(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i don't take issue with the rest of your post, which was interesting, but i don't find this hard to believe i think the dengists were always pretty clear about what they were about. there's probably a mix of reasons why the west didn't care: - they didn't believe them and thought they were bluffing to maintain political legitimacy - there was money to be made by capital by going to a place with lower wages, and power to be gained by using that to crush labor at home, who cares what the chinese say its about the rate of return baby - they believed they could use a liberalized economy to bring chinese capitalists to see DC as something that would back them against their own country and get them political power, cf latin american oligarchs, eventually leading to a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, breaking the CPC hold on power and bringing china fully into the washington consensus
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Sep 21, 2021 00:46
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indigi posted:I... Its possible Deng stumbled into a good track by accident. I am not sure myself. Personally I like the theory that the Chinese people are just super hard working. but I don't think anyone in the CCP central committee has the ball to do major course correction of what Deng had set in the 90s. After all, Deng's reform has delivered fastest growth (amount other matrix) in 4 continuous decades. For this reason, I think Deng was a greater man than Mao and Sun.
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Sep 21, 2021 00:47
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stephenthinkpad posted:One thing related to the topics in this page I just want to point out. One giant argument in favor of capitalism which Soviet never answered and IMO Deng era CCP didn't figured out is the greed motivate hard work argument. I've never really understood this argument. as far back as ancient Greece/Rome (and I'm sure China/India/Mesopotamia knew this as well) we've known money isn't the only motivator. hell, he was a capitalist, but even Napoleon figured out cash isn't the only incentive - fame/renown is at least as powerful of a motivator, and the greedy can just as easily sate their covetousness with Legion of Honor crosses or a Triumph as they can money. if they do enough, give them a bust in a local hall of honor. maybe X crosses can be redeemed for a special prefix before your name. people will do crazy poo poo to have "Sir" or whatever in front of their name in an MMO, imagine what they'd do to be known as "Grand Moff" IRL (in real life)
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Sep 21, 2021 00:47
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mila kunis posted:i think the dengists were always pretty clear about what they were about. there's probably a mix of reasons why the west didn't care: I think it's a lot simpler than that: american white supremacy thinks them to be a savage subspecies, hardly worthy of the respect begrudgingly granted to great white soviet adversary e: just look at how incredulous even this nominally communist subform is at the possibility that the chinese might understand marxism better than white people
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Sep 21, 2021 00:51
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stephenthinkpad posted:For this reason, I think Deng was a greater man than Mao I breathe heavily, heartbeats racing, extremely triggered by your post
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Sep 21, 2021 00:52
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interesting point to link the SOEs bringing up standards at private companies within china because of competition to communist countries in the mid-20th century benefitting workers in the first world
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Sep 21, 2021 00:53
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dead gay comedy forums posted:I breathe heavily, heartbeats racing, extremely triggered by your post lol
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Sep 21, 2021 00:53
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Some Guy TT posted:oh question for ardennes what movies are the russians watching lately did their whole market crash or just the one for hollywood movies There was a hit to the box-office but seems to be still the same mix of domestic and Hollywood features with possibly with the ratio going more domestic. Malls seems to be fairly busy. The real controversy is exactly what is going on with COVID in Russia. I get the feeling that honestly it was really just herd immunity. It is really the only way to explain it considering you have masses of people without masks on the Moscow metro even with delta. I don't get any real fear here and vaccination is still fairly low. I think almost everyone got COVID at some point. The question how it happened it a bit more unclear. Government cover-up or just the population itself was able to "tank it"?
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Sep 21, 2021 00:53
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Centrist Committee posted:I think it's a lot simpler than that: american white supremacy thinks them to be a savage subspecies, hardly worthy of the respect begrudgingly granted to great white soviet adversary im sure they're pretty racist but i think this was a case of two fundamentally adversarial institutions going into partnership with each other with eyes fully open, hoping to screw each other in the end. so far it looks like the dengists aren't the ones that got got
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Sep 21, 2021 00:54
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mila kunis posted:i think the dengists were always pretty clear about what they were about. there's probably a mix of reasons why the west didn't care: #2 is far and away the most important imo
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Sep 21, 2021 00:54
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i say swears online posted:#2 is far and away the most important imo that's the danger of rhetorically anthropomorphizing capital imo, or at least ascribing human motivations to it, anyway
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Sep 21, 2021 00:56
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hot witch divorcee posted:no? there are cliques and purges but like. actually read the poo poo deng said. he was a communist through and through; communism isn't exclusively (or even very good) when it's hard left communism like the cultural revolution was. ultra-leftism is kind of a disaster, and lacks the ability to organize productive forces or adjust to material reality. its mcu-tier "communism" that leads to poo poo like demanding people follow "the two whatevers", string up dogs and boil babies, or establish killing fields. That is, "Dengists" in the CPC purging communists and pursuing naked self-interest / counter-revolutionary actions, need not actually include Deng himself. Deng may have been totally pure of motive but Dengism itself opened an opportunity for liberalization that, it would seem, China avoided. But I would call that "luck" rather than a careful (and near-perfectly) enacted plan conceived in the late 70s and followed to the letter ever since. You say he didn't luck out, yet you seem to admit that "china in the 90s was a bit yikes sweaty." That "if the cpc had continued from there to be run by hardline dengists who treat deng's words as gospel, there would have been Problems." I'm having trouble reconciling this.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:02
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deng and the cpc knew what they were doing, #2 was absolutely and intentionally the carrot on the stick to get the foreign investment (and for western forces to finally stop loving with them as much) they needed to develop productive forces
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Sep 21, 2021 01:03
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:You say he didn't luck out, yet you seem to admit that "china in the 90s was a bit yikes sweaty." That "if the cpc had continued from there to be run by hardline dengists who treat deng's words as gospel, there would have been Problems." I'm having trouble reconciling this. i think it was a good plan. i don't think hardline dengists running china forever was ever a real serious threat; deng era was very big on public self-crit and adjusting to what needed to be done. deng expected to be treated like he treated mao, with respect but also with plenty of criticism. they were smart about what they privatized and did not let anything that threatened sovereignty become privatized. i don't think it was foregone, and it was a risky move, but i believe they laid out the plan and made changing course enough of a norm that fossilizing into right-communism forever was a real but never serious threat.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:07
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i say swears online posted:#2 is far and away the most important imo But trade only opened up as long as China didn't make itself a threat and for the most part they didn't. Simply, the Western interpreted (incorrectly) that once China had started to pack American foreign policy and allowed itself to become a mixed-market economy, the battle was over. It is also a sequence of events that a lot of Western Marxists get confused about. That said, the commitment by the CPC to "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" was quite real in fact and the number of billionaires in China didn't actually change the situation. If anything right now, the party seems to be going make to demand a portion of that wealth be returned to the coffers of the state. It is simply a different system than a traditional Western economy even a "scandavian system".
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Sep 21, 2021 01:08
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OhFunny posted:The French are still super mad. France needs to collapse the tunnel.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:08
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OhFunny posted:The French are still super mad. Why don't they just explain to the French that there are several types of Muslims for them to hate on in China?
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Sep 21, 2021 01:09
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Mr Hootington posted:France needs to collapse the tunnel. Collapsing NATO would be a solid consolation tho
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Sep 21, 2021 01:11
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Antonymous posted:I specifically said that china's billionaires are not what makes china a bourgeois state. I think it the same token you cannot argue that Xi bringing back SOEs, or SOE's existence, as a point toward china not being capitalist. Typically about 37% of GDP in the USA is government spending, in 2020, 47% of the USA's GDP was government spending. Half our economy was government rather than market or capitalist enterprise - it doesn't mean poo poo about social organization. You're making a mistake by conflating government spending with the operation of SOEs. Like, the US still has a massive amount of public spending for sure, but those are all being doled out to private contractors. It's not the same thing as an actual state enterprise performing the same function. Public-private partnerships introduce all sorts of inefficiencies into the system by introducing profit seeking to what should be a cost effective public good. Also, the Soviet economy got brought up a lot ITT, but what gets overlooked is that the Soviets still had an extensive market period and depended on foreign investment & engineering just to get the economy off the ground. After all the Red Scares, this was a possibility foreclosed to all other socialist states - so for China to go through the same process of rapid development through involvement in the global market meant a much more significant negotiation with international finance & foreign bourgeois. Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 01:19 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 01:15
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how the gently caress do I replace the grenade with the hammer and sickle btw
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Sep 21, 2021 01:17
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You're making a mistake by conflating government spending with the operation of SOEs. Like, the US still has a massive amount of public spending for sure, but those are all being doled out to private contractors. It's not the same thing as an actual state enterprise performing the same function. Public-private partnerships introduce all sorts of inefficiencies into the system by introducing profit seeking to what should be a cost effective public good. also isn't a lot of that public spending just money people paid into the government being returned to them (unemployment, disability, social security, etc.)? I'm not sure that counts as "government spending" in the way we usually talk about it
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Sep 21, 2021 01:19
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indigi posted:lol Mao Tse-Tung, the Great Helmsman: - Provides great advances into historical materialism by building from Lenin and demonstrating how important are the different contexts that each society face in their history, geography and culture for the purposes of revolutionary socialism - shows how this revolutionary socialism can be a fundamental principle towards nation building and imperial resistance, the party demonstrating in practice as they fight a civil war and carry social transformation efforts (through education for example) simultaneously - the incipient red army of china gets extremely owned and the CPC is nearly destroyed, Mao proposes and leads one of the most dramatic and spectacular strategic maneuvers in history, the Great March - the party is reorganized, restructured and prepared to rebuild a chinese red army to fight the Japanese threat - another of Mao's contribution to theory, the People's War, prove to be far more effective and capable to fight both Japanese and Nationalist forces, while also building massive countryside support for the communists - civil war is won, the CPC declares the People's Republic, a radical economic transformation happens based, among other things, on the never considered possibility of rural industrialization that builds an unique economic base for further advancements Deng Xiaoping: - weeeeeeeeeellllllll sure some of that is okay and all but have you considered number go up
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Sep 21, 2021 01:20
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:how the gently caress do I replace the grenade with the hammer and sickle btw I think you have to ask an admin
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Sep 21, 2021 01:21
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Yeah, "government spending" is a very different thing than public ownership of the economy. If anything, the US federal budget is a subsidy system for private enterprise that is funded by average tax payers and printing. It is a big reason why the US is panicking about the Chinese navy because China can produce ships far more efficiently than the US budgetary system can allow.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:21
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mila kunis posted:i think the dengists were always pretty clear about what they were about. there's probably a mix of reasons why the west didn't care: Also the west wasn't using a scientific (Marxist) analysis of politics whereas the Chinese are. American capitalism has no real ideological rooting and what little is there is complete voodoo compared to the science of Marxism.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:22
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Centrist Committee posted:Collapsing NATO would be a solid consolation tho They need to do both. Stop all trade to England and turn off electricity too.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:28
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Ardennes posted:It is a big reason why the US is panicking about the Chinese navy because China can produce ships far more efficiently than the US budgetary system can allow. why is that?
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Sep 21, 2021 01:28
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Deng Xiaoping: He figured out how to beat the United States. indigi posted:why is that? State owned companies following a direct mandate from Beijing versus the American lobbyist system is simply more efficient. Also, the differences of purchasing price parity, costs are simply much lower in China. The USS Ford started construction in 2009, was commissioned in 2017, has cost unknowable billions of dollars and is still nowhere ready for service. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 01:41 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 01:36
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indigi posted:why is that? A lot of chinas (maybe all of them?) defense manufacturing conglomerates are state owned.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:41
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:how the gently caress do I replace the grenade with the hammer and sickle btw you have to ask an admin, it's a CSS replacement for your poster ID. indigi posted:why is that? the US military has become so incredibly filled with graft that it is almost completely nonfunctional. An actual challenge to them on the level of the soviets wouldn't be able to be met nowadays
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Sep 21, 2021 01:43
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Ardennes posted:He figured out how to beat the United States. ardennes, you humorless expired sour cream dolt, let me joke while I remain extremely triggered
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Sep 21, 2021 01:46
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dead gay comedy forums posted:ardennes, you humorless expired sour cream dolt, let me joke while I remain extremely triggered You need some distance to make sarcasm work, there is a high signal-to-noise ratio in any China thread. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 01:55 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 01:53
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Ardennes posted:You need some distance to make sarcasm work. never, as I repeat what you said sounding like a five year old and also making fart noises
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Sep 21, 2021 01:55
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:the post I replied to framed it such that the CPC documented their actually-we're-still-communist plans and published it for all to see, and the only reason the CIA didn't pick up on it is that they were too lazy to translate it to english This is absolutely the case, listen the 5 minutes I link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXB-kGREtYs&t=1347s
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Sep 21, 2021 02:14
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indigi posted:why is that? im reading this book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/678752/the-spoils-of-war-by-andrew-cockburn/ that just came out. series of essays/articles from last 6 years or so that explains how public-private funding in the miltech sector has so thoroughly incentivized failure that it eventually began affecting military outcomes throughout the Cold War, getting exponentially worse after the End of History in the 90s. contracts go to a handful of highly influential (and heavily centralized over decades of acquisitions) private designers, these contractors make more money the longer the project lasts and the less efficient the eventual product is (bc then you just get a new contract to build a better product), and eventually you have to actually field these technological monstrosities bc we are in a hundred wars and they barely function and result in massive civilian casualties and self inflicted deaths of American troops. I kinda knew the gist of this problem from osmosis but there's some pretty illuminating examples of how throughly rotten the entire process is, and every year it gets worse and every year there's bipartisan approval to spend even more on the military so the cycle continues unabated. another material casualty of our perpetually rising big beautiful Economy.
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Sep 21, 2021 02:54
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Mr Hootington posted:Blackrock and HSBC are both bagholders. HSBC might be in trouble too. The west is very exposed. 
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Sep 21, 2021 05:16
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hot witch divorcee posted:no? there are cliques and purges but like. actually read the poo poo deng said. he was a communist through and through; communism isn't exclusively (or even very good) when it's hard left communism like the cultural revolution was. ultra-leftism is kind of a disaster, and lacks the ability to organize productive forces or adjust to material reality. its mcu-tier "communism" that leads to poo poo like demanding people follow "the two whatevers", string up dogs and boil babies, or establish killing fields. I'm almost done with reading a biography on Deng and not only did he consider himself to be a communist through-and-through, he himself was struggling against the liberals and the roaders that wanted China to open up even more than he already did it's unfortunate that Deng is routinely portrayed as this rightist or capitalist in sheep's clothing by a surface-level perception of the relationship as juxtaposed against Maoism, and I'm beginning to understand why R Guy had such an allergic reaction to the use of the term "Dengism" as though it was an entirely separate school of thought that's worthy of distinction. At worst, Deng was the moderate, the pragmatist who got things done.
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Sep 21, 2021 05:33
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free r guyovich
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Sep 21, 2021 05:34
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/xi-moving-china-economic-system-171146880.htmlquote:For a long time, analysts chalked Chinese President Xi Jinping's homages to Mao Zedong to "political stagecraft," but a Wall Street Journal examination of Xi's recent writings and speeches suggests they should be taking him much more seriously. It now appears Xi is "forcefully" trying to get China back to Mao's socialist vision, the Journal writes. 
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Sep 21, 2021 05:42
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OhFunny posted:The French are still super mad. They've threatened betrayal since the founding of their republic, they are not authentic.
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Sep 21, 2021 05:44
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