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I just wanna see Ferro, since she got all spirit powered at the end of the original trilogy I bet she's immortal to boot and possibly the most powerful character in the series aside from people like Glustrod. She eats eaters for breakfast and 99% likely to be the one who killed the prophet.
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Sep 28, 2021 09:59
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Gorst chat: The distraction would have made the difference if not for Jurand. He’s the one who immediately called for a full lockdown as a precaution, and the one who delivered the lucky bolt headshot on Gorst. Without him, Orso would have escaped the city and Leo would have lost all his remaining extremities.
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Sep 28, 2021 13:12
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Magitek posted:Gorst chat: The distraction would have made the difference if not for Jurand. He’s the one who immediately called for a full lockdown as a precaution, and the one who delivered the lucky bolt headshot on Gorst. Without him, Orso would have escaped the city and Leo would have lost all his remaining extremities. He definitely should've been at Stoffenbeck.
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Sep 28, 2021 13:49
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Doctor Jeep posted:the question is what kind of relationship would the north then have with the union. remember, orso existing is a direct threat to not only leo's rule but his life as well since in case of a counter-revolution orso would definitely kill him. I doubt Leo would just ignore that. Yeah, but… how exactly is Leo going to find out it was Rikke who smuggled him out of the city? At least for sure? On top of that, Rikke is worried about some sort of retribution on Leo’s part and an invasion of the North, right? Not only is the Union in absolutely no position to invade anyone, the chaos, destruction of the armed forces, and partial delegitimization of the monarchy after the Great Change means a few things, but most importantly: 1. The Union is in no economic shape to support an all out invasion of the North; 2. The Union military is going to have to be completely rebuilt; and 3. Leo ought to be super reluctant, even after the military is rebuilt, to send the Union army to the North and risk someone pulling a Leo on the new government while the Union army is in the North. E.g. another noble, or group of them, trying to seize the throne for themselves. On top of that, if Rikke lets Orso live and sends him off to Sipani, Rikke would be in an even better position; because then Leo would have the threat of a the deposed king trying to retake the throne with the army he raises in Sipani—a place with a vested interest in loving over the Union.
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Sep 28, 2021 20:33
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Having had some time to reflect on the trilogy as a whole, I'm pretty down on how it all turned out. A big appeal of the First Law trilogy for me was in the mix of internal and external conflicts each major character experienced throughout the books and the way those conflicts built up and then resolved in the final book. With this new trilogy I felt like maybe half the POV characters had anything approaching an interesting story and the other half of the cast turned out to be total duds. I'll start with an example of a character I thought was really well done, a character I started out disliking and ended up really hating. In all of Abercrombie's books Leo stands out as one of his more unique major points of view. Whereas most of his POVs start off looking like villains or bastards and are either shown to be at least somewhat sympathetic over time, or else just stay bastards throughout, Leo instead is on paper a brave noble hero but ends up being the biggest villain of the trilogy. He grew up being told that winning and attaining power is what makes for a great man so he can't understand why the people around him don't love him for doing exactly that, even when it comes at their expense. He repeatedly chooses ambition over happiness because he believes ambition will secure him happiness. But all it does is wall him off in isolation and misery. Leo's story not only is built well and resolved well, it's a story that unfolds as a consequence of who he is as a person. But there's Broad and Vick who at least in my opinoin were a complete waste of page space. Broad is a far less badass Ninefingers with literally no character development. He's a man with a violent past who wants to do better but can't get past his love for violence, and that's exactly who he is after three books too. Nothing interesting happens in his story and even as a POV character he's almost always close enough to other POV characters that his viewpoint doesn't add anything. I actually think he would have worked better without a point of view, at least that way there'd be some mystery about what motivates him and he'd maybe come off as more dangerous too. Vick got set up to make Glokta style hard choices between her divided sympathies and then never gets any hard choices to make. She just ends up running errands all trilogy and her point of view ends up amounting to a mobile plot advancer that Joe sends anywhere he can't get his other characters to go. I thought Tallow would turn out to be her actual long lost brother but the actual twist was just.. he was spying on her. Nothing interesting happens to either of them and neither of them are particularly fun to read about either. There were interesting places to take these characters (working man torn between his class sympathies and need to feed his family? imperial agent who must reconcile perpetuating the same evils that destroyed her own childhood?) but they never get explored. Rikke was the biggest letdown for me . In the first book she was set up with a lot of great story potential, hints at inner conflicts to come, and intriguing dynamics going with the other characters. The Rikke/Leo/Savine/Orso love square thing going on in the first book was fun. So was the Rikke/Leo/Stour dynamic, with hints that her anger issues are bound to lead her into big mistakes. Then for the next two books she hangs out mostly by herself and does a lot of off-screen plotting in a very rational and calculating way to win the throne of the North, and the earlier character dynamics just sorta get dropped. It's Rikke in particular that makes me have trouble believing Joe wrote all three books in sequence just because of how big a shift there is in her story direction. In the end there's almost no real conflict in her storyline. Even Clover had more of an internal struggle.
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Sep 28, 2021 20:49
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The Ninth Layer posted:But there's Broad and Vick who at least in my opinoin were a complete waste of page space. Broad is a far less badass Ninefingers with literally no character development. He's a man with a violent past who wants to do better but can't get past his love for violence, and that's exactly who he is after three books too. Nothing interesting happens in his story and even as a POV character he's almost always close enough to other POV characters that his viewpoint doesn't add anything. I actually think he would have worked better without a point of view, at least that way there'd be some mystery about what motivates him and he'd maybe come off as more dangerous too. It's odd, Joe has done this type of character a lot, most notably with Logan and Shivers. Hell, Logan does it again as Lamb. But they are so much better than Broad. It's not just he's less badass, it's also that he's a henchman the entire time who just kind of flops into following whoever mostly recently appealed to his better or worse nature. So he's a less badass, less loyal Friendly if anything. Sure, not everyone can take off on adventures and most people are fine being followers, but they are not very interesting to read about.
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Sep 28, 2021 21:30
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It felt like Broad was basically Logen with a family, minus the semi-supernatural Berserker rage. Instead he just takes off his eyeglasses. I dunno, I felt like his perspective was sort of useful in the narrative just for showing certain necessary scenes. I don't find any of his chapters boring. I don't think Abercrombie has written a boring chapter in this trilogy. But I did find his arc fairly nonexistent, treading the same ground that had been trod before. Just "man of violence finds he's unable to escape violence. At least his family isn't dead."
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Sep 28, 2021 21:37
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Also, Rikke betrayed Leo; if Leo is the type of person whose going to hold, then act on that grudge, does she really think handing over Orso will make any difference in the end? If she were playing Real Politik and thinking about it strategically, Leo is no threat now, and won’t be for at least a couple of years. Her very best birthday play is seize the opportunity to get Orso to Sipani, where even if he never raises an army to retake the throne, he will constantly be a threat to Leo, and will tie up at least a part the Union military, which will have to remain in a place it could check a potential attempt by Orso and any of his allies in the Union to restore him Orso to the throne.
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Sep 28, 2021 21:53
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Ccs posted:It felt like Broad was basically Logen with a family, minus the semi-supernatural Berserker rage. Instead he just takes off his eyeglasses. See his family was one of the interesting elements about him and even had some character themselves, especially May in A Little Hatred trying to make sure he gets set up good for helping Savine. Then they just fade out of the books. In Wisdom of Crowds when Savine hands Broad the letter from his "family" it made me go oh that's right he does have a wife and daughter I wonder where they were this whole time.
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Sep 28, 2021 22:24
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I do think one of the themes of this is that people are constantly making poor decisions because they seem like a good idea at the time.
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Sep 29, 2021 05:28
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After reading the final chapter, I’m just wondering who the blonde girl that Rikke sees in her vision is meant to be. The black haired boy is obviously Calder’s son, but the girl is puzzling me, particularly because Calder’s son would presumably be used to bring the north back under Bayaz’s control and I’d have thought she’d be used for the same purpose in the Union, but she seems instead to be causing problems in the north. Not to mention that she’d probably have to be connected to the royal line in some way too.
Hemp Knight fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Sep 29, 2021 |
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Sep 29, 2021 13:33
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Its Hildi
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Sep 29, 2021 13:46
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Hemp Knight posted:After reading the final chapter, I’m just wondering who the blonde girl that Rikke sees in her vision is meant to be. The black haired boy is obviously Calder’s son, but the girl is puzzling me, particularly because Calder’s son would presumably be used to bring the north back under Bayaz’s control and I’d have thought she’d be used for the same purpose in the Union, but she seems instead to be causing problems in the north. Not to mention that she’d probably have to be connected to the royal line in some way too. Man she was literally introduced by name a chapter earlier and she's been prominently around for all 3 books
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Sep 29, 2021 17:54
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Broad was, I think, meant to be a commentary on addiction and how it damages and destroys a person. Except that he never actually has a bad ending. He gets accepted back by his family and he gets sent off again and again to indulge his addiction to violence and alcohol and is materially rewarded for it even as he continues to hate himself. Unless he's meant to be some sort of commentary on the potential for functional addicts in society I don't really understand what he was really meant to tell in terms of a narrative.
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Sep 29, 2021 23:41
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I was halfway expecting Broad to kill Savine after he found out that she wrote the letter. But nope - absolutely no consequences for her actions, and she goes right back to manipulating Broad into cracking skulls again. Pretty underwhelming character for sure.
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Sep 30, 2021 01:20
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My hunch is we'll see the effects in later books. May is my bet for a POV of her own in a later book or short story along with Vic and Glaward.
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Sep 30, 2021 01:21
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That last one would be a pretty new thing for the series, someone who starts the book off with power instead of gaining it near the end (and immediately regretting it)
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Sep 30, 2021 01:40
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So wait, does the third book reveal mean that Glotka whacked Jezal? It was heavily implied to be Bayaz, but...why? He had no agenda or grand plan in the works and Jezal was a housebroken puppet. That's some dark poo poo.
Chef Boyardeez Nuts fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 04:32
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:My hunch is we'll see the effects in later books. May is my bet for a POV of her own in a later book or short story along with Vic and Glaward. I think the only options for Vic are never seen again or blink and you'll miss it cameo in a future story. Anything else I worry might compromise her excellent story arc. I think this trilogy has flaws, particularly certain moments being too predictableRikke's allies returning being the most obvious example. Still, it was quite good. That predictably seems exacerbated by the fact we're all well familiar with the way Abercrombie writes and the kinds of ideas he's trying to convey at this point in his career. Narrative could have used some work but the writing is vastly improved from The Blade Itself trilogy. I think these books will seem a lot better in future rereads when the element of surprise doesn't seem as important.
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Sep 30, 2021 07:09
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The biggest letdown in the trilogy for me was when Steven Pacey didn't use Friendly's voice for the guy at Cardottis with the dice mask at the dice table. I would have liked a little subtle confirmation that dude landed right on his feet.
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Sep 30, 2021 16:38
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MrNemo posted:Broad was, I think, meant to be a commentary on addiction and how it damages and destroys a person. Except that he never actually has a bad ending. He gets accepted back by his family and he gets sent off again and again to indulge his addiction to violence and alcohol and is materially rewarded for it even as he continues to hate himself. Unless he's meant to be some sort of commentary on the potential for functional addicts in society I don't really understand what he was really meant to tell in terms of a narrative. I more or less agree with this but I don't think he got a happy ending, he seems totally miserable and that his behavior coming back from the war turned May into a Savine-esque money lender was a pretty depressing turn. He corrupted the only good thing he ever did in his life with his lovely actions. I don't think Brock had a lot to do narratively but his chapter at the end of the first act was probabaly my favorite bit in the new trilogy.
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Oct 1, 2021 02:08
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Still trying to figure how Joe squares "we're all puppets caught in a brutal web constructed by our financial masters" with "but oh no, collective policy of the masses will just lead to everything on fire, those idiots don't know what they're doing". Is it that we just need autocrats that are...more benevolent? One super smart Great Man who can make the hard choices but not be a oval office?
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Oct 1, 2021 13:53
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VagueRant posted:Still trying to figure how Joe squares "we're all puppets caught in a brutal web constructed by our financial masters" with "but oh no, collective policy of the masses will just lead to everything on fire, those idiots don't know what they're doing". Most of the competent, sane people who should've been running things were killed in Valbeck.
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Oct 1, 2021 13:59
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Everything was another plot by another terrible person working to beat the other terrible person, like another Magi fight. It wasn't really people uprising on their own. There's a glimmer of hope when Orso is about to retake the throne, wanting to become as just king as he could, but that gets hosed by a backstab. Which reminds me, having him use Corbyn soundbites really hit hard there, drat it Joe
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Oct 1, 2021 15:08
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Orso getting owned by circumstances beyond his control in increasingly grander ways was really funny though, definitely one of the strongest recurring themes of the trilogy
No Dignity fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Oct 2, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 17:35
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VagueRant posted:Still trying to figure how Joe squares "we're all puppets caught in a brutal web constructed by our financial masters" with "but oh no, collective policy of the masses will just lead to everything on fire, those idiots don't know what they're doing". Joe (or the story) posits that there are no benevolent Great Men, only various degrees of Huge Cunts playing games with each others. One of them had every sane and competent revolutionary leader killed, so that the insane and incompetent ones could run things into the ground.
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Oct 1, 2021 17:46
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On the whole I liked this book, but agree that it is among the weaker in the series. My biggest complaint is that the Burners were just insane violent fucks with absolutely no agenda or plan beyond violence and destruction for it's own sake. People absolutely do horrific poo poo during and following revolutions, but there is always some sort of rationalization behind it, no matter how bad. The leaders of every bloody purge in history didn't just wake up in the morning and go "oh boy here I go killing again" - although that was certainly often the result. The Breakers felt believable, as they actually tried to build something new, the Burners were just two dimensional cartoon villains. I also didn't like how the end revealed it was all just part of some 4d chess game played between rival Evil Schemers. I felt like this trilogy was all about how society was slipping out of the control of the likes of Bayaz, but nope, there was just a new Bayaz, this time in a wheelchair. Savine even literally says to Glokta that he became a new Bayaz in order to fight Bayaz. On the whole though, I enjoyed it and definitely wasn't bored. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Oct 2, 2021 |
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Oct 2, 2021 00:15
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Terror Sweat posted:Man she was literally introduced by name a chapter earlier and she's been prominently around for all 3 books Goons are not very good readers sometimes. There was arguments itt that maybe "Bayaz was doing the hard but necessary thing" after the first trilogy. Or look at people's reactions to Orzo getting hung.
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Oct 2, 2021 02:45
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Geisladisk posted:On the whole I liked this book, but agree that it is among the weaker in the series. My biggest complaint is that the Burners were just insane violent fucks with absolutely no agenda or plan beyond violence and destruction for it's own sake. People absolutely do horrific poo poo during and following revolutions, but there is always some sort of rationalization behind it, no matter how bad. My goon, the Khmer Rouge would like a word.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:00
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Relevant Tangent posted:My goon, the Khmer Rouge would like a word. At least half of the actual French Revolution.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:07
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Fingerless Gloves posted:Which reminds me, having him use Corbyn soundbites really hit hard there, drat it Joe
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Oct 2, 2021 09:53
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Geisladisk posted:On the whole I liked this book, but agree that it is among the weaker in the series. My biggest complaint is that the Burners were just insane violent fucks with absolutely no agenda or plan beyond violence and destruction for it's own sake. People absolutely do horrific poo poo during and following revolutions, but there is always some sort of rationalization behind it, no matter how bad. The leaders of every bloody purge in history didn't just wake up in the morning and go "oh boy here I go killing again" - although that was certainly often the result. The Breakers felt believable, as they actually tried to build something new, the Burners were just two dimensional cartoon villains. Err, hate to break it to you, but... "Red Terror" posted:The Pyatigorsk Cheka organized a "day of Red Terror" to execute 300 people in one day, and took quotas from each part of town. According to the Chekist Karl Lander, the Cheka in Kislovodsk, "for lack of a better idea", killed all the patients in the hospital. In October 1920 alone more than 6,000 people were executed.
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Oct 2, 2021 10:36
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VagueRant posted:Wait, what line was that? In the scene just after he gets free of the tower and just before Leo fucks him over, he makes a proclamation that includes 'For the many, not the few', one of Corbyns slogans. Fairly sure it's an explicit reference since there were a few instances of 'Make x great again' peppered through this trilogy.
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Oct 2, 2021 13:26
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Bold move of Jezal to rebuild the "Tower of Chains."
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Oct 3, 2021 01:07
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Fingerless Gloves posted:In the scene just after he gets free of the tower and just before Leo fucks him over, he makes a proclamation that includes 'For the many, not the few', one of Corbyns slogans. Fairly sure it's an explicit reference since there were a few instances of 'Make x great again' peppered through this trilogy. yeah, it is an explicit reference —- to star trek: the wrath of khan
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Oct 3, 2021 01:16
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How has this not been adapted for TV yet? You could absolutely do a season per book.
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Oct 6, 2021 02:42
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So Rikkes vision at the end suggests Hildi will grow up to be a John Rockefeller or Andrew Carnegie sort of figure?
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Oct 6, 2021 04:28
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Pron on VHS posted:So Rikkes vision at the end suggests Hildi will grow up to be a John Rockefeller or Andrew Carnegie sort of figure? Yeah. And then hopefully drive a big train over Leo. Maybe hire a Snidley Whiplash type to tie him to the train tracks.
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Oct 6, 2021 04:37
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Pron on VHS posted:So Rikkes vision at the end suggests Hildi will grow up to be a John Rockefeller or Andrew Carnegie sort of figure? Yeah, Bayaz is going to want to have a set of train tracks connecting him to the rest of the world. Not being able to get from point A to point B quickly is one of his few remaining vulnerabilities afaict.
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Oct 6, 2021 04:42
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Like you can trust any prophecy after that cocktease of an empty room.
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Oct 7, 2021 01:58
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