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My father believes everything in the Bible absolutely 100% happened literally. It’s about as exhausting as you’d expect.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:02
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That's just Augustine making excuses for God like usual. That dude was so diety whipped.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:15
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RCarr posted:My father believes everything in the Bible absolutely 100% happened literally. It’s about as exhausting as you’d expect. So how do people like him explain the two contradictory creation stories and all the inconsistencies in the gospels? And why isn't he out killing people for wearing clothes made from more than one type of fibre?
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Sep 17, 2021 15:22
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At the end of The Card Counter, why would Oscar Isaac go back to military prison? He wasn’t in the military anymore. It doesn’t make sense. Also, I just didn’t like the movie much. I don’t know why it’s getting such good reviews. I think this is one of those “it’s good because it’s timely” things.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:46
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Megillah Gorilla posted:So how do people like him explain the two contradictory creation stories and all the inconsistencies in the gospels? Good question! I don’t know enough (or much of anything) about the Bible to question him on stuff like this, but I’m sure he has some convenient excuse.
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Sep 17, 2021 16:07
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RCarr posted:My father believes everything in the Bible absolutely 100% happened literally. It’s about as exhausting as you’d expect. Is your mom allowed to sit on a couch when she's on her period? I remember when I first started questioning the bible as a kid. I had some sort of Noah's Ark toy/playset and realized how many loving animals were missing. Called some bullshit.
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Sep 17, 2021 16:52
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RCarr posted:My father believes everything in the Bible absolutely 100% happened literally. It’s about as exhausting as you’d expect. No one really believes everything in the bible absolutely. Like Megillah Gorilla points out it's just too contradictory, they just believe the parts that justifies their opinions.
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Sep 17, 2021 16:58
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Alhazred posted:No one really believes everything in the bible absolutely. Like Megillah Gorilla points out it's just too contradictory, they just believe the parts that justifies their opinions. Yeah I’m sure if I knew enough about it to call him out on stuff he would have some excuse as to the stuff that didn’t agree with his views. But I’ve asked him and he 100% believes Noah’s Ark and poo poo really happened and if you ask him about the logistics of bringing 2 of every animal and taking care of them etc he basically reverts to “God is magic”.
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Sep 17, 2021 17:07
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Again: Sola Scriptura was a mistake. When the Church Fathers read the OT, they believed the Flood and Exodus really happened, but they focused less on reconciling details and more on how they might have foreshadowed Jesus or give some kind of spiritual lesson. Then you have Judaism, where ancient Midrash includes dozens on dozens of different literal and allegorical takes on just the first verse of Genesis. Heck, in both religions, just about every instance of a number is taken to have some kind of deeper meaning. For Scriptures to be the Word of God meant just as much that every word was there for a reason as it might that they describe something that actually happened. Whereas literalist fundamentalist Protestantism, untethered from a wider interpretive tradition, is a very modern phenomenon.
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Sep 17, 2021 18:07
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Alhazred posted:No one really believes everything in the bible absolutely. Like Megillah Gorilla points out it's just too contradictory, they just believe the parts that justifies their opinions. I have been occasionally fascinated by the historians who have pointed out how things in the Bible could match known history at least. If you go with Ramses the Great as the pharaoh Moses liberated the Israelites from (Ramses does apparently commemorate a victory over the Israelites on a monument, so they were around by then), then Joseph would have brought them into Egypt originally when the Hyskos were in Egypt. Serving people apparently painted as “foreign conquerors” by later dynasties would certainly explain why they went from advising the pharaoh to slaves by the time of Moses. Also got kind of a laugh about the suggestion I heard for the “Nile ran red with blood” thing; when the Nile does its yearly flood it drags a bunch of red mud with it, so it routinely “runs red”. Accurately stating when that happens is a neat trick admittedly, but it makes sense the Egyptians might dismiss it as “lucky guess”.
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Sep 17, 2021 18:47
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Biblical archaeology can never be scientific because it starts with a hidebound conclusion first and tries to work the evidence into supporting a priori beliefs, i.e. the exact antithesis of the actual scientific method. In that sense it doesn't matter how many elements line up with known history.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:09
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Keromaru5 posted:According to Augustine, by saying "I will harden his heart," he's really saying, "I shall show how hard his heart is.".
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Sep 17, 2021 19:31
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That's like saying Egyptology isn't a real field of study because king tut's face wasn't actually made of gold Biblical archaeology isn't about proving everything in the book is true, it's about finding out what inspired the parts in the book
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Sep 17, 2021 19:31
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A key component of the scientific method is the initial hypothesis. If your hypothesis is "The Bible says x happened, so if I look here, I might find evidence that x happened," then you go dig around near, say, Jerusalem, you can either then say "I found evidence of x" or "I did not find evidence of x." What's unscientific about that?The Mighty Moltres posted:Augustine wasn't present during the meeting between Moses and the Pharoah, nor was he even born yet. For a few thousand years.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:39
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NVM, it's the IIMM thread.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:43
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Keromaru5 posted:Again: Sola Scriptura was a mistake. When the Church Fathers read the OT, they believed the Flood and Exodus really happened, but they focused less on reconciling details and more on how they might have foreshadowed Jesus or give some kind of spiritual lesson. Then you have Judaism, where ancient Midrash includes dozens on dozens of different literal and allegorical takes on just the first verse of Genesis. Heck, in both religions, just about every instance of a number is taken to have some kind of deeper meaning. For Scriptures to be the Word of God meant just as much that every word was there for a reason as it might that they describe something that actually happened. Whereas literalist fundamentalist Protestantism, untethered from a wider interpretive tradition, is a very modern phenomenon. The flood is interesting in particular because that story isn't exclusive to the Bible. IIRC it comes up in Mesopotamian stories (Abraham came from a Sumerian city-state so it may have passed down to Genesis that way). You could say that the Bible rips it off, but I think that's a bit uncharitable since if you look around pretty much every culture has some sort of "great flood" myth somewhere. You'd have to ask a geologist, but I don't think there's evidence of a worldwide flood although I would assume these stories all have some basis in a kind of major regional deluge.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:51
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MadDogMike posted:I have been occasionally fascinated by the historians who have pointed out how things in the Bible could match known history at least. If you go with Ramses the Great as the pharaoh Moses liberated the Israelites from (Ramses does apparently commemorate a victory over the Israelites on a monument, so they were around by then), then Joseph would have brought them into Egypt originally when the Hyskos were in Egypt. Serving people apparently painted as “foreign conquerors” by later dynasties would certainly explain why they went from advising the pharaoh to slaves by the time of Moses. Also got kind of a laugh about the suggestion I heard for the “Nile ran red with blood” thing; when the Nile does its yearly flood it drags a bunch of red mud with it, so it routinely “runs red”. Accurately stating when that happens is a neat trick admittedly, but it makes sense the Egyptians might dismiss it as “lucky guess”. It was actually Pharaoh Merneptah  The inscription reads:The princes are prostrate, saying, "Peace!" Not one is raising his head among the Nine Bows. Now that Tehenu (Libya) has come to ruin, Hatti is pacified; The Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe: Ashkelon has been overcome; Gezer has been captured; Yano'am is made non-existent. Israel is laid waste and his seed is not; Hurru is become a widow because of Egypt. The big problem with exodus, Joseph and Moses is that there's a lot of "maybe" and "could've been". There could've been a vizier named Joseph in Egypt but no sources except the bible mentions him. There' could've been jews among the slaves in Egypt. Even though no egyptian sources mentions a mass exodus, maybe a small group of slaves escaped. Maybe some guy named Moses was among them. Maybe it was an extremely unlucky year for Egypt where there was just one crisis after another, even though there's no evidence for it and the mass death of all the first born would surely be a pretty noticeable event.
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Sep 17, 2021 19:51
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BiggerBoat posted:Is your mom allowed to sit on a couch when she's on her period? Good username synergy.
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Sep 17, 2021 20:17
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christmas boots posted:The flood is interesting in particular because that story isn't exclusive to the Bible. IIRC it comes up in Mesopotamian stories (Abraham came from a Sumerian city-state so it may have passed down to Genesis that way). You could say that the Bible rips it off, but I think that's a bit uncharitable since if you look around pretty much every culture has some sort of "great flood" myth somewhere. We absolutely have evidence for worldwide floods, during the Messinian Salinity Crisis the whole world saw sea level raises of about 12m. The Mediterranean dried up due to a lack of Atlantic inflow, potentially due to a "deblobbing" event, where a subducting plate loses a large chunk of itself down into the mantle, so the upper section of the plate bounces back now that nothing is dragging it down. This is theorised to have happened slightly west of the modern day Strait of Gibraltar, blocking that whole section, causing solar evaporation to dry up the whole Mediterranean over the space of several hundred thousand years. That was around 5.5 million years ago, and the evidence is very clear from seafloor samples from the Mediterranean and shoreline samples from all around the Atlantic and Pacific. So science absolutely knows that there was a massive flood, 5 million years ago. We've seen smaller flooding events at the end of the last ice age (11,700 years ago, localised events like the Bonneville and Black Sea deluge, various ice-dam release floods) but for the most part we came out of that ice age gradually, as opposed to catastrophically. Between the glacial maximum around 26k-19k years ago, and the final decline of the West Antarctic ice sheet around 14.5k years ago, there's a lot of time there for things to gradually get warmer and wetter. So we know what the evidence of these massive, worldwide flooding events looks like, and there aren't any in any sort of human timescale.
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Sep 17, 2021 23:30
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Memento posted:We absolutely have evidence for worldwide floods, during the Messinian Salinity Crisis the whole world saw sea level raises of about 12m. The Mediterranean dried up due to a lack of Atlantic inflow, potentially due to a "deblobbing" event, where a subducting plate loses a large chunk of itself down into the mantle, so the upper section of the plate bounces back now that nothing is dragging it down. This is theorised to have happened slightly west of the modern day Strait of Gibraltar, blocking that whole section, causing solar evaporation to dry up the whole Mediterranean over the space of several hundred thousand years. Apologies for the confusion, I meant during the human timescale.
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Sep 17, 2021 23:35
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My Christian Fundamentalist friend is really into science and physics. The part of that he thinks we don't understand correctly is dating science, like carbon dating or nuclear decay etc. Basically the bits that easily contradict the Bible. You saying we have hard evidence of global floods would justify his beliefs, as your dating evidence is broken.
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Sep 17, 2021 23:41
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christmas boots posted:The flood is interesting in particular because that story isn't exclusive to the Bible. IIRC it comes up in Mesopotamian stories (Abraham came from a Sumerian city-state so it may have passed down to Genesis that way). You could say that the Bible rips it off, but I think that's a bit uncharitable since if you look around pretty much every culture has some sort of "great flood" myth somewhere. how bizarre
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Sep 17, 2021 23:59
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cowboy
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christmas boots posted:Apologies for the confusion, I meant during the human timescale. That's my point. There is abundant evidence of this happening, we know what it looks like, so we strictly know that there hasn't been one in human timescales.
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Sep 18, 2021 00:03
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FFT posted:Yeah pretty much every culture that developed in an area that floods has a great flood myth Almost as weird as every creation myth identifying humans as somehow special compared to other animals.
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Sep 18, 2021 00:22
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FFT posted:Yeah pretty much every culture that developed in an area that floods has a great flood myth A little bit, if you're willing to admit that a remarkably similar story plays out in Semitic, Sumerian, Greek and Egyptian myth amongst others. All of them cultures that share a similar origin. So yeah, all cultures that developed around rivers and seas. But also cultures that share a (potentially oral and pre-literate) origin, which is fascinating. So what if it was some minor flooding of a river delta, that poo poo still tells us a lot about human history in general.
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Sep 18, 2021 00:42
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Just finished up Malignant, and holy gently caress. My main IIMM is just the sheer amount of bad acting in that movie though. Neat story, decent pace, but gently caress if there's not like 4 scenes where you wonder if it's trying to be a parody of horror movies. If you aren't an actor of the Jeremy irons level, you don't get to chew scenery like him. You gotta earn that.
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Sep 18, 2021 03:13
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Just finished up Malignant, and holy gently caress. My main IIMM is just the sheer amount of bad acting in that movie though. Neat story, decent pace, but gently caress if there's not like 4 scenes where you wonder if it's trying to be a parody of horror movies. If you aren't an actor of the Jeremy irons level, you don't get to chew scenery like him. You gotta earn that. We just watched this as well. The general premise and reveal are great and I LOVE teratoma takeover horror as a genre but I agree that the acting was really ridiculous. In the “intro”, specifically, my wife and I were wondering if it was an intentional stylistic choice or what? It felt very awkward. I think the teratoma Gabriel manifesting by making her use her body backwards and the underground Seattle set pieces are the best part of the movie.
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Sep 18, 2021 03:21
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Yeah, I was convinced that the first part of the movie was a cheesy movie within a movie like Watchmen or something but no, it was just a flashback. The insanity of the last part of the movie definitely makes it worth a watch. I need to see a behind the scenes for it.
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Sep 18, 2021 03:35
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Prince of Egypt and general curse question: the death of the firstborn should have killed the Pharaoh/Moses' brother because, I mean, he was the firstborn, right?
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Sep 18, 2021 04:51
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Cowslips Warren posted:Prince of Egypt and general curse question: the death of the firstborn should have killed the Pharaoh/Moses' brother because, I mean, he was the firstborn, right? I think it only hit firstborn sons that were still children because Old Testament God was hardcore like that.
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Sep 18, 2021 06:33
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it hit firstborn livestock too equal opportunity fuckery
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Sep 18, 2021 08:12
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Exodus 11:4-6 Moses said, “Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go out through Egypt. Every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne to the firstborn of the female slave who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the livestock. Then there will be a loud cry throughout the whole land of Egypt, such as has never been or will ever be again. In The Prince of Egypt they have Pharoah say that last bit as a threat to Moses which is neat. I like that movie. e: here's the Dore engraving of the tenth plague. Look at that angel, no fucks given. 
HopperUK has a new favorite as of 12:01 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 11:52
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HopperUK posted:
drat, that's cold
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Sep 18, 2021 12:14
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Keromaru5 posted:A key component of the scientific method is the initial hypothesis. If your hypothesis is "The Bible says x happened, so if I look here, I might find evidence that x happened," then you go dig around near, say, Jerusalem, you can either then say "I found evidence of x" or "I did not find evidence of x." What's unscientific about that? Science: "The evidence doesn't seem to support my hypothesis. Therefore I must formulate a different hypothesis which the evidence does support." Evidence determines explanation. Not science: "The evidence doesn't support my hypothesis, therefore I must discard the contradictory evidence and keep looking for more evidence that does confirm my hypothesis." Explanation determines evidence.
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Sep 18, 2021 13:30
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Rewatching The Plagues in 2020 was enough to make a man penitent.
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Sep 18, 2021 17:47
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nothing personnel, kid
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Sep 18, 2021 19:59
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Tagichatn posted:Yeah, I was convinced that the first part of the movie was a cheesy movie within a movie like Watchmen or something but no, it was just a flashback. Same here - it really felt like a cheap TV show at that point. And the obviously 15-year-old actor playing a girl supposedly less than 8 years old was not a good choice. I hope they screen-tested some age-appropriate actors and they were poo poo, rather than choosing her straight up.
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Sep 18, 2021 23:04
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Malignant sucks cuz it just made me want to watch actual good and funny exploitation schlock like Street Trash or Blacula or Chopping Mall instead of some sleek actual-budget homage that just has none of the acting being awkward because the actors are actually goofy and bad instead of putting on an affectation or trying so deliberately to mimic poo poo that was often to very low amounts of possible takes due to budget and time concerns and endearing amateurism resulting from that. It's one of those genres that works best with extreme limitations or people just getting ridiculously weird and experimental with it like Mandy.
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Sep 18, 2021 23:14
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HopperUK posted:e: here's the Dore engraving of the tenth plague. Look at that angel, no fucks given.
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Sep 18, 2021 23:34
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christmas boots posted:Almost as weird as every creation myth identifying humans as somehow special compared to other animals. I'm a human, and my mum says I'm special. Therefore God is real and Jesus is my friend. Checkmate Athetits.
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Sep 18, 2021 23:36
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