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You will need a stand alone air filter if you want clean air. These have a fine mesh filter (or, my Fujitsu does) that traps big chunks. I run a monster Austin Air. $6000 is crazy town, but also isn't labor extremely constrained up there? I was getting quotes of $3500 iirc for a similar system 2 years ago with a marginally more complex installation (mostly distance related. There was no drywall when it was installed.) I bought a sketchy gray market system off the internet and paid people to install it.  Even if it shits the bed the replacement of the entire unit is cheap as the hard parts are done.I wouldn't worry about heating. Use a space heater if it freezes outside.
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Sep 25, 2021 00:17
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that was two years ago, in the before times. both labor and material costs have skyrocketed. EDIT: here in commercial/industrial/institutional land, we have customers locking in prices now for major equipment upgrades that won't happen for two years. not that its the same thing.
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Sep 25, 2021 00:19
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MRC48B posted:if the price isn't an issue (I have no idea what the install looks like) and mitsu contractor has good references, I would go that way, but I'm biased having worked with mitsu and daikin's big systems. If the prices are pretty close, go with the Mitsu. They are #1 in the minisplit space, by a country mile. Check to ensure the contractor is a 'Diamond' contractor (on Mitsu's site), which extends the parts warranty to 12 years, and gives you some assurance they aren't complete knuckleheads.
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Sep 25, 2021 01:30
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MRC48B posted:that was two years ago, in the before times. both labor and material costs have skyrocketed. I mean, I'm glad their kids are going to college and or their truck equity is through the roof, it's still crazy town. seize the means of production and all that. I guess I expected it to be an extra grand, not ~double. As is usual if three bids give you nominally the same answer from reputable dealers then that's the price the market will bear. For me it was like $3200/$3500/$6500 for the same job. I discarded the obvious outlier and was ready to pay $3500.
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Sep 25, 2021 02:02
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none of it's going to the guy on the truck. the boss has to rebuild his lakehouse in tahoe
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Sep 25, 2021 02:15
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So the Daikin quote came in at $5620 (financed) or $4900 (cash/check). Both quotes offer 5yr 0% financing and 12yrs parts/labor warranty. But the Mitsubishi quote wants an additional $368 for the labor warranty whereas the Daikin is included. The Daikin quote also has this thing called an iWave-M for an optional add on for $450. I think I’m going to haggle with the other guy and see if he’ll come down in price or offer an all cash option as well but he seems pretty far off from the Daikin guy. It doesn’t sound like from you guys the Mitsubishi is so much better that it would be worth spending the extra. Oh I should also note that the Daikin guy is also a Mitsubishi Diamond installer but when he came he seemed against installing a Mitsubishi. I could have him run another quote for a Mitsubishi. /shrug xgalaxy fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Sep 25, 2021 |
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Sep 25, 2021 03:56
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xgalaxy posted:So the Daikin quote came in at $5620 (financed) or $4900 (cash/check). From what I have read / learned, the warranty from the manufacturer should never cost extra -- you get it if you pay their authorized installer and that should be the end of it. Is he tacking on some extra maintenance thing to the Mitsu units? Also, FWIW -- really diving into the details trying to find something that works for my place, Mitsubishi seems to have put more thought and care into the designs of their cassettes (perusing the engineering manuals, service manuals, test procedures, etc.) compared to Daikin -- but the latter also doesn't share as much publicly, and everyone in this industry is trying to build relatively complicated devices for the lowest possible price point (like printers) so in the end I guess its all a moot point anyways.
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Sep 27, 2021 16:22
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Is it the difference between parts only and labor+gas warranty? I know for my macro unit it's only parts.
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Sep 27, 2021 16:47
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Okay so I had the second contractor I was talking to (who does both Daikin and Mitsubishi) run a quote for the same Mitsubishi the first contractor quoted me. His quote is: - MUZFS15NA & MSZFS15NA - $5390 (cash/check) or $5990 (financed) including 12yr parts warranty - optional: +$350 for 12 yr labor warranty - optional: +$450 iWave-M So he is quite a bit cheaper than the first contractor. So I think I'm going to go with him. I trust he will do good work so I have no worries there. He is also a Diamond installer of Mitsubishi. Comparing that to his Daikin quote of: - RXS12LVJU & FTXS12LVJU - $4900 (cash/check) or $5620 (financed) including 12yr parts & labor warranty - optional: +$450 iWave-M So I guess my question is, comparing apples to apples here. Is the Mitsubishi w/ 12 yr parts/labor warranty for $5740 worth it over the Daikin of $4900. In other words, is the Mitsubishi $840 better than the Daikin? I read all over reddit anyway that people swear by Mitsubishi. $800 difference isn't breaking the bank territory. I just want to know that I am spending money wisely here. I don't want a dud. xgalaxy fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Sep 27, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2021 18:52
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Mein froinds, I need advice on my HVAC options, please help. Situation: House is 28 years old and still on the original furnace. I turned it on last week and it was making both a fairly nasty noise and an unpleasant small. The repair guys I called tell me that both the inducer motor (making a bad noise) and heat exchanger (creating the bad smell) are crap and it's time to replace the furnace. They offered a couple options, one for a 96% efficient two-stage furnace, and one for a 98% efficient modulating furnace for a couple thousand more. I'm going to get a second opinion on repairs and a second bid on replacement before I spend any serious money, but I'm torn between the two options. On the one hand, more efficiency sounds good. It might not pay for itself directly but we're burning fossil fuels here and I can rationalize spending a couple thousand bucks to be more green on something that ought to be good for 10-15 years. However, to take full advantage of the modulating furnace, we need the fancy thermostat. These guys are a Bryant dealer so they're pitching Connex. Right now I have a Nest, and aside from the basic home/away thing, the aspect of the Nest I really like is that it can switch to looking at the remote temperature sensor in our master bedroom at night. Our duct plan isn't very good, the upstairs usually lags a bit behind the downstairs, so having the thermostat key off the temperature of the room we're actually in at night is helpful. My impression is that Connex can't use a remote sensor outside the context of a multi-zone system. Our budget will not stretch to trying to redo our ducts or put in a two-zone system. I therefore feel like I'm giving up something I'll miss. Is the Connex a decent platform or a half-assed Internet of poo poo offering? Is the modulating design so much more efficient that we can just adjust the main thermostat to be a little cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter to make up for the lack of a sensor in the master bedroom? Are there questions I'm not asking but should be? Thanks for any wisdom you all care to share.
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Sep 27, 2021 20:52
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You will never ever recoup the difference between a 96 and a 98% furnace. If you're really worried about being more green, you'd be better off taking that money you would spend on the furnace and insulating your home better. That would have more of an impact on the amount of fossil fuel you use to heat your home than an extra 2% efficiency out of a furnace.
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Sep 27, 2021 21:15
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skipdogg posted:You will never ever recoup the difference between a 96 and a 98% furnace. I hadn't thought about it that way but it makes sense. Thanks.
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Sep 27, 2021 21:59
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The "modulating" one sounds like it might be more variable than 2-stage, which likely greatly improves the SEER/EER of the furnace beyond the 2% raw efficiency upgrade, but for $2000 you could insulate your attic to modern standards. That could literally take hour(s) off your daily run time depending on what you are starting with in your home. If your attic or walls aren't insulated, or your attic is like R-5 or whatever, then fix that first and your comfort will greatly improve.
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Sep 27, 2021 22:07
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Get the two stage and insulate better. I'm a sucker for vfd everything, but gas is not one of them except for very specific applications which do not apply to you, the goon homeowner.
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Sep 27, 2021 22:50
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Zorak of Michigan posted:
I've got carrier infinity touch, which is the same thing, the remote sensor can be used without zoning but when connected it is the only source. You could put a toggle switch or something on the wiring so you could turn it "on" and "off" by connecting/disconnecting it. No opinions on the smart platform itself really, I have changed the temp from my phone and that works fine. If you are a person so inclined, there is an open source project called infinitude that acts as a MITM proxy from the thermostat to carrier or connects directly to the ABCD carrier/Bryant bus and can talk to other home automation software. Also have never gotten up the motivation to do that either 
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Oct 2, 2021 03:17
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Those mini split prices are incredible. I had an install in March for 2 12k wall heads and 24k hyper heat outdoor unit @ 8.7k cash. I even shopped around and my highest 'gently caress you' prices was 15k for these Mitsubishis in Chicago.
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Oct 11, 2021 16:22
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Hello HVAC thread, I have a renovation project I am working on and the HVAC component is causing me some trouble. So, gonna make an effortpost here about what I am trying to accomplish and hopefully I can get pointed in the right direction. Current situation: I am renovating a room in my basement that is 20x21. 3 sides are exterior to the home, the back wall is 100% below grade, the front wall is 50% below grade and the side sloping between. 4th wall is an interior partition. This room will end up being a general play space, about half a home theater, a quarter a bar and the last quarter open space for my currently young kids. This room currently is served by my existing central air system, it has 3 supplies and 1 return. What I am trying to accomplish: First, I would like independent temperature control of the space. Past experience has shown that when you have a lot of people watching a movie, 10 bodies or so, plus a projector lamp and av gear etc, the space heats up a lot. So, being able to cool the room well without freezing the rest of the house would be great. Second, I am attempting to soundproof this room pretty well. To that end I would like to remove it from the existing central air system, getting rid of large openings connected by a tube to other rooms is pretty helpful for keeping sound in. However, if I do a good job at the soundproofing, that will also make the room relatively airtight (I know its not completely airtight). So, this means I need a means of fresh air exchange so it stays comfortable and doesn't get stuffy. So, there is a clear solution here: Mini-split for temp control with an ERV for fresh air. I got some quotes and one company here quoted me $7200 for a heat pump + ceiling cassette with a fresh air exchange (19.8 seer Mitsubishi). The reason it is a ceiling cassette vs wall unit is they say its the only ones they can do that accept the fresh air exchange system. The unit is 22x22 and would require me to do some extensive reframing in the ceiling to use. First, regardless of other factors, is this a reasonable quote for what they are offering? Next, is that even a good way to go? What are some alternatives? I look around online and I see some (admittedly sketchy looking) single room ERV's that would be simple to install. I also see things like this:https://www.ecomfort.com/Panasonic-Ventilation-FV-04VE1/p32041.html that don't look too bad either. Seems like pairing that with a simpler wall unit mini split would work. Regarding mini splits, there seems to be a market for DIY friendly units. They are much much cheaper than anything I have been quoted. Are these units absolute trash? or are they decent enough to use for something like this? I would be very interested in the experiences of anyone who has gone this route. Any feedback on any aspect of this would be much appreciated, and if there is any additional useful information I missed please ask.
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Oct 12, 2021 15:43
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emocrat posted:So, there is a clear solution here: Mini-split for temp control with an ERV for fresh air. I got some quotes and one company here quoted me $7200 for a heat pump + ceiling cassette with a fresh air exchange (19.8 seer Mitsubishi). The reason it is a ceiling cassette vs wall unit is they say its the only ones they can do that accept the fresh air exchange system. The unit is 22x22 and would require me to do some extensive reframing in the ceiling to use. First, regardless of other factors, is this a reasonable quote for what they are offering? Mitsubishi makes a 16" wide cassette as well, MLZ-KP09/12/18 series -- that's what I'm looking at for my place because wall mount doesn't work and everyone else's ceiling cassettes are designed for drop ceiling / 2' x 2' spacing and would require reframing fuckery. Could be worth looking at. Cost seems high for a single unit, FWIW.
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Oct 12, 2021 19:55
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You are correct in that you do not HAVE to have the ERV connected to the hvac unit. it does allow for better temp control from the minisplit though, separate you can run into issues when you are out of the ERV's normal operating range, so it will be throwing too hot/too cold air out the erv supply into the room. feeding it into the indoor unit helps mix it with returning room air, then get conditioned before it goes into the occupied space.
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Oct 12, 2021 20:44
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emocrat posted:Hello HVAC thread, I have a renovation project I am working on and the HVAC component is causing me some trouble. So, gonna make an effortpost here about what I am trying to accomplish and hopefully I can get pointed in the right direction. Realistically - how often are you going to use the home theater? ERVs are great if they're in a space that's constantly used (or they're run for your whole house 24/7). I'm not convinced it would ever pay back versus a exhaust fan + some sort of passive air intake, unless you're going to be binge watching movies all day every day. The ERV saves money if you're constantly using the room, but probably doesn't pay for itself if it's only getting intermittent use. The magic term you're looking for here is air changes per hour. You should be able to calculate the square footage of the room + the number of people you expect to be in there peak, and turn that into a number for sizing your ventilation requirements. If you want to go ever further, you can put in a CO2 sensor, and have that turn on the ventilation (or increase speed) as levels rise. The EPA suggests 15CFM per person in residential spaces - the panasonic unit you mentioned is not really going to cut it for more then 3 people. devicenull fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 03:53
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FWIW, I was also looking at these to help in ventilation in my bedrooms (https://foursevenfive.com/lunos-e/) -- my CO2 sensors go off every night if I don't crack a window open (no go in winter / about now), or leave the bedroom door open. Compared to installing a HRV/ERV though, I guess adding a vent / louvre to the bedroom door could potentially help / be easier. I looked at the install of that Panasonic spot unit... the wall installation option is interesting. If I did joists, I'd have to get right-angle ducts to get out (i.e., the joists run parallel to the exterior wall I want to use) which I don't know if that's a thing.
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Oct 13, 2021 04:46
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When I get my fall tuneup/checkup on my system tomorrow, I'm actually going to ask for a quote for Trane's Clean Effects ERV, solely as a means to get some changeover.
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Oct 13, 2021 07:21
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. wrong window.
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Oct 13, 2021 14:04
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movax posted:Mitsubishi makes a 16" wide cassette as well, MLZ-KP09/12/18 series -- that's what I'm looking at for my place because wall mount doesn't work and everyone else's ceiling cassettes are designed for drop ceiling / 2' x 2' spacing and would require reframing fuckery. Could be worth looking at. Cost seems high for a single unit, FWIW. Thanks for the rec, I think the reason this was not recommended is that it does not have the knockouts to add the fresh air kit. However if I end up going another way on that I will def consider this, looks real sleek. MRC48B posted:You are correct in that you do not HAVE to have the ERV connected to the hvac unit. Good info and it makes sense thanks. devicenull posted:Realistically - how often are you going to use the home theater? ERVs are great if they're in a space that's constantly used (or they're run for your whole house 24/7). I'm not convinced it would ever pay back versus a exhaust fan + some sort of passive air intake, unless you're going to be binge watching movies all day every day. The ERV saves money if you're constantly using the room, but probably doesn't pay for itself if it's only getting intermittent use. Your right that the space wont be in constant use, but the issue is more peak use. I don't want to put the work and money into this space and then be in a situation where I cant comfortably use it for what I want even if the issue is rare. The point about cost is taken though. The exhaust/intake you mentioned, are you suggesting I basically just install a vent to the outdoors that I can open when needed and not worry about conditioning the air? I guess the logic is that I wont need it the vast majority of the time so the lost efficiency when I do use it is an acceptable trade off. Am I understanding this right?
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Oct 13, 2021 14:04
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SourKraut posted:When I get my fall tuneup/checkup on my system tomorrow, I'm actually going to ask for a quote for Trane's Clean Effects ERV, solely as a means to get some changeover. The quote came in at $5200 for an install of Trane's ERV; the service tech told me that the most difficult part is the roof opening for the intake and outlet. So now I get to debate/research how much it will help our inside dry air situation.
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Oct 13, 2021 19:02
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An ERV will not help humidity issues, they just make them worse in a lot of cases. If you are too dry, add a humidifier, if you are wet, check to see your ac is working/not short cycling.
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Oct 13, 2021 19:25
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Yeah, I should have clarified that it would have been used to just do general air exchange as one of the main drivers, and my thought with humidity improvement was that, at least in desert climates like mine, you can actually end up seeing a slight increase in humidity solely because the outside air will often be a little higher relative to the conditioned inside air, so while some is lost via the moisture transfer between incoming/outgoing air, we could still see a slight bump/improvement. What is the general thought on humidifiers though? I had kinda forgotten that Trane does sell a few, apparently manufactured by Aprilaire, and so that could be an option too, and probably cheaper I'm guessing? I've been a little nervous about another piece of equipment with a water supply line with failure, and also whether mold would become an issue with them.
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Oct 13, 2021 23:02
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Even now that I have the new two-stage HVAC unit, the house still tends to be fairly humid by the time the AC reaches its target temperatures and cuts off. Would I actually save any energy from month-to-month by installing a whole-house dehumidifier, or would I be better off just keeping the house at a lower temperature?
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Oct 13, 2021 23:51
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SourKraut posted:Yeah, I should have clarified that it would have been used to just do general air exchange as one of the main drivers, and my thought with humidity improvement was that, at least in desert climates like mine, you can actually end up seeing a slight increase in humidity solely because the outside air will often be a little higher relative to the conditioned inside air, so while some is lost via the moisture transfer between incoming/outgoing air, we could still see a slight bump/improvement. Update on this: My HVAC company declined to do a humidifier, since it'd be in the attic it seems (which I can't necessarily blame them), and recommended I just go to Home Depot and buy a whole home humidifier. 
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Oct 14, 2021 00:56
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Are there smoke generators or something similar that can be used for finding exit points of exhaust systems? Want to check my bathroom exhaus fan and it looks like there's some flex duct running from it to the underside of my roof, but I can't see any vent boxes there from outside. Trying to set if there's any other way to confirm exhaust outside the roof and where without climbing up and walking on it myself.
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Oct 19, 2021 22:40
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PageMaster posted:Are there smoke generators or something similar that can be used for finding exit points of exhaust systems? Want to check my bathroom exhaus fan and it looks like there's some flex duct running from it to the underside of my roof, but I can't see any vent boxes there from outside. Trying to set if there's any other way to confirm exhaust outside the roof and where without climbing up and walking on it myself. Wait until it gets cold out and run a hot shower. Then walk outside to find the steam.
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Oct 19, 2021 23:00
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Motronic posted:Wait until it gets cold out and run a hot shower. Then walk outside to find the steam. Is there a temp/humidity that this stops working at? If drops to about 60 in the mornings here and I'm not sure if that is going to be cod enough.
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Oct 20, 2021 00:45
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PageMaster posted:Is there a temp/humidity that this stops working at? If drops to about 60 in the mornings here and I'm not sure if that is going to be cod enough. That is definitely not cold enough, so sorry for assuming my climate  Anyway, yes, there are commercially available smoke machines for automotive and various other purposes but I can't imagine any of that is a reasonable solution in time or effort compared to a physical inspection. Maybe buying a cheap endoscope camera and feeding it on up there connected to your laptop?
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Oct 20, 2021 02:35
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Got an upstairs thermostat which controls AC (in the attic) for its zone, but doesn't seem to have wiring to run to the basement for controlling its heat zone (hydronic baseboard). Instead that heat zone control is tied to one of the downstairs heat zones. Any thoughts for getting the upstairs heat working with the correct thermostat? Seems like there are a few possibilities:
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Oct 20, 2021 15:41
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Mario posted:Just run the thermostat wiring from upstairs to basement. Do this if you can. Simplest, most reliable, and you can run power so you don't need a battery thermo.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:04
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IMO it should just be considered a hard rule, if you can reasonably run a wire you should run the wire. Wireless is for things that need to move around and things that need to be installed in locations where running a wire isn't worth the effort.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:23
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Mario posted:Got an upstairs thermostat which controls AC (in the attic) for its zone, but doesn't seem to have wiring to run to the basement for controlling its heat zone (hydronic baseboard). Instead that heat zone control is tied to one of the downstairs heat zones. Are you positive it's actually zoned this way? It would be quite strange to zone it and then not install a thermostat.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:25
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Motronic posted:Are you positive it's actually zoned this way? It would be quite strange to zone it and then not install a thermostat. Going to take a closer look at running a wire, thanks all.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:36
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wolrah posted:IMO it should just be considered a hard rule, if you can reasonably run a wire you should run the wire. Wireless is for things that need to move around and things that need to be installed in locations where running a wire isn't worth the effort. I am very bad at recognizing when wired effort >>>>>>>> wireless / battery operated. Still don't have my blinds running because I ordered wired ones.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:54
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PageMaster posted:Are there smoke generators or something similar that can be used for finding exit points of exhaust systems? Want to check my bathroom exhaus fan and it looks like there's some flex duct running from it to the underside of my roof, but I can't see any vent boxes there from outside. Trying to set if there's any other way to confirm exhaust outside the roof and where without climbing up and walking on it myself. Have someone else to help? Steam up your shower with the fan off, go outside, and ask them to turn it on. You should get a puff of steam somewhere even if the air isn't right for it to condense. This is how I verified ours worked in 90f heat.
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Oct 20, 2021 20:13
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