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You might want to first want to tell HR: "either you give me 100% or you can do the rest of the discussion through my lawyer". They might think it's not worth the hassle and just pay you the 15k, which saves you the cost of a lawyer. You're getting fired either way, I'd make their life as miserable as possible over it, especially if the reward is 15k. It certainly feels discriminatory to birth givers, but it really depends on Aussie law if they can actually do this or not.
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Sep 22, 2021 13:11
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You should talk to a lawyer before you issue any ultimatums, or indeed before you have any further discussions with anyone within the company at all.
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Sep 22, 2021 13:24
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Jumpsuit posted:It's not related to mat leave or me personally (which would probably make it easier to argue), it's a business wide restructure. Over 200 roles are being removed. University, if that helps. LochNessMonster posted:You might want to first want to tell HR: "either you give me 100% or you can do the rest of the discussion through my lawyer". They might think it's not worth the hassle and just pay you the 15k, which saves you the cost of a lawyer. I'd probably throw in a mention of the labor board, but I'm also sometimes overly hostile is situations like that. Email yourself documentation of agreement from HR to increase hours and the later refusal.
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Sep 22, 2021 13:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:You should talk to a lawyer before you issue any ultimatums, or indeed before you have any further discussions with anyone within the company at all.
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Sep 22, 2021 13:41
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Lmao, did not see the "mat leave". I haven't seen maternity leave called that before although in my circles we do use the term "pat leave" Yeah as suggested, reach out to your union rep, then find yourself a lawyer. Stop talking to these people on the phone, get an email and make sure you get 100% of everything in writing, and CC your lawyer going forward. Your lawyer will probably advise you to stop talking with them directly, which is probably a good idea. I'm not a lawyer though, so, good luck, but seems like there's a non-zero chance you'll get to claw back at least part of that $15k
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Sep 22, 2021 13:47
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evobatman posted:Thanks to this thread I just scored a 54% raise switching jobs.  congrats
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Sep 22, 2021 14:37
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leper khan posted:Email yourself documentation of agreement from HR to increase hours and the later refusal. This. Not sure about Ausssie laws, but companies tend to delete emails in their system at the first sign of trouble, and it means disappearing from your own company inbox. Only subpoenas tend to stop this behavior. They can't reach into your personal email so forward anything pertinent to yourself. Mentioning a lawyer/confronting can trigger the wipeout, and it's nice to have a papertrail of the timeline and events you described. IANAAL/B, of course.
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Sep 22, 2021 20:18
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BonHair posted:My feeling is that anything they would consider a threat would get you a very nice place in the list of people to get rid of soon, so be careful if you can't afford it. I have a job interview which should be a lock today. Start date should be in a couple weeks. No matter what happens I will be finishing out this training and then leaving for the new job, assuming I get it, which I should. They have hosed around and now they will find out. In the meantime, I still haven't been paid so I guess I have to call my state's dept of labor at this point because I can't get anyone in the company to respond to any email or inquiry about my pay no matter who I send it to or what I say.
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Sep 22, 2021 20:34
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empty whippet box posted:I have a job interview which should be a lock today. Start date should be in a couple weeks. No matter what happens I will be finishing out this training and then leaving for the new job, assuming I get it, which I should. They have hosed around and now they will find out. In the meantime, I still haven't been paid so I guess I have to call my state's dept of labor at this point because I can't get anyone in the company to respond to any email or inquiry about my pay no matter who I send it to or what I say. Is this a new job? I ask since you say youre in training right now. If its new is this your first check and if so are you sure you have the pay schedule right? It may be as simple as youre not due to be paid until the next cycle.
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Sep 22, 2021 21:39
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gbut posted:This. Not sure about Ausssie laws, but companies tend to delete emails in their system at the first sign of trouble, and it means disappearing from your own company inbox. Only subpoenas tend to stop this behavior. They can't reach into your personal email so forward anything pertinent to yourself. Mentioning a lawyer/confronting can trigger the wipeout, and it's nice to have a papertrail of the timeline and events you described. It never even occurred to me to only use work email only for HR stuff; I've always CC'd my personal email because a lot of the time for PTO stuff you only have your phone, and not your company laptop Pretty sure deleting HR emails (hr specifically) is tantamount to willful destruction of evidence and is a crime in of itself
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Sep 22, 2021 22:05
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Keystoned posted:Has anyone experienced the other side where you ask for x and the offer side takes pity and offers you more? Yep, that was me when I got the offer for my current job. I spent 17 years at my last series of jobs (multiple acquisitions, multiple promotions, etc.), and I considered myself reasonably paid for the area I live in. I didn't think I could find a job paying what I was currently making, and thanks to my tenure I had a fantastic amount of PTO. (I place a heavy premium on work/life balance). I was making about 92K a year plus a 5% annual bonus, had like 30 days of PTO and good 401k match. The health insurance was not great after the last acquisition (3K HDHP). New CEO comes on board, <bunch of boring details that don't matter>, and I decided I need to GTFO of there. I disliked the working environment after the last company acquisition and I knew my time was up and the company direction was terrible. Had a friend of mine refer me to a position at a local company... Fortune 100, always one of the Forbes/local paper top places to work in IT, etc etc. Interviewed for my current job, they loved me. Told the recruiter I would take 95 for the mid level gig and was looking for 105 for the senior level gig. Come to find out 105 was below the bottom of the pay band for the senior position they offered me (108K-192K). Initial offer was 115K base, and I took it without negotiation. I wanted out of my old job badly, and the new company my total comp was going up over 40K once you include the 15% bonus, better healthcare, and everything else. Still have 25 PTO days as well. I'm not unhappy at all with this outcome though. I got out of a bad situation with a 25% base comp raise, total comp increase of like 40%, and got my foot in the door with a company I'm happy to work for. I'll do 20-25 years here and retire. My boss has been thrilled with my work, and already put me in for an off cycle raise, so pending approval that should probably be an 8% bump, which gets me to 124 ish, and then throw in next years 3%, and I'll be around 128 or so after 15 months of working here. I don't really feel like I have a super unique skillset, so this much compensation is just insane to me, but I'm not going to say no to it.
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Sep 22, 2021 22:29
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I'm a software developer, unemployed since the beginning of this month. I've fired off some applications and worked with some third party recruiters and had two of the recruiter opportunities hit final interviews. One came in with an offer of 6mo contract to hire $75k, no benefits (the recruiting company has a plan they can get me on 60 days after I start). Seems like a lovely deal regardless of negotiation. Just wrapped up the final interview for the other company. Feel pretty good about it, and anticipate an offer. The recruiter trying to get me placed asked: quote:I know <other recruiter> said you had another offer, what would <company> need to come in at to make you want to move forward with them? My idiot brain says "health insurance and enough money to afford beer," but I'm aware that's the wrong answer. When the recruiter first approached me about the role, I stayed quiet about salary expectations until he said they're looking to direct hire for $95-$100k. (Which I'd gladly accept). Do I just pretend I didn't see the text where he asked this or should I raise given that my BATNA sucks and this is just the outside recruiter?
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Sep 22, 2021 22:39
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I would probably just reply "the best compensation package they can put together" and leave it at that.
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Sep 22, 2021 23:30
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Kaiju15 posted:I'm a software developer, unemployed since the beginning of this month. Say you want 120-130. Hope they go up to 110-115. If you'd take their normal offer then maybe fold to air and take that. They very likely won't pull, they'll say they can only do 100-105. E: saying "tell me what you can put together" is also reasonable.
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Sep 22, 2021 23:47
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skipdogg posted:got my foot in the door with a company I'm happy to work for. I'll do 20-25 years here and retire I've thought this before as well, but remember you're always only 1 bad boss away from a new job (or unemployment).
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Sep 23, 2021 09:27
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empty whippet box posted:I have a job interview which should be a lock today. Start date should be in a couple weeks. No matter what happens I will be finishing out this training and then leaving for the new job, assuming I get it, which I should. They have hosed around and now they will find out. In the meantime, I still haven't been paid so I guess I have to call my state's dept of labor at this point because I can't get anyone in the company to respond to any email or inquiry about my pay no matter who I send it to or what I say. Excellent, you should absolutely call the state once you have final confirmation from the new place. And but some popcorn, because it could be fun to watch. I just wanted to make sure you didn't get yourself fired and unemployed because of a delayed payment.
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Sep 23, 2021 09:44
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LochNessMonster posted:I've thought this before as well, but remember you're always only 1 bad boss away from a new job (or unemployment). Or acquisition or merger or ...
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Sep 23, 2021 15:23
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Xguard86 posted:Or acquisition or merger or ... Reorganization. I went from being on a team I loved to being on a team I hated just because someone higher on the ladder decided to shake things up
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Sep 23, 2021 15:26
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Or thinking you'd be fine with bored comfort and finding out that's not true
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Sep 23, 2021 18:39
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LochNessMonster posted:I've thought this before as well, but remember you're always only 1 bad boss away from a new job (or unemployment). Very true. My old boss was 100% the reason I walked away from 17 years at the last place(s). I was assigned to him post acquisition along with some other SME's to form a new team that didn't really go anywhere. I remember clearly the day I decided I was going to quit after we had a 1:1. Aug 14th 2020. It took me until Nov to find a new job which I didn't start until Jan 2021 I still talk to my old co-workers once in a while. My old manager is no longer a manager and has basically been moved to a position that he can't really do much to hurt things anymore, my old teammates have all been reassigned. I don't know what that guy has on someone, but he should have been fired years ago. I'm hoping things work out, but if they don't, it'll be fine.
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Sep 23, 2021 19:32
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People don't quit jobs, they quit bad managers  My manager commented on how happy I was at work today ... I guess he'll figure out why when I tender my resignation next week 
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Sep 23, 2021 19:44
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skipdogg posted:Very true. My old boss was 100% the reason I walked away from 17 years at the last place(s). I was assigned to him post acquisition along with some other SME's to form a new team that didn't really go anywhere. I remember clearly the day I decided I was going to quit after we had a 1:1. Aug 14th 2020. It took me until Nov to find a new job which I didn't start until Jan 2021 Once you become a manager, in my experience, you can only fail upwards. My previous job had the manager literally bring down half the team including me with stress (actual, doctor-requiring stress with months of recovery), twice for one of my colleagues. While also absolutely bombing our project. He was actually fired, but it took him two weeks to get an equivalent job. The job before, I and more than half the team left within a year or two of getting a new manager. I went to her boss and told him about it, I talked to various people at the company including other managers at her level about her, and everyone agreed that she was bad at her job and hard to work with. And she is leading a governance team, which is literally about working together. But she's still there, and still terrible. And also the only thing I really disliked about that job. Anyway, I'm just venting. But thanks to her being a terrible person (actually, she wasn't much of a person, just a drone) and this thread, I was able to afford a house. So even bad bosses can be good.
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Sep 23, 2021 20:49
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BonHair posted:So even bad bosses can be good. This is a good way to look at it. Chanes my perspective a bit. Without him I wouldn't be where I'm at today. I was comfortable at the last job, and scared of change, and content to just float on, but he pissed me off enough that he forced me out of my comfort zone to find something new. It doesn't hurt that something new equals a ton more money in my pocket as well and a much better work environment. I should send him an edible arrangement or something. It's funny though, everyone at my last job knew that guy was a problem. When I did my exit interview with his boss (director level) and HR they both already knew he was a problem, and had fielded multiple complaints over at least the last 2 years about him. No one liked working for him, or with him. People would avoid involving our team on things because of him. I actually said "I don't really like to talk negatively about people but" and they interrupted me and said "yeah we know", and we moved along. I don't know why people like that get to stick around so long. I think a good part of it is the hiring managers ego. They don't want to admit they made a mistake promoting or hiring a lovely manager, so instead of admitting they made a bad call they let this person just exist as a cancer to the organization. I have no desire to ever be in management, but I always tell myself I'll fire fast and admit I made a mistake if I ever make a bad hire.
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Sep 23, 2021 21:05
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Same story here. Was chipping away happily at a company I enjoyed working for, nice team members aand then a guy became our manager that worked there for 20 years. I had plenty of great interactions with him in the past but in hindsight he was probably faking every single second. He turned out to be a literal psycho, sexually harrassed multiple people (all quit) and sent HR to get rid of others. Several complaints to HR were made but a decade later, the guy is still working there. He came after me too but since they had nothing on paper but excellent performances multiple years in a row. So I lawyered up and they settled on all demands so at least I got some satisfaction from that. I heard he was extremely salty about that afterwards and badmouthed me for months after I was gone. Looking back at it now it thaught me some great lessons. 1) Never ever trust your manager. 2) Never trust or do anything with HR 3) Make sure you’re always learning, never become complacent. 4) The company doesn’t give a single gently caress about you personally and will ditch you the moment it’s more profitable to do so. Treat them the same way. 5)You don’t owe them anything besides the labor they pay you for. 6)  when you start having doubts, don’t wait and stay in a abusive/toxic environment. Leaving that company has brought me so many opportunities I’d otherwise never would’ve encountered. It’s probably the best thing that happened to me during my career even if it felt so lovely/wrong at the time. I’ve learned a lot of new (marketable) skills because of it and managed to triple my compensation since then, not in the least thanks to this thread. Still, gently caress that guy though.
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Sep 23, 2021 23:14
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Bad managers hang around the same reason bad ICs do: combination of aversion to conflict and laziness in their boss. There's certainly exceptions of course but it's not complicated an awful lot of directors are personally pretty chicken-poo poo and comfortable.
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Sep 23, 2021 23:45
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empty whippet box posted:I have a job interview which should be a lock today. Start date should be in a couple weeks. No matter what happens I will be finishing out this training and then leaving for the new job, assuming I get it, which I should. They have hosed around and now they will find out. In the meantime, I still haven't been paid so I guess I have to call my state's dept of labor at this point because I can't get anyone in the company to respond to any email or inquiry about my pay no matter who I send it to or what I say. Save/record/document all of your communication efforts. Especially if it's a work email account. Speaking of changing jobs! I want to change departments. Specifically, I want to use my company's education benefit, then transfer to the developer team. (I've been working through programming books, Codecademy and Udemy in my free time. I've attended local dev MeetUps. I've talked with my dev friends at FAANGs and smaller local shops. I want this!) Why this is seems like a good idea vs. applying elsewhere: Changing departments is the norm at my workplace. They'll pay for more education. My company has good benefits. I could stay remote. I'm on a committee with the PM from the dev team, and she's really great. I've worked with the lead devs on some projects, and they're great, too. I also could learn a lot from the director of product, who I've worked with in the past. I see a way to build a portfolio pieces and get experience without the application/interview process. I make my manager's life pretty easy and earn solid reviews. For this reason, I don't expect "retaliation." I want out of my team because I want a challenge and opportunity for greater income down the road. If the dev team says no, oh well I do the more inconvenient option. How do I ask my manager for this? My manager appreciates clear, corporate language, which I am not great at. Edit: I'll take a swing. Ideally this is a face-to-face interaction? "Manager, I've been teaching myself programming in my free time. I'm very interested in pursuing it professionally. I really enjoy contributing to Company. Could we make a plan to make this happen inside Company? This seems like the best way to produce an ongoing conversation that mitigates risk. I don't expect a yes/no immediately. ThePopeOfFun fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 24, 2021 |
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Sep 24, 2021 00:57
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My gut reaction would be to talk to people on the dev team, see what they think, maybe go to "virtual lunch" with some of them; see if someone there might vouch for you. Then talk with that person and the dev manager, maybe as a sidebar on a more project focused meeting. If you can get team buy in and the dev manager buy in, then approach your manager and take it from there. Get the group consensus first, make it easy/comfortable for your manager to stick their neck out for you
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Sep 24, 2021 01:41
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I booked a "followup meeting" with my manager today, for Monday at noon, with no agenda.
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Sep 24, 2021 19:56
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Wibla posted:I booked a "followup meeting" with my manager today, for Monday at noon, with no agenda. Absolutely brutal.
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Sep 24, 2021 21:27
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Wibla posted:I booked a "followup meeting" with my manager today, for Monday at noon, with no agenda. Why have a face to face meeting? Is it just to make them squirm? Or is it a business courtesy thing? Last two times I've left jobs, I've just done it with an email to my boss and maybe their boss as well. Something like, "To whom it may concern, please consider this my two weeks notice. The last day I will be available to work for Chocolate Teapot Inc is xx/yy/zzzz. As a matter of personal policy, I will decline to conduct any exit interviews."
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Sep 24, 2021 21:39
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Magnetic North posted:Why have a face to face meeting? Is it just to make them squirm? Or is it a business courtesy thing? I want to deliver it in person, and get right on planning for a cordial handover of projects and tasks. Let's say 90% business courtesy / 10% to make them squirm
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Sep 24, 2021 21:48
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Speaking of: what’s the consensus on exit interviews? I’ve never really thought twice about giving them and now I’m wondering if I should change that policy.
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Sep 25, 2021 16:47
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Give them, be as boring as you possibly can, politely but relentlessly refuse to sign anything. It's tempting to tell HR in the exit interview that your boss sucks and is the reason you left, but don't. It won't hurt your sucky boss, it will only hurt you.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:18
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I told HR that they were the reason I left my last job 
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Sep 25, 2021 17:55
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Eric the Mauve posted:Give them, be as boring as you possibly can, politely but relentlessly refuse to sign anything. I always do the exit interview and provide detailed info of all the things that are hosed up IMO. And every single dysfunctional org would, after the interview, offer a direct rehire if I ever wanted to come back. I know that many don't like to "burn any bridges". The personal connections are the only thing that I care about. Those usually share my opinions, and I hope that my feedback might nudge the org at least a little bit and help my former colleagues. But yeah, otherwise, HR is the enema.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:05
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gbut posted:HR is the enema.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:06
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I can't speak to your experience, but in my experience exit interviews have always been with HR, and HR is never anything but the C-suite's honor guard. Trying to affect change in the company by explaining to an HR drone the ways in which it's hosed up is hopeless.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:20
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What you want is for them to add one more tick mark to whatever category (pay, environment etc) Your feedback, in detail, is whatever but I've seen change come because there's an attrition problem and people are reporting the same 2-3 reasons. So that means just keep your message simple and polite.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:35
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Yeah now that I think about it my departure plus a few others actually did result in the people still there getting pretty significant raises. I don’t know how much of that I can chalk up to the exit interview itself vs. management seeing the writing on the wall and getting spooked.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:26
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I don’t mind giving exit interviews. They usually don’t mean much and I don’t expect anything to change. I do love to see HR pissed off which always seems to happen. Mostly because they try to diminish legitimate issues and I don’t give any fucks about calling them out on such behaviour, because hey, it’s my exit interview. Usually calling them/their behaviour as the exact reason for the turnover rates.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:56
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