|
This is the first time I’ve heard anyone complain about the romance in the Matrix. It isn’t the Notebook, the movie is better for using shorthand and getting to the point.
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 03:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:56 |
|
|
Shiroc posted:Neo and Trinity just sharply vibe and connect (because they're both trans). How are they trans?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 03:20
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:e: and highlighting that trans people crushing hard on other trans people is totally a thing
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
MLSM posted:How are they trans? The entire movie? https://www.google.com/search?q=the+matrix+as+trans+allegory Trinity's whole backstory is unclear but she reads heavily as someone just slightly farther along figuring themselves out than Neo. Neo is crushing on her because of that. Trinity is crushing on Neo because she seems so much of herself in him and the exciting potential for what he could become once he fully finds himself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 03:35
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:The entire movie? https://www.google.com/search?q=the+matrix+as+trans+allegory Neo always came across as someone — like millions of others — deeply alienated from a consumerist society to me rather than suffering from gender dysphoria?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 04:48
|
|
|
Were all the previous “the ones” Keanu reeves or different people? I remember when reloaded came out there were rumors Merovingian was a previous incarnation of the one
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:07
|
|
|
Matrix is obviously very LGBT-friendly, but it’s not precisely an allegory. The problem is that, if the Matrix is a fairly perfect simulation of 1999, then there are presumably literal trans people inside the matrix - already taking estrogen pills, getting surgeries and so-on. And those people would be, according to Morpheus, potential enemy agents: “so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.” Confounding things further, we all know the story of Switch, who I would argue is a literal trans character even in the completed film. But think about this for a second: if Switch switches whenever they enter the matrix, then this digital “self-image” must be their true gender! It could be that Switch’s ability is a result of clever hacking, the same way Neo can spawn a new outfit and “lots of guns”. But why would the machines bother to deliberately induce dysphoria in the first place? Are they just jerks, or what? In either case, it seems more likely that Morpheus is trying to awaken people to “old fashioned” sexual reproduction: “Me and my brother Dozer, we’re both one hundred percent pure, old fashioned, home-grown human.”
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:08
|
|
|
MLSM posted:Neo always came across as someone — like millions of others — deeply alienated from a consumerist society to me rather than suffering from gender dysphoria? Your analysis is correct. People are reading way too much into this stuff and there’s a ton of revisionist history going on. Yes there are some elements of the trans experience in The Matrix (Switch, the red pill, living two lives,etc) but at the end of the day it’s a film about questioning authority, systems of control, nonconformity, rebellion, and individualism. There’s also those same cautionary tale elements from The Terminator and Jurassic Park about humans playing God, the dangers of AI, the advancements of robotics, humans are own worst enemies, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:11
|
|
|
I wonder, if you switched Carrie and Keanu's roles, if anything would be substantially different.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:28
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:I wonder, if you switched Carrie and Keanu's roles, if anything would be substantially different.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:32
|
|
|
lol the movie that tons of trans people say is very trans, directed by two trans woman who outright state that it was expressing and processing their feelings, "well actually it is not trans at all!" Come the gently caress on. Yes there is other stuff but again, come the gently caress on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:35
|
|
|
Noob Saibot posted:Your analysis is correct. People are reading way too much into this stuff and there’s a ton of revisionist history going on. Yes there are some elements of the trans experience in The Matrix (Switch, the red pill, living two lives,etc) but at the end of the day it’s a film about questioning authority, systems of control, nonconformity, rebellion, and individualism. It’s almost like there are multiple valid ways to read a movie
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 05:43
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:lol the movie that tons of trans people say is very trans, directed by two trans woman who outright state that it was expressing and processing their feelings, "well actually it is not trans at all!" Come the gently caress on. Yes there is other stuff but again, come the gently caress on. The film came out years before they were trans. And I haven’t seen anything indicating gender dysphoria with Neo and Trinity. Maybe the new one will?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 06:02
|
|
|
MLSM posted:The film came out years before they were trans.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 06:06
|
|
|
MLSM posted:The film came out years before they were trans. And I haven’t seen anything indicating gender dysphoria with Neo and Trinity. Maybe the new one will? Every single trans person, once they are aware they are trans, has tons of moments of looking back on their life and going 'lol that was so stupid that I didn't realize it yet.' Yes, other people experience alienation. The particulars of the alienation and how the most constant 'I am the bad guy' villainous thing that Smith does is deadname Neo to deny his self indentification is trans as gently caress. Person who is not (knowingly?) trans: I don't see any gender dysphoria here! It is the trans people who are wrong.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 06:38
|
|
|
Edit; Forget it. Point conceded.
MLSM fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Sep 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 07:21
|
|
|
At the very least, the character of Switch shows they were thinking about it in some capacity while making the first movie. Too bad they didn't follow through with having the character played by different gendered actors inside/outside the Matrix, but maybe the new one will have a character like that?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 07:28
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:At the very least, the character of Switch shows they were thinking about it in some capacity while making the first movie. Too bad they didn't follow through with having the character played by different gendered actors inside/outside the Matrix, but maybe the new one will have a character like that?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 11:07
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:I wonder, if you switched Carrie and Keanu's roles, if anything would be substantially different. It would certainly affect the parts where Trinity is like “I’m a woman, and I love this man.” It’s a lot more accurate to call Matrix an intersectional film, where the directors highlight the affinities between different marginalized groups - and where the directors’ personal experiences account for stuff like the emphasis on naming and body modification. One of the biggest problems in Matrix is that they kept the same actors for the matrix and real-world scenes, when it really doesn’t make sense for the pale dude in the pod and his digital self to both look like Keanu Reeves. That’s where we should have switched actors and have Neo played by Lucy Liu or something for the remainder of the film.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 13:32
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:One of the biggest problems in Matrix is that they kept the same actors for the matrix and real-world scenes, when it really doesn’t make sense for the pale dude in the pod and his digital self to both look like Keanu Reeves. This opens up a whole nother "tasty wheat" kinda discussion. What governs how you look in the matrix? I guess its just easier for them to make you think you look like your dormant body actually does. And just because the Matrix really does fit well as a trans allegory, doesn't mean Neo and Trinity are also in any way trans in the film (they aren't)
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 13:49
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:One of the biggest problems in Matrix is that they kept the same actors for the matrix and real-world scenes, when it really doesn’t make sense for the pale dude in the pod and his digital self to both look like Keanu Reeves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 14:13
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It would certainly affect the parts where Trinity is like “I’m a woman, and I love this man.” Almost certain that would have been nixed by the studio because "The audience would get confused about who the main character is supposed to be", like the original "humans are used as a neural network" idea that got scrapped for the battery thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 14:21
|
|
|
The United States posted:Keanu can absolutely go to town too. They just left all that footage out. No they didn't. They're in the screens.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 14:51
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:Trinity's whole backstory is unclear but she reads heavily as someone just slightly farther along figuring themselves out than Neo. Neo is crushing on her because of that. Trinity is crushing on Neo because she seems so much of herself in him and the exciting potential for what he could become once he fully finds himself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 15:05
|
|
|
Archer666 posted:Almost certain that would have been nixed by the studio because "The audience would get confused about who the main character is supposed to be", like the original "humans are used as a neural network" idea that got scrapped for the battery thing. Right, so the unfortunate thing is that this does affect the film. Despite whatever good intentions, it's not so progressive. Like, under the basic trans allegory interpretation, dysphoria is a result of a simple programming error in the matrix. The simple interpretation is that Switch was inexplicably assigned a male avatar by the machines when she is 'supposed to be' female - so, the characters awaken to their true identities in the destitution of 'the real world'. But this means, problematically, that the characters' "true identities" are rooted in biological sex. If trans identity is purely the result of a matrix error, then there are literally no trans people in Zion. And this is underlined by Zion being the realm of traditional sexual pairings: "old-fashioned" husband-wife family units, the Morpheus/Niobe/Locke love triangle, etc. Inside the matrix, on the other hand, there's hardly any reference to that stuff. It's all orgiastic fetish parties, all the time. The entire population is possibly made up of clones, and Evil Cypher is evil because he doesn't care whether his meat is 'real'.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
Obviously, the allegory in the Matrix wont be literal - they wont have Neo says "I am trans" and then start taking hormones, but hitting on different themes that resonate generally with the trans experience. I'm cis so I'm not going to say authoritatively all of the aspects of the Matrix that resonate in that way but there's clearly aspects of how "choice" is presented as a liberatory experience, the stultifying conformity of society, the existence of an entire world that's hidden from view, the extremely somatic experience of waking up from the Matrix and the dichotomy between the irl and Matrix representations of self, the revolution against the oppressive present state of things, etc. I agree with SMG that the Matrix really missed the boat in having actors play both their Matrix and IRL selves - not only doesn't it make sense but its a huge missed opportunity. Obviously people would look different if they lived in a pod their entire lives, but also they'd have no idea what they look like at all, they've never seen a mirror! And it misses the possibility of taking on any sort of representation at all, which possibly opens more doors than the Wachowskis wanted to walk through. Of course, production wise, it would have been impossible to cast major actors like Keanu Reeves for half a role.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 16:05
|
|
|
The ideal matrix film would have Neo played by Keanu inside the simulation and by Keanu in "the real world". But then, Neo realizes that even this "real" body doesn't match her identity. So, Neo returns to the matrix, and it's... still Keanu. But she begins a lengthy and difficult process of installing various gender mods for breasts, etc., and doing so unlocks the self-confidence that is the ultimate source of her superpowers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
One of the huge parts of a common trans experience that the Matrix has uniquely from general 'disaffected gen X white boy problems' is that the Matrix completely dissociates a person from body. Neo exists in a haze his whole time until he takes the leap to accept a truth about himself and suddenly experiences being embodied for the first time ever. His body is suddenly real and he's feeling it and it isn't just a weird dissociative vessel for his brain. The rest of the movie he's slowly trying to work out actually existing. I can't really fully express what it is like to get into my 30s and finally be 'oh hey my body is actually mine and means something to me.' The Agents potentially being anyone isn't a 'real' threat for most people but it is for visibly queer and trans people. We go through out lives knowing that any person we don't know could suddenly flip the gently caress out and do violence against us. Neo's big hero line is to assert "My name is Neo" against someone who constantly refuses and diminishes to accept his self identity. Ever since I started changing my name, even legally to assert making it 'legitimate', its a constant struggle to actually get that to be recognized and for people to treat it as meaningful. How many disaffected under capitalism people don't even get to have their loving names? Certainly it isn't solely trans people but we sure as gently caress get it as a near universal experience. Not every trans person is going to have the same experiences but these are the kinds that are resonating with us, not little obvious things like the pills being red or the original concept for Switch. Other characters can represent different things, in part because we aren't presented their moments of realization and embodiment. Morpheus' conflict is more a generic libertarian rebellion thing. Cypher reads like a guy who expected knowing the truth to give him status and power and he's angry that it didn't. A proto right wing misuse of red pill. Mouse exists in more of an internet is cool kind of person. Switch and Apoc are barely characters in the finished film and are just extras so Cypher can kill people. Trinity and Neo's stories are so sharply tied to together is why I just link them together. SMG you're just way, way off the mark because you're trying to view the trans experience as some intellectual exercise and are getting it completely wrong. Just because some of the things are less legible to you because of studio interference or where the Wachowski's were on their personal journeys at the time doesn't mean it isn't there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It would certainly affect the parts where Trinity is like “I’m a woman, and I love this man.” I didn't really get the sense from the films that your persona/"freed" avatar in the Matrix is supposed to be your idealized self, although it could be. More that it was you in a state of subdued, often serene, monk-like contemplation. I guess the real poo poo would be if Keanu woke up from the first time in reality to discover that he is a woman or just otherwise different from who he is in the Matrix. Since he wouldn't necessarily know before then! I also wonder what the Matrix did for sex in film. The romance in the Matrix does not read as overt to a lot of people, almost glued on to the "perfect action movie." Later we get lots of superhero movies where they just never gently caress, ever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
Really good post, and very informative for a know-nothing cis dude like me
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:22
|
|
|
The distinction between the 'unreal' Matrix and 'real' outside world pretty much breaks down in the sequels, given how we are presented with the deeply humanized programs for whom the Matrix is everything and Neo being able to use Matrix powers outside. Treating them as wholly separate realms doesn't feel entirely right unless you limit it solely to the first movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
Apologies if these have been posted already. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53692435 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adXm2sDzGkQ
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:
It's funny because they seem to try to rectify this in the sequels by having maybe the least erotic orgy ever shown on screen. I don't blame the Matrix and its sequels for the gradual de-sexing of cinema, but it certainly was a harbinger of things to come. Mostly it was Disney to blame, I think.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:34
|
|
|
The lack of sex in the first Matrix sort of makes sense just because there's really no time to slow down, they're going to see the Oracle then Morpheus gets taken and they're off to rescue him. Like someone else already mentioned, the love story aspect really depends on the idea that Trinity already was in love with him because she'd been observing him for a long time before the events of the movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
Sex for egg trans people can also be really uncomfortable and weird. I think that's less of a discussion of theme of the movie (since its so limited) but more of stating why the Wachowski's might not have really thought about it and when it does come up its all kind of off. 80s-90s action movies generally always found a place to put a sex scene and titty other than something like Commando, which is instead wildly homoerotic. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Sep 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:48
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:One of the huge parts of a common trans experience that the Matrix has uniquely from general 'disaffected gen X white boy problems' is that the Matrix completely dissociates a person from body. It's not an either/or thing; the story of Matrix 1 is that literally the entire population of Earth is going through what Neo is going through. "Billions of people just living out their lives." So yeah, that includes everyone from Neo the gen-x white boy, to Switch, to Morpheus the black libertarian. This flattening out of the film's intended message may be a result of interference by a transphobic studio, but the end result is the end result. I am of course not discounting that the story of liberation and choosing a name for yourself has an emotional resonance, but I just don't see this 'Star Trek' binary between emotion and intellect. Like, if we think about the movie, and determine that it's not super progressive, it's going to somehow hurt actual people? I believe that analysis is a jumping-off point to explore. "This really resonated with me" is the beginning.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:Sex for egg trans people can also be really uncomfortable and weird. I think that's less of a discussion of theme of the movie (since its so limited) but more of stating why the Wachowski's might not have really thought about it and when it does come up its all kind of off. In the 80's it was generally the rule that you needed at least titties in your action/horror film or else why did we even make this movie, if not to attract young teens?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:Sex for closeted trans people can also be really uncomfortable and weird. I think that's less of a discussion of theme of the movie (since its so limited) but more of stating why the Wachowski's might not have really thought about it and when it does come up its all kind of off. Considering their previous film rather infamously contained a fairly racy sex scene (albeit between two women) and was overall heavily eroticized, I'm not sure how well that tracks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:58
|
|
|
Where’s that Rambo franchise body count/kiss infographic when you need it
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 19:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:56 |
|
|
e: nevermind
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2021 20:54
|
|