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Redundant
Sep 24, 2011

Even robots have feelings!

Infinitum posted:

Have wars about Vertical Vs Horizontal boardgame stacking.
I stack vertically to avoid jostling components all around after I have neatly packed them away but that makes me worry about crushing the bottom box in the stack. With board games literally everything is a logistical nightmare with trade offs as far as the eye can see.

This week I managed to play some Modern Art which is even better than I could've hoped. I got to do the stupid auctioneer fast talking and describe a picture as "headache inducing" before selling it for a small fortune like some kind of bizarro world salesman. 10/10 would sell fine art again.

We also tried to play Viticulture on BGA but after some teething problems and new arrivals we ended up giving up and playing 6 nimmt for a little while instead. Viticulture looks interesting and I hope we get back to it another time. I also floated the idea of Brass: Brum and FCM which people were very interested in so I'll be living the dream of small business ownership soon hopefully.

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Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

Can we talk about Feast for Odin again or am I just years too late?

I have hope for the expansion, mostly to do something about the advantage of going first and how the first turn is basically solved for that player. I'm also not a huge fan of how the first player gets to go first on turn 2 essentially for free by getting to pick cheaper actions.

The fifth column introduced in Norwegians is good but I'd prefer if the first player couldn't easily grab both actions that build a whaling boat. You skip paying for the second boat and grab an island which puts you further ahead. There's other options I might prefer to pick but blocking both boats is strong and annoying for the other players who basically start the game a number of points behind because they made the mistake of not rolling dice good.

FirstAidKite
Nov 8, 2009
When I was in 4th grade there was a project where my class formed groups and we had to make a board game. I don't think it necessarily had to be about anything in particular, just as long as it could arguably be seen as educational in some respect. A lot of the games were basically just roll and move games with some trivia attached to the different spaces, not even questions, just like little tidbits and facts and poo poo.

The game I worked on was the best though because we made a big 3D building out of paper and it went onto the board for no reason other than to look cool. It had flames coming off of it. Everyone was fine though. Just a big paper building that had to be stored separate from the board itself.

9/11 happened the year after so I imagine we probably wouldn't have gone with the theme of "candyland trivia game but there's a big burning building on the board to look cool"

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Brandfarlig posted:

Can we talk about Feast for Odin again or am I just years too late?

I have hope for the expansion, mostly to do something about the advantage of going first and how the first turn is basically solved for that player. I'm also not a huge fan of how the first player gets to go first on turn 2 essentially for free by getting to pick cheaper actions.

The fifth column introduced in Norwegians is good but I'd prefer if the first player couldn't easily grab both actions that build a whaling boat. You skip paying for the second boat and grab an island which puts you further ahead. There's other options I might prefer to pick but blocking both boats is strong and annoying for the other players who basically start the game a number of points behind because they made the mistake of not rolling dice good.

Always the right time to feast.

How does the first player get both whaling boats? Take bigger actions and then get the fifth column first!

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.
https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/star-trek-missions/news/star-trek-missions

I got all excited at the prospect of a star trek game just to read the article and see....that.

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007
"Should we do some nice original art?"
"Nah, just grab some random stills from the show and have an intern slap a few filters on them in GIMP*."

:effort:






*Because they were too cheap to even pay for a Photoshop license, you see.

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters

FirstAidKite posted:

When I was in 4th grade there was a project where my class formed groups and we had to make a board game. I don't think it necessarily had to be about anything in particular, just as long as it could arguably be seen as educational in some respect. A lot of the games were basically just roll and move games with some trivia attached to the different spaces, not even questions, just like little tidbits and facts and poo poo.

The game I worked on was the best though because we made a big 3D building out of paper and it went onto the board for no reason other than to look cool. It had flames coming off of it. Everyone was fine though. Just a big paper building that had to be stored separate from the board itself.

9/11 happened the year after so I imagine we probably wouldn't have gone with the theme of "candyland trivia game but there's a big burning building on the board to look cool"

Once when I was a kid I took a trip with family to visit my grandmother in Auckland. Now I don't know if I got it while there, or brought it with me, but I had the official Earthbound strategy guide with me. And since the newest piece of tech my grandmother had was probably a tv that was close to 15 years old, I was bored as hell.

So I did what any bored kid would do. I grabbed a large piece of poster board and a pencil, and got to work making a boardgame based on Earthbound, after reading the strategy guide cover-to-cover.

It was an extremely simple roll-and-move where you basically went through the events of the game, did boss battles by rolling dice and trying to get more than a number, had lose-a-turn spaces, that kind of thing, but I'm pretty sure I finished the whole thing and was quite proud of it.

When I actually got to play Earthbound, now that poo poo waas good.

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

silvergoose posted:

Always the right time to feast.

How does the first player get both whaling boats? Take bigger actions and then get the fifth column first!

You can do that. It's just that the first player always has the best turn 1 and likely 2 and dumping your vikings faster doesn't really make your turn better. And even if you do get the boat player 1 gets whaling turn 2 too.

Come to think of it, you're hosed. You need 1 wood and 1 silver which is at least 2 actions and then you have no tiles and therefore no income. You need to end your turn in 3 actions to be sure to grab the fifth column boat + island.

Brandfarlig fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Sep 17, 2021

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky
You can go down the knarr special sale or theft route. I have played a lot and don't see whaling boats as automatically the best turn one move. And setting up for horses or cows turn 2 is also a really strong opening if you see other players aren't going to be in a position to take that action.

I quite like building whatever artisanal shed I've got and filling it turn 1 as a strategy too. Or weaving and slapping down the coat immediately on the home board to get a decent starting silver income.

Llyranor
Jun 24, 2013
As a high school project, I did a Choose-your-own-Adventure based on The Outsiders. Basically, you met a gruesome death if you didn't follow the exact plot of the novel.

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

OrthoTrot posted:

You can go down the knarr special sale or theft route. I have played a lot and don't see whaling boats as automatically the best turn one move. And setting up for horses or cows turn 2 is also a really strong opening if you see other players aren't going to be in a position to take that action.

I quite like building whatever artisanal shed I've got and filling it turn 1 as a strategy too. Or weaving and slapping down the coat immediately on the home board to get a decent starting silver income.

I don't see a reason to ever touch special sale. It's easily one of the least picked actions in my games. Even if you do you need money and you're not boosting your income that quickly without an island. You can grab that turn 2, sure, but it's still one turn slower. Theft has the problem of being limited by weapon cards and basically being worse raiding. It's not a bad pick but you may as well be the person who starts raiding/pillaging. Again, not on turn 1 because you don 't have the vikings. I also dislike locking your fifth column pick to justify building a knarr that doesn't do much until a few turns into the game when you're looking to emigrate or mass upgrade green tiles. May as well bite the bullet and get a proper longship.

I don't typically do much with animals except for picking up a pair of horses on turn 3/4 for 20~ points. My base board is usually left to the end of the game (except for grabbing the first 2 income) because the income track on islands (and bonuses) are better.

And the reason I'm stuck on whaling boat turn 1 is because it is the mathematically best action we've found. It's a worker placement with engine building so efficiency is everything, obviously. With 1v for 2 wood, 1v for the boat you get 9 red and 8 green (+a card) for 3 vikings. This is the best rate per tile available in the game, basically. And even if some other action is slightly more efficient whaling still gives you the greatest amount of tiles for one action. With 1 wood and 1 guaranteed spear you need a 3 in 3 rolls which gives you a 58% chance of success. Even if you do fail the 2 vikings you get back can get you enough green tiles to get your income started and you've blocked one of the strongest actions in the game. It also guarantees that you get it on turn 2 since no one else has a boat if you pick up an island instead of upgrading your whale meat and grabbing resources in the fifth column. You can beat the first player to the second whaling boat action but that involves making your turn 1 even weaker.

That, specifically, is my problem. That player 1 always has the best turn 1 and probably 2 and there's essentially nothing to do about it except playing catchup. The person who starts doesn't always win and I couldn't tell you if they're significantly more likely to win but being behind due to nothing else but dice is a flaw in a otherwise fantastic game.

Brandfarlig fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Sep 17, 2021

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Or maybe the second player can get a couple income and another silver and just buy the boat outright, snipe the whaling spot, and the two whaling boats are a big waste, while perhaps that second player also has a knarr, can go thieving, and emigrate with no competition.

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

That would require you to be the starting player turn 2 with at least 3 silver. This means placing vikings at least 4 times if p1 is going the route I mentioned above. You'll spend 2 vikings on laying a snare for 2 income, probably 2 vikings on resources and then you have 2 vikings left. I guess you can upgrade your flax and then pick a fifth column action? That's along the lines of how I usually play when I don't start but I tend to lean towards getting a longship and claiming raiding/pillaging until someone else builds one. With resources you're more likely to succeed with laying a snare than whaling but if you miss you're more hosed than the whaler. You're still behind the person who's sitting with either 17 green tiles and backup resources or 8 green + whale meat and an island but it's not as bad.

And if p1 picks both whaling boat actions they don't build the second one because they don't need to and they don't have the resources anyway. You just use that action to grab an island which is absolutely legal. I'm also not sure about emigrating on turn 2. I like getting started on it early but throwing 4 of your 13 vikings on getting one emigration and one thievery doesn't sit well with me when those actions could be used to put yourself at like 6 income + tile bonuses. You can use the knarr to grab an island, sure, but then you're back at a longship just being a better version of similar actions. I tend to go for income asap so I can just pay for a knarr+emigration from turn 3 onwards. I also avoid paying vikings for boats beyond turn 2 except for the 4v longhouse + knarr for the lategame.

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky
I think we just disagree on the efficiency of whaling. 58% is not a reliable rate of return and even though you get the 2 Vikings back if you fail I think turn 1 can be quite all or nothing - the wasted 1 Viking is still very impactful if you basically have to switch plans halfway through the turn.

Special sale is good turn two if you have a knarr from turn one. You can get a lot of grey tile for very little money: 1 or 2 silver gets you at least 8 tiles worth. If you've got some green down turn one that can be a useful next step, and you can follow up with theft for a further grey tile or a low value blue.

I would recommend trying some of the strategies you say you don't normally go for. You say you don't normally put much on the home board until late - I think it's a viable strategy to get a high income from there and build off it later. And you say you don't usually get animals early - turn 2 horses or cows is absolutely solid as a strategy and is usually what gets fought over in my gaming groups plays of feast. I strongly recommend trying it.

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006
Watching the SUSD review of Robin Hood got me wondering: is there any good new hotness in Experience Games the last few years?

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

OrthoTrot posted:

I think we just disagree on the efficiency of whaling. 58% is not a reliable rate of return and even though you get the 2 Vikings back if you fail I think turn 1 can be quite all or nothing - the wasted 1 Viking is still very impactful if you basically have to switch plans halfway through the turn.

Special sale is good turn two if you have a knarr from turn one. You can get a lot of grey tile for very little money: 1 or 2 silver gets you at least 8 tiles worth. If you've got some green down turn one that can be a useful next step, and you can follow up with theft for a further grey tile or a low value blue.

I would recommend trying some of the strategies you say you don't normally go for. You say you don't normally put much on the home board until late - I think it's a viable strategy to get a high income from there and build off it later. And you say you don't usually get animals early - turn 2 horses or cows is absolutely solid as a strategy and is usually what gets fought over in my gaming groups plays of feast. I strongly recommend trying it.
Well, whaling is still very strong and you're not going to get much better odds on turn 1. You could grab more than 2 wood but that costs you the viking you'd use for a fifth column action.
The income track on most islands is more efficient than the base board so that solution is inherently worse. I sometimes absolutely over commit to islands but getting your income and bonuses from the base board just isn't as good. Special sale being good once is true but that's a lot of vikings for 1 turn of actions. You can emigrate that knarr on turn 3 though so I don't hate the idea.

I'm never sure what to do with animals except for getting horses for points. The advantage of getting them on turn 2 instead of 3/4 is 1 horse, or 6-8 points. Nothing to discount completely but it's easier to grab them on turn 3/4.

It's very likely that I'm damaged by half of my games being 1v1. In a 1v1 you're probably loving up if you can't both raid and whale from turn 3 at the latest. I do find myself in an awkward spot at 3/4 p. Getting 1 island is too little and grabbing 2 takes a few too many tiles which leaves me with a good amount of positive points (170-180) but around 30-40 negative points. I'm absolutely not claiming that my strategy is perfect ( in particular because I lost the last 3p game I was in to a more diverse strategy) but I am saying that if I'm the first player I will always go for whaling because I haven't found a line that gives you a better start.

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

PerniciousKnid posted:

Watching the SUSD review of Robin Hood got me wondering: is there any good new hotness in Experience Games the last few years?

Do the Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective games count? Because the latest version The Baker Street Irregulars is terrific. I talked about it at great length in a different thread.

Magnetic North posted:

Round 3: No Card - Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective: The Baker Street Irregulars

It's the late 1800s and crime is rampant in rainy London. Scotland Yard does what they can, but much is beyond their grasp. Fortunately, there is one man, a genius roused to apply his fantastic powers of deduction only to the most unusual, unexplainable cases. But he is only one man. To aid him, he employs a small army of orphans; quick, clever, scouring the city for information and clues. Indispensible, they are. His Baker Street Irregulars.

The original SHCD is a game from the 80s. If you haven't heard of it, here's the basics: You don't play Holmes, but rather one of the innumerable street urchins in his employ. The basic premise is as such: you get a few paragraphs of fiction, where a character describes the mystery to Holmes. He tasks his irregulars in figuring out the mystery. Then, you take your map of London, a directory of addresses, today's newspaper, and a booklet full of information. If you want go to Scotland Yard, you look them up in the directory, get the special code, and find that in the booklet for your paragraphs of new information. You must use the information to deduce what to do next. You take notes, reason, talk with your partner, make logical leaps, all to attempt to expose more and more information until you get an idea of what happened. Each location you visit should be important, because ostensibly the goal is to try and compete with how quickly Holmes would have figured it out on his own. You might have taken 13 locations, but Holmes did it in 7. There is no shame in being beat by the master, but it lets there be reason to not simply visit everywhere.

In practice, this game plays sort of like a multi-path adventure book, except you can go anywhere at any time, so long as you can think of a reason to go there. The first SHCD is a good game, though I have not played to two later follow-ups (Jack the Ripper and Carlton House) for various reasons. But that original is not the game I've put on this list.

The orignal has some problems. Particularly, every single entry was atomic; there was no 'state' of the game. Therefore, every location had to give you every piece of information that it could ever give you, regardless of context. For instance, if you went to a florist, the game might tell you that a shipment of gloves was stolen last week even though you had no idea that mattered. Even worse, if you go to the right location but for the wrong reason, you get forcibly put back on track, i.e. "We thought the victim was allergic to flowers, but clearly it was the man in the gloves." or whatever.

SHCD: The Baker Street Irregulars is different. Published just last year, it has innovated on the formula. In TBSI, when you get certain clues, it will ask you to mark it down on your sheet. "Circle the letter G" or something. Then, when you go to a location, it may ask you "Do you have a circled letter G? If not, you learn nothing." It is amazing how much this helps the game let you feel like a detective instead of just a reader. This lets you actually find evidence and then use that evidence elsewhere. What a concept! It also means that a half-dozen filthy children cannot simply walk in any important building without first having a very good reason.

The game uses this innovation to great effect. The text can be much more particular about the information it gives you, since it doesn't have to be so generic for those in the cheap seats. But this isn't the only way the writing is improved. The cases are all wonderful; not a dud among them. Also, it felt like most cases were asking us to do something different. Certain cases even have case-specific mechanisms or twists to keep in mind, but they are always easy to follow. I will not say anything else about the cases to avoid spoiling them.

Most importantly, the game is a wonderful, contemplative, exhilarating experience, especially for two. It keeps you alternately feeling extremely clever and wishing you were just a little more clever. Once the case is over, you realize that if you were just a little bit more observant you would have done even better, but that only makes it more satisfying to see how much you did figure out.

This game is also under 2000 on BGG but that's just inertia. This absolutely kicks the crap out of the original, to the point that I think I am permanently spoiled and could never go back. I liked this game so much I actually started reading the Sherlock Holmes stories for the first time after it was done because I needed that fix.

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters

PerniciousKnid posted:

Watching the SUSD review of Robin Hood got me wondering: is there any good new hotness in Experience Games the last few years?
The new Descent? I'm not sure how you'd classify an Experience game but it's one where you can interact with almost anything in the scenario to get some fluff text, no one person 'owns' the character they're playing, that kind of thing.

Obviously RPG and dungeon crawling mechanics are forefront though.

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Brandfarlig posted:


I'm never sure what to do with animals except for getting horses for points. The advantage of getting them on turn 2 instead of 3/4 is 1 horse, or 6-8 points. Nothing to discount completely but it's easier to grab them on turn 3/4.

It's very likely that I'm damaged by half of my games being 1v1. In a 1v1 you're probably loving up if you can't both raid and whale from turn 3 at the latest. I do find myself in an awkward spot at 3/4 p. Getting 1 island is too little and grabbing 2 takes a few too many tiles which leaves me with a good amount of positive points (170-180) but around 30-40 negative points. I'm absolutely not claiming that my strategy is perfect ( in particular because I lost the last 3p game I was in to a more diverse strategy) but I am saying that if I'm the first player I will always go for whaling because I haven't found a line that gives you a better start.

I really rate the 1 Viking horse/cow to meat and leather action. If you keep the pregnant one and trade in the other one it's something you can do every other turn for tons of value. The meat is then very good with longhouses.

In general I sometimes don't bother with very much, if any, whaling or raiding and go with a house/animals heavy strategy. Get horses turn 2 and maybe pigs after that. Then as many longhouses as you can get.

I don't think I get consistently more points than you're describing but it's definitely possible to do just as well with other strategies. Not saying I've cracked the game at all, I just really don't think the strategies you're describing are completely dominant. It reminds me a bit of the thing people used to say about emigration being the only winning strategy.

Captain Scandinaiva
Mar 29, 2010



Redundant posted:

We also tried to play Viticulture on BGA but after some teething problems and new arrivals we ended up giving up and playing 6 nimmt for a little while instead. Viticulture looks interesting and I hope we get back to it another time. I also floated the idea of Brass: Brum and FCM which people were very interested in so I'll be living the dream of small business ownership soon hopefully.

I've played Viticulture a few times on BGA. I think sadly it's one of the games that isn't very well implemented there, the board is too small and difficult to read. It's a fun game once you've learned it for sure. Though, getting lots of easier wine orders seems to be a sure way of winning fast, rather than spending time and money on getting "higher levels" of grapes and upgrading your cellar. At least, we haven't managed with any other strategy.

Mighty Eris
Mar 24, 2005

Jolly good show, eh old man?

Brandfarlig posted:

Can we talk about Feast for Odin again or am I just years too late?

I have hope for the expansion, mostly to do something about the advantage of going first and how the first turn is basically solved for that player. I'm also not a huge fan of how the first player gets to go first on turn 2 essentially for free by getting to pick cheaper actions.

The fifth column introduced in Norwegians is good but I'd prefer if the first player couldn't easily grab both actions that build a whaling boat. You skip paying for the second boat and grab an island which puts you further ahead. There's other options I might prefer to pick but blocking both boats is strong and annoying for the other players who basically start the game a number of points behind because they made the mistake of not rolling dice good.

I finally got to try it now that it’s in alpha on BGA and whoops I accidentally ordered base + Norwegians don’t know how that happened.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


Jarvisi posted:

https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/star-trek-missions/news/star-trek-missions

I got all excited at the prospect of a star trek game just to read the article and see....that.

Bring back movie/TV screenshots for card games. I miss the old decipher games that used them. Appreciated that the expanse game had them. FFG loved having drawn art and they always looked off from the actors.

Eraflure
Oct 12, 2012


@Odin

I usually play 2P, sometimes 3P-4P, never solo. I'd say I scored ~155 on average in my last 20 games. I don't play without the Norwegians.

- Pigs work very well in longhouses as someone else pointed out earlier. Works well with Isle of Man which usually isn't contested super hard. The herbs from the 5th row market and the hermit hut also work very well with pigs. Slaughtering a pig is also great since they reproduce quickly and stockpiling pigs doesn't do much for you. Pigs are a really nice backup engine that doesn't require a ton of work, but they're the weakest beasts as a "primary" engine.

Also, don't forget you can upgrade pigs! Pretty useful when you need to surround bonus tiles quickly.

- Sheep are really good and easy to use. Grab a pair early on (second or third turn, maybe fourth) and you'll unlock a pretty good 3rd row market action. Buy them early enough and you can afford to let them breed, which means 3 wools instead of 2. Once you have 1 pregnant sheep + 2 "normal" sheep, you can go for the wool action and then upgrade a sheep (or slaughter it) for that delicious extra efficiency. Sheep also make the 4th market action pretty worthwhile if you have strong occupations in your hand, but you probably want some pigs if you're planning on spamming this tile.

- Pig/Sheep hybrid strategy: buy 2 sheep, then 4th market action + 5th market action will net you 2 herbs, enough to get pig breeding going without buying them. Well worth doing that 4V action once without a pig.

- Cows are nice upgrade fodder. Find a way to generate some grain or use the grain from your harvest, buy cows a few times, upgrade them and slam them on your main board, they'll usually be worth more that way.

- Horses get you points I guess. Dull but effective. Don't slaughter them unless you really have to. Upgrading a horse is usually better than slaughtering it imo, unless you're hurting for food.

- Pigs/sheep/cows are almost always worth more upgraded/slaughtered at the end of the game, assuming you can afford those actions.

- Whaling is somewhat overrated in Norwegians and I can consistently win without a fishing boat, but it's still a really nice engine since it offers the best results out of all the hunting/pillaging actions in case of failure. 1 spear + 1 wood + drawing 1 occupation + blocking a contested space for 1 viking is fantastic. If I have a fishing boat lying around, I'll more often than not be quite happy to fail my whaling.

- I don't think being first is that important. I will say however that being the last player in a 4P game blows. If the other players rush boats, you can either secure the 5th column by playing a 4V action or secure contested turn 1 tiles, like the 2V chest crafting, the flax upgrade, the fur... You can also setup a turn 2 animal purchase by stockpiling a bit of gold through market/bottom row, as players who rush islands probably won't consider those until at least turn 3.

- A knarr opening can be good if you know exactly what you're going for. Knarrs cost 1 wood and 2V, longships cost 2 wood and 3V. That's a huge difference in the first turn. A T2 special sale is usually pretty good since you can grab the beads and the helmet for 1 silver. Those two pieces work pretty well together. Knarrs let you go for unorthodox openings that can throw people off since they do a little bit of everything and they will most likely allow you to secure an early island at a relatively low cost.

- I really don't think going for both fishing boats T1 to block other players is a good move, but I'll have to think on this one. Maybe I missed something here.

Eraflure fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Sep 18, 2021

tokenbrownguy
Apr 1, 2010

Thank you FFO for teaching me that it’s okay to not like incredibly good games. Such a tight engine and experience that fills me with no emotion at all. :unsmith:

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Eraflure posted:

@Odin


- Horses get you points I guess. Dull but effective. Don't slaughter them unless you really have to. Upgrading a horse is usually better than slaughtering it imo, unless you're hurting for food.
.

Curious on your reasoning for this, especially contrasted with cows. The horse slaughter action gives you the tile you would have got from the upgrade plus the meat as well. It takes one Viking to slaughter one horse and most upgrade actions allow more than one upgrade per Viking, so I get that it's not clear cut. But I think it's better than slaughtering cows because the green tile you get isn't as good as the cow upgrade one.

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

OrthoTrot posted:

I really rate the 1 Viking horse/cow to meat and leather action. If you keep the pregnant one and trade in the other one it's something you can do every other turn for tons of value. The meat is then very good with longhouses.

In general I sometimes don't bother with very much, if any, whaling or raiding and go with a house/animals heavy strategy. Get horses turn 2 and maybe pigs after that. Then as many longhouses as you can get.

I don't think I get consistently more points than you're describing but it's definitely possible to do just as well with other strategies. Not saying I've cracked the game at all, I just really don't think the strategies you're describing are completely dominant. It reminds me a bit of the thing people used to say about emigration being the only winning strategy.

Slaughtering is a good action thought it's not great for horses due to the squares/points lost.

You're right that I'm a bit single minded when it comes to strategy. I found one way to win and stuck to it. I don't think my line is dominant for the entire game but I don't really feel the need to change my turn 1.

Emigration is far from the only way to get points but it's one of the easiest ways to get ~60 points or more.

Eraflure posted:

@Odin
- I don't think being first is that important. I will say however that being the last player in a 4P game blows. If the other players rush boats, you can either secure the 5th column by playing a 4V action or secure contested turn 1 tiles, like the 2V chest crafting, the flax upgrade, the fur... You can also setup a turn 2 animal purchase by stockpiling a bit of gold through market/bottom row, as players who rush islands probably won't consider those until at least turn 3.

- A knarr opening can be good if you know exactly what you're going for. Knarrs cost 1 wood and 2V, longships cost 2 wood and 3V. That's a huge difference in the first turn. A T2 special sale is usually pretty good since you can grab the beads and the helmet for 1 silver. Those two pieces work pretty well together. Knarrs let you go for unorthodox openings that can throw people off since they do a little bit of everything and they will most likely allow you to secure an early island at a relatively low cost.

- I really don't think going for both fishing boats T1 to block other players is a good move, but I'll have to think on this one. Maybe I missed something here.

I should do more with animals, I just never feel the need to because I get what I want by contesting whaling and raiding.

Being first doesn't decide the game but it does give you the best start consistently. I can't really think of anything you could give the other players to even it out though. Cash is probably too strong unless it's like 1 silver and resources are similarly difficult to balance. That leaves weapon cards and professions I guess? Being last in 3/4p does suck and what sucks more is if you take an intentionally very slow turn so you're not last every round and another player decides to pick like 5 1v actions for no apparent reason. Guess I just took a worse turn for no gain at all!

The difference between the knarr and the longship is mostly the third viking, the second wood isn't that much of a cost since you can't use it for raiding anyway. That's why I tend to just get the longship since it can get me any island and 2v raiding and pillaging are strong. The special sale does seem like a good idea because otherwise I tend to not have much use for a knarr on turn 2 outside of grabbing a better island.

Not rushing islands seems wrong to me. I always grab an island by turn 2 at the latest because I rate the extra income and tiles way higher than getting 30 points at the end of the game from the late game islands. Sure, another players islands may be worth 50-60 points total but my income has been 10 higher than theirs for 3-4 turns. There's your points difference right there. Not grabbing a second island is unusual for me.

I agree that I'd rather pick the 2 different resources + a upgrade with my final viking if I start with whaling but you don't use the fifth column action to build a second boat. You just use it to grab an island.

Isle of Man is one of my favorite islands. 1 upgraded flax and a rune or 1 silver for 2 income and a mead? Yes please. Money is the strongest tile in the game, after all.



tokenbrownguy posted:

Thank you FFO for teaching me that it’s okay to not like incredibly good games. Such a tight engine and experience that fills me with no emotion at all. :unsmith:

Terraforming Mars is one of my favorite games so I know what you mean. FFO is the better balanced game of the 2 obviously but Terra isn't as badly balanced as some would claim.

Out of curiosity, do you not like worker placement in general? I haven't played that many of them but FFO is easily my favorite game in the scope of decently balanced competitive games. I've yet to ascend to playing obscure train based games and 6h+ diplomacy games though.

Brandfarlig fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Sep 18, 2021

Eraflure
Oct 12, 2012


OrthoTrot posted:

Curious on your reasoning for this, especially contrasted with cows. The horse slaughter action gives you the tile you would have got from the upgrade plus the meat as well. It takes one Viking to slaughter one horse and most upgrade actions allow more than one upgrade per Viking, so I get that it's not clear cut. But I think it's better than slaughtering cows because the green tile you get isn't as good as the cow upgrade one.

Yeah it's because you get other upgrades/ressources and I don't transform horses to begin with if I can help it. That means I'll usually take that kind of action at the end of the game, where upgrading is usually better than getting an extra meat if your food engine is doing its job. That being said, slaughtering a horse is also perfectly fine if you're hurting for green tiles and you don't have anything else to upgrade.
If I'm in a position where I want to upgrade my big animals regularly, I'll definitely go for cows instead of horses.

Brandfarlig posted:

The difference between the knarr and the longship is mostly the third viking, the second wood isn't that much of a cost since you can't use it for raiding anyway. That's why I tend to just get the longship since it can get me any island and 2v raiding and pillaging are strong. The special sale does seem like a good idea because otherwise I tend to not have much use for a knarr on turn 2 outside of grabbing a better island.

During turn 1, that wood can also be spent on a 2V crafting action to unlock 2 income on the main board.
1 wood is also enough for a shed. That's a pretty big deal early on, and an early shed + pigs or sheep or even the ore bonus on the main board can be just as good as a barely filled island at the end of T2. It all depends on your occupations and the engines your opponents went for.

Eraflure fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 18, 2021

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Brandfarlig posted:

Slaughtering is a good action thought it's not great for horses due to the squares/points lost.

Am I missing something here. I'm pretty sure you get the exact same good upgrading horses as for slaughtering them, unlike cows.

Eraflure
Oct 12, 2012


I think Brandfarlig means it's better to sit on your unupgraded horses to score points at the end of the game.

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky
What does"square loss" mean in this context?

Eraflure
Oct 12, 2012


Yeah I'm not entirely sure what that means either.

To sum things up, horses are cool because they're passive income that "only" have a big opportunity cost early on and can be more or less ignored until the end of the game. Upgrading or slaughtering them should never be your first course of action and should only be done if you REALLY need those tiles right now. Otherwise, just sit on them, go for the 2V market action and use all that food to fill up a longhouse or two.

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

OrthoTrot posted:

What does"square loss" mean in this context?

It means I was going to type squares lost per points gained but hosed up.

Eraflure posted:

I think Brandfarlig means it's better to sit on your unupgraded horses to score points at the end of the game.

Yup.

Brandfarlig fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Sep 19, 2021

Quote-Unquote
Oct 22, 2002



I'm really excited for Unfathomable. BSG is one of my all-time favourite games so a streamlined version with a theme that my friends that haven't seen the series understands sounds so good.

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Eraflure posted:

Yeah I'm not entirely sure what that means either.

To sum things up, horses are cool because they're passive income that "only" have a big opportunity cost early on and can be more or less ignored until the end of the game. Upgrading or slaughtering them should never be your first course of action and should only be done if you REALLY need those tiles right now. Otherwise, just sit on them, go for the 2V market action and use all that food to fill up a longhouse or two.

Fair enough but I don't think that's the best use of them. It's better to have stuff down on your board to unlock other things and get some kind of engine going. Horses are worth 6 points I think (been a few months since I played!) and they cover 10 spaces. Even just covering -1s without unlocking anything they're worth more on the board.

Provided you keep the pregnant one you can trigger the market action with any number of horses so don't need to stack them up like sheep or cows.

I agree there is an ambiguity to how they are most efficiently turned to a green tile. Slaughtering gives you a meat for free effectively, but upgrading is likely to be more efficient in terms of goods upgraded per Viking. But I'm not sure I see how there is anything lost, points or squares, by making them part of your engine early and getting them on the board to unlock other stuff.

This is all a bit of an aside to the discussion about first player having a solved problem single best move, which I still think is not true either. I'm not sure I would come back to this game if I were of that view.

Cthulhu Dreams
Dec 11, 2010

If I pretend to be Cthulhu no one will know I'm a baseball robot.
BGA is rapidly going to allow you to prove this one way or the other - and with the added advantage of enabling us to estimate the size of the advantage so you could give compensation to the later players.

Brandfarlig
Nov 5, 2009

These colours don't run.

OrthoTrot posted:

Fair enough but I don't think that's the best use of them. It's better to have stuff down on your board to unlock other things and get some kind of engine going. Horses are worth 6 points I think (been a few months since I played!) and they cover 10 spaces. Even just covering -1s without unlocking anything they're worth more on the board.

Provided you keep the pregnant one you can trigger the market action with any number of horses so don't need to stack them up like sheep or cows.

I agree there is an ambiguity to how they are most efficiently turned to a green tile. Slaughtering gives you a meat for free effectively, but upgrading is likely to be more efficient in terms of goods upgraded per Viking. But I'm not sure I see how there is anything lost, points or squares, by making them part of your engine early and getting them on the board to unlock other stuff.

This is all a bit of an aside to the discussion about first player having a solved problem single best move, which I still think is not true either. I'm not sure I would come back to this game if I were of that view.

If you want tiles from large animals you're better of using cows, obviously. Depends on how much you're going to rely on animals for tiles or pure points. I may be ignoring the value of the extra meat but then again I don't go that hard on longhouses. I tend to end with 1, seldom 2.

I don't know about solved but as of yet I haven't heard an opening that sounds more efficient. Good amount of tiles, optional island and you're monopolizing one of the strongest actions? I'm looking for a reason to not always do it (except fun) and I'm coming up short. It's not like you're only doing whaling turn 2 and onwards and you're likely to have the money for animals on turn 2 anyway. The game gets more fluid from turn 2 but turn 1 tends to be resources > boat to open up alternatives.

Rusty Kettle
Apr 10, 2005
Ultima! Ahmmm-bing!

Quote-Unquote posted:

I'm really excited for Unfathomable. BSG is one of my all-time favourite games so a streamlined version with a theme that my friends that haven't seen the series understands sounds so good.

Lots of people dumped on it for being another Cthulhu themed game, but I actually like its theme more than BSG for this reason. It doesn't require someone to have knowledge of a series that's almost 20years old at this point.

Secretly being a fish on a big boat is a much more unique then secretly being a robot. They could have in theory put it in the Android universe and made people secret robots, but I would argue that is very boring. Sitting around the table pointing fingers at potential fish-people is much more interesting than acting out Blade-Runner.

Rockman Reserve
Oct 2, 2007

"Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

as someone with almost the entire run of arkham horror LCG and most of the board games other than mansions of madness, with a group that plays arkham enough to justify that poo poo, I’m happy for the retheme but wish it was literally anything else at all with Android at the very absolute top of the list

E: and people secretly being androids or g-mods or whatever in Android would be boring, but being secret double agent runners and Corp spies would be amazing

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
Finally got Tulip Bubble to the table. Lovely game. I have so little experience with auction games, and have absolutely no idea how to be good at this, lol. Between the random market events, and losing track of how much I spent to buy tulips in previous rounds I did terribly.

Also, is $120 USD a rip-off for Pamir 2E (with metal coins)?

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nonathlon
Jul 9, 2004
And yet, somehow, now it's my fault ...

Quote-Unquote posted:

I'm really excited for Unfathomable. BSG is one of my all-time favourite games so a streamlined version with a theme that my friends that haven't seen the series understands sounds so good.

Sounds interesting. I was lit for Dark Moon, which started life as BSG Express, and thought it had some good ideas but it was so not a streamlined express experience.

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