that can't go on colonial adventures in Africa. The only solution seems to be either for the French to give up their empire or for Germany to start getting its population into bloodlust again.
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Sep 17, 2021 17:25
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Pope Hilarius II posted:As a side note, it never not has me in stitches that Fucik actually thought this would be a martial song to march into war to. It makes me depict Austro-Hungarian troops arriving in the trenches in oversized clown shoes, red wigs and on unicycles. The only front where Austria-Hungary was even a little bit competent during WW1 was the Italian front, everywhere else they might as well marched to this music dressed as clowns. It would have at least been a step up.
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Sep 17, 2021 17:29
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*Dutch Delegate*: What if, now hear me out before you call me a racist fossil, we called the European Army the VoC and used our military might to secure the spice trade?
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Sep 17, 2021 17:53
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An insane mind posted:*Dutch Delegate*: What if, now hear me out before you call me a racist fossil, we called the European Army the VoC and used our military might to secure the spice trade? But everyone in Central/Northern Europe is scared of spices more exotic than salt. 
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Sep 17, 2021 18:36
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We shall secure the Dill Islands with an iron, pickled fist
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Sep 17, 2021 18:48
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GABA ghoul posted:There is basically zero chance of the German population agreeing with sending a EU army on French colonial adventures in Africa. And there is probably zero chance of France agreeing on a federally controlled EU army that can't go on colonial adventures in Africa. Couldn't we just have an army like this? Never does anything because all the arguments between the member states.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:51
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gently caress off Batman posted:The only front where Austria-Hungary was even a little bit competent during WW1 was the Italian front, everywhere else they might as well marched to this music dressed as clowns. It would have at least been a step up. Yes, that's also one of the many reasons why that tune is hilarious.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:05
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GABA ghoul posted:or for Germany to start getting its population into bloodlust again. Paasikivi knew what he was talking about 
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Sep 17, 2021 20:58
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An insane mind posted:*Dutch Delegate*: What if, now hear me out before you call me a racist fossil, we called the European Army the VoC and used our military might to secure the spice trade?
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Sep 17, 2021 21:08
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Antigravitas posted:That's a weird post tbh. the less shooty stuff they have that actually works, the less likely they are to lobby, whilst bored, that perhaps we should try out our shooty stuff in <poor country X> - see France. the fact that they didn't build a gun into our attack helicopter has literally saved hundreds of lives, if not more considering what a joke rear end outfit the Bundeswehr is. And a good portion of the Bundeswehr today are the people who signed up to finally become a soldier or something after school. And not to be mean, but we all know from experience they were always the dumbest motherfuckers in class. If you don't run like hell after your first experience at Musterung, you aren't right in the head. I know the argument is different in the US where it's the only way to ever see a college from the inside for a good deal of people, but here college is free and not even such a good deal compared to dual/Ausbildung etc. Our soldiers are people who looked at this disfunctional mess of an army and decided out of their own free will that yes, this is the way to go. if anybody thinks shooting poor people dead in foreign countries is cool and noble, please just pick a country other than Germany. Seriously just emigrate. France is right there, and you can like join today and be in Africa tomorrow. We'll have our four guys driving, refilling, and driving some old tanks and drinking beers. Which is 99% of what the Bundeswehr is.
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Sep 17, 2021 23:09
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Haramstufe Rot posted:...they were always the dumbest motherfuckers in class... Sounds like they outsmarted you by far. They don't even have to risk their lives to get payed and have the best of time.
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Sep 18, 2021 07:00
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Probably eligible for a pretty decent pension in their late 40s too, 20 years before the rest of the population these days. Its a pretty good career choice for working class people even in the EU - theres still the opportunity to get lots of technical skills, live a fairly easy, very stable, life, and get a pension very early in most EU armies. Sure its not as useful for university benefits as the US, but theres far far less chance of being killed by impoverished brown people for the sake of imperialism. Thats a trade I think most people would take.
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Sep 18, 2021 12:28
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It's also basically a job for life if you make nco or above, pretty sweet advantages in home loans,early retirement, dedicated health coverage, you can basically do post-grads and doctorates for free and depending on your specialty you can jump into the private sector after 12-15 years if you are somewhat bored/looking for a bigger pay.
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Sep 18, 2021 20:27
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Well this thread's been dead for a little while, Let's look at some new news in the grand ole Europe Rotterdam police guns down protestors in an anti covid lockdown protest. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/rotterdam-mayor-slams-violent-covid-19-protests-scores-arrested-2021-11-20/
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Nov 21, 2021 04:34
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