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Crab Dad posted:Wait hold up… you probably one of those guys who thinks everyone is David Mitchell. I'm not a milhist grog so at 1/300 scale all the difference I can make out is "small plane = fighter" and "big plane = bomber". I'll leave it to you to educate me on the finer differences between the spitfires made from recycled Yorkshire pots and London railings.
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Oct 3, 2021 18:41
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Z the IVth posted:I'm not a milhist grog so at 1/300 scale all the difference I can make out is "small plane = fighter" and "big plane = bomber". Sure. Spitfire wings round to a point and me109 wings slant to a flat end that’s about half as wide as the wing started. It’s super obvious from the top view like you’d be playing on a board.
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Oct 3, 2021 18:44
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lilljonas posted:I.... might just have spontaneously bought GW:s worst game, Dreadfleet, second hand. Because I think the ships are cool. Mantic's new Kings of War Armada game might fit the bill.
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Oct 3, 2021 19:04
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Z the IVth posted:I can tell a Thunderbolt from a Lightning from a Marauder. The great thing about sci-fi is all their silhouettes are completely different since none of them obey the laws of aerodynamics. GW's silhouettes within a faction are less distinguishable than real ones I think, and real ones are already hard to distinguish. They made the really baffling decision to make some of their planes with very different roles variants of each other but still sold in different $40 boxes, too. I'm glad GW has moved to friction-fit stands. The models I played with weren't that. Anyway I wasn't suggesting cardboard chits with NATO symbols (for a World War dogfighting game?). I'm mainly comparing it to games where the game comes with illustrated, labeled cards for all of the major planes for its time, or where you can buy a set of such cards for less than the cost of a single fighter box for AI. Maybe AI is super cheap in the UK, but elsewhere it's a $90 USD starter and $40-50 for a boxed set of four fighters or two bombers, at MSRP. It manages to be more expensive than even the already-overpriced Wings of Glory line, which has the advantage of not being married to one game that only exists until GW gets bored with it. I get the feeling you haven't looked at any other similar games. Aeronautica Imperialis just doesn't benefit from being tied to hyper-detailed, very expensive miniatures, on top of not being any great shakes as a game.
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Oct 3, 2021 21:42
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Cease to Hope posted:GW's silhouettes within a faction are less distinguishable than real ones I think, and real ones are already hard to distinguish. They made the really baffling decision to make some of their planes with very different roles variants of each other but still sold in different $40 boxes, too. Still don't get what you're going on about. I can imagine maybe getting the silhouettes of various flavours of Marauder bomber mixed up but c'mon, you're saying you can't tell the difference between a Thunderbolt, a Lightning and an Avenger? There's certainly a lot more different to them than the shape of the wingtips! They all have swept forward wings but that's about it. Cease to Hope posted:Maybe AI is super cheap in the UK, but elsewhere it's a $90 USD starter and $40-50 for a boxed set of four fighters or two bombers, at MSRP. It manages to be more expensive than even the already-overpriced Wings of Glory line, which has the advantage of not being married to one game that only exists until GW gets bored with it. There must be some pricing fuckery going on in your capitalist hellhole since in this one I'm getting. We still don't have food or fuel though so YMMV. Wings of Glory Starter with 4 minis - £50 Wings of Glory expansions with 1 mini - £8-£16 This is for minis which are of a similar quality to the hot wheels planes I played with as a kid. And the WoG prices are comparable to X-Wing which is the dogfighting game I have played, and this is before you have to hunt through the secondary market for 6 copies of Crack Shot. I'll never say GW make good rules, their rules are at best tolerable, but apart from overpriced character models their quality of their miniatures is worth the price. Nothing comes close.
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Oct 3, 2021 22:43
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You are confusing "detailed" for high quality. The models are fragile, have to be assembled like a model kit despite their scale, have to be stored as multiple pieces, and are only sold as sets of multiples of the same model. They don't even take advantage of being sold like this, because they often do not include multiple loadouts as variants on one sprue. There are plenty of competitors that don't have these negative qualities. Or you can buy very nice game cards that serve the same role for much cheaper, since all of these games are just using plane models as pawns anyhow.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:16
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Cease to Hope posted:Or you can buy very nice game cards that serve the same role for much cheaper, since all of these games are just using plane models as pawns anyhow. This is literally every miniatures game
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Oct 3, 2021 23:29
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Cease to Hope posted:You are confusing "detailed" for high quality. The models are fragile, have to be assembled like a model kit despite their scale, have to be stored as multiple pieces, and are only sold as sets of multiples of the same model. They don't even take advantage of being sold like this, because they often do not include multiple loadouts as variants on one sprue. For a miniature I would absolutely conflate "detail" with quality. You could reasonably lob a Wings of Glory model across a room and expect it to put a hole in the drywall but it would still be a poo poo model with no muddy details and a paint job applied in a Chinese sweatshop. The GW models being plastic aren't going to compare in durability but unless you're a toddler they are durable enough as gaming models. I also fail to understand what you mean by having different loadouts being absent from the box. You can build both Thunderbolt loadouts from the box. Same with lightnings and Avengers. The Marauders are different as the structure of the Destroyer is a radical departure from the norm. Also if my intention is to play with model planes then playing with cards defeats the purpose completely. Which brings me back to the original assertion, why bother having a discussion in a miniatures gaming thread if the miniatures are just pawns that can be substituted with cards or chits? You have grog games that way and Warmahordes over there.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:31
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I've never played a game of AI and I have no desire to because the game doesn't appeal to me but these planes look pretty good to me. Also if you are having more problems identifying AI craft from one another than historical planes, this is because you have probably been looking at historical planes for way longer. The AI planes all have radically more varied silhouettes than WW2 planes, because WW2 planes were constrained by things like physics and technology and so inevitably all look basically the same, while AI planes are not so constrained. The only planes that all look very same-y to me are the Tau ones. Also it is worthwhile to keep in mind that "I do not like these models" is a subjective opinion.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:38
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Geisladisk posted:This is literally every miniatures game No, it's not. Many miniatures games, and nearly all of GW's games, are using the miniatures to show the space the unit actually takes up, and the movement and interaction with terrain is very objective and representative (as opposed to relative and abstract). GW founders badly when they get away from that. Aeronautica Imperialis is a weak ripoff of Wings of War*, which is very much a game of relative positioning and abstract locations. Where your plane is in AI isn't representative of where it is in the imaginary world, but rather a representation of its relationship with other planes. (I'm not actually sure if it's ripping off WOW, or ripping off FFG X-Wing, which in turn owes a huge debt to WOW itself.) Because of this, the models mostly aren't in scale with the space they control nor the space between each other, nor are they really in scale with each other. A Mega-Bommer is a large, imposing miniature, but it doesn't take up more space in the game than a tiny Imperial shuttle. (But its huge, ungainly miniature proves a pain when you're trying to maneuver near it, despite not actually taking up more space in the game.) Contrast it with GW's other games, where a tank or a titan is a physically imposing obstacle roughly matching the presence of its miniature.
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Oct 3, 2021 23:49
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but AI ships take up the space denoted by their base, right? Almost every Warhammer miniature is on a base. The only ones that aren't are tanks. How is this fundamentally different from Warhammer, where the space taken up by the unit is denoted by it's base size? I played a game of 40k with a Imperial Knight today. Yeah, the model is pretty huge, but the model itself is only a part of the game in a very limited way - Only for determining LOS. What really determines how much space it takes up and controls is the base. Just like in AI. And it isn't surprising that AI has taken a similar route to modeling air combat as other popular air combat games. Just like bases and LOS are the norm for ground combat, more abstract distances and locations are the norm in air combat, because you are representing tiny (relative to the battlefield) things moving very fast. The sky is pretty big. The planes aren't actually taking up the space denoted by their models. You can't make a game that aims to model air combat, no matter how abstractly, using the same paradigm as ground combat.
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Oct 4, 2021 00:39
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Geisladisk posted:I played a game of 40k with a Imperial Knight today. Yeah, the model is pretty huge, but the model itself is only a part of the game in a very limited way - Only for determining LOS. That Knight is huge relative to a foot soldier, and its size matters a great deal for maneuvering and its relationship with terrain. This is not a "very limited" difference. As for AI being similar to other games, it's notable that it has relatively little to offer over the games it so closely resembles. It's not bad that it's a game of relative, abstract positioning! However, GW clearly has little experience making these sorts of games. So the models don't fit well, and the game itself is an uninspired copy. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 00:47
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Personally I wouldn't play most planegames because I don't give a poo poo if it isn't scifi
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Oct 4, 2021 02:18
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I'd be a lot more forgiving if AI took any advantage at all of being sci-fi! It's very bland and rooted in historical air combat.
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Oct 4, 2021 02:26
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Z the IVth posted:And the WoG prices are comparable to X-Wing which is the dogfighting game I have played, and this is before you have to hunt through the secondary market for 6 copies of Crack Shot. X-wing hasn't been that way for over 3 years. The 2nd edition fixed a lot of those problems. quote:I'll never say GW make good rules, their rules are at best tolerable, but apart from overpriced character models their quality of their miniatures is worth the price. Nothing comes close. I know this is subjective, but imo that's also not the case anymore, especially with the prevalence of resin printers. Hell, even GW uses resin printers for their 'display' models that they show off before the actual product is available. Even classic molded resin there are tons of people essentially operating out of a garage that are putting out models that rival GW's quality.
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Oct 4, 2021 02:54
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Floppychop posted:X-wing hasn't been that way for over 3 years. The 2nd edition fixed a lot of those problems. Coincidentally 3 years ago is when I burned out of X-wing and sold my stuff. I suspect many felt the same way and by all accounts Everyone always trots out the resin printers will kill GW story but running a printer, nevermind running one well enough to make minis of comparable quality to GW is a whole different hobby you have to invest into. Getting someone who's good to do it for you means your minis cost about the same at the end of the day so its apples and oranges really. Resin printers are IMO best for Epic and Warmaster because nothing else will give you that level of detail in that scale at grossly the same cost. I can pay 10p per finely printed 6mm marine or 10p for some globby bit of pewter that claims to be a hoplite. There are tons of garage kit companies putting out stuff that rivals GW's in quality but they are all also just as expensive. ArtelW charges €9 per figure, Raging Heroes do £5-6 infantry and so on.
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Oct 4, 2021 10:47
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Speaking of AI, if one wanted to get into Tau Air Caste for it, what should the first purchases be? The starter set featuring them isn't around anymore. Also what's a good way to build them initially?
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Oct 4, 2021 10:55
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Z the IVth posted:Coincidentally 3 years ago is when I burned out of X-wing and sold my stuff. I suspect many felt the same way and by all accounts I never said resin printers will kill GW, just that the quality is comparable, and the price of things printed with them keeps going down where GW prices are going up. The garage companies are also putting out kits that fill holes that GW refuses to fill for some reason, like eldar or guardsmen that aren't Cadians. Even companies like Mantic are getting better with each new kit and their stuff is ~1/3 the price. GW does make good models, but they're not the only option, and they're certainly not the best value for the price.
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Oct 4, 2021 12:42
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Floppychop posted:I never said resin printers will kill GW, just that the quality is comparable, and the price of things printed with them keeps going down where GW prices are going up. With current consumer models I don't think you'll be getting a big 28mm centerpiece model or vehicle printed for a price competitive with GW's, even high as their prices are now. 28mm stuff works out about the same for a similar level of quality at best and 6mm is definitely superior for the same price. I do feel you are somewhat disingenuous with your price comparisons here. GW characters are grossly overpriced and I'll buy that Mantic sell them for 1/3rd the price. For line infantry though they are maybe 50% of the price at best but closer to 25% on average. And their quality is on par with 90s GW. Anvil costs the same as GW but offers superior customisation. Raging Heroes costs the same as GW but has more to offer the titminiature connoisseur. Infinity charge more per figure for better quality so that's fair. There are cheap manufacturers out there but none of them can compare to GW in quality. My suspicion is that anyone who produces miniatures will actually look at GW pricing and realise that the market will bear those prices and price their product accordingly. I will challenge you to post an example of something which is on par with GW and is cheaper. I have looked and found many with either characteristic, but none with both.
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Oct 4, 2021 13:18
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Z the IVth posted:
From my experience (and I have only older less tits-out models from them) quality is lower than gws. There is a lot of fiddly bits and cleaning everything hurts soul
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Oct 4, 2021 13:55
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lol a lot of angry about a game hardly anyone plays. Here are MY thoughts on AI: It's expensive BUT you really don't need a lot to play the game. If you can not be a typical gamer and limit yourself to a single faction, you could get away with having a force for $200-ish. That's pretty good for a GW game, but it IS pretty pricey for a skirmish game in general, especially when you can play a game within the GW ecosystem like Warcry or WHU for under $60 (yes, there can be peripheral purchases like dice, but I'm just referring to buying enough models to play.) There isn't a lot to it - it's very much a beer and pretzels type game and, personally, I don't see it being a game that would get heavy rotation, unless you've got someone in your group who is really, really, really into planes. IMO, I would honestly rate AI as being just slightly above the Barnes and Noble games. It's an ok side game, but ultimately, it's just not that satisfying to play. As I've stated in the past, I feel the play space is too small for the game - it would have been nice for GW to offer a larger play surface. The $40+ is only a couple of hexes larger than the paper mat that comes with the starters. It would have been nice to see a 4x4 or a 4x3 board, just to get some extra maneuver space before you're in combat. Ultimately though, nobody really plays the game, and that's the big factor in determining whether or not you should pick it up. If you're going to go hardcore and pick up everything because you love tiny planes that much and you want to be the guy who owns everything so they can get their friends to play, go for it. If nobody else is interested though, it doesn't matter if the game is both awesome and extremely low cost. I've got a fairly large regular group, and only three people (including myself) have bought in, and I've only ever seen two games played since it dropped, and both were before the Skies of Fire set. I'm picking up stuff because I can afford it, but, honestly, I don't know if my set will ever see the table since the interest and motivation just isn't there within the group. Z the IVth posted:I also fail to understand what you mean by having different loadouts being absent from the box. You can build both Thunderbolt loadouts from the box. Same with lightnings and Avengers. The Marauders are different as the structure of the Destroyer is a radical departure from the norm.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:20
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I tried Raging Heroes once, never again. Quality is not even close to GW's and a lot of the figures are flat, like really flat.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:31
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Z the IVth posted:With current consumer models I don't think you'll be getting a big 28mm centerpiece model or vehicle printed for a price competitive with GW's, even high as their prices are now. 28mm stuff works out about the same for a similar level of quality at best and 6mm is definitely superior for the same price. I can find stl's of vehicles comparable or superior to GWs for $10-20 and then print it myself for a couple dollars worth of resin. If I want someone else to print it, it does get costly because large prints take so long.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:32
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chin up everything sucks posted:I can find stl's of vehicles comparable or superior to GWs for $10-20 and then print it myself for a couple dollars worth of resin. If I want someone else to print it, it does get costly because large prints take so long. Don't forget to factor in the cost of your own time and capital. Material cost for minis was always a small part of the overall cost even when you consider metal which has to be the priciest raw material.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:04
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Z the IVth posted:Don't forget to factor in the cost of your own time and capital. Material cost for minis was always a small part of the overall cost even when you consider metal which has to be the priciest raw material. My own time on an STL is pretty minimal. 10 minutes to run an application to add supports for printing, 10-15 minutes swapping out parts that are done or adding more resin to the printer. Cleanup of the model is the longest part, and that's about the same as cleaning mold lines off of a injection-mold model. The biggest investment is actually the "if I spend time printing X, that is time I can't use for printing Y". The big pain is actually just having space where I can run the printer and not worry about the fumes. I usually run it overnight in the bathroom with the fan on.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:11
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chin up everything sucks posted:The biggest investment is actually the "if I spend time printing X, that is time I can't use for printing Y". My thought was - if i spent the same amount of time printing stuff for sale how much would I have made? Depending on what you want it may or may not be a factor. If you want a GW Land Raider then it will work out more profitable to just spend 24 hours printing BDSM Catgirl minis to sell online and buy a GW product than to spend 48 hours printing your own. Of course if what you want is bespoke or only exists in stl form then that right there is the biggest reason to get a printer. If I had the space to run a printer (I wish I did but can't because toxic fumes and a baby won't go down well with the wife) I would get one just to print the cool poo poo out there, not to "GW, but cheaper." Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 18:31
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Z the IVth posted:With current consumer models I don't think you'll be getting a big 28mm centerpiece model or vehicle printed for a price competitive with GW's, even high as their prices are now. For $19 I can print 3x 28mm Rhinos in 7 hours fwiw  Fumewise since the thread seems worried about them, they are listed as a possible respiratory irritant on the sds. The fumes won't give you cancer or make you mutate, they may smell weird or make you cough if you are unlucky. goodness fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 20:03
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goodness posted:For $19 I can print 3x 28mm Rhinos in 7 hours fwiw I've been researching resin 3D printers because I think I'm going to bite the bullet and saw a video where they took air quality readings during a few print jobs and formaldehyde and particulate counts were right around what the EPA says is the limit for 3-year continuous exposure and well below limits for 24 hour exposure. I mean, I'm making sure I have a good ventilated area away from my normal working and living areas, but I guess I don't have to be hyper paranoid??
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Oct 4, 2021 20:12
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Cthulu Carl posted:I've been researching resin 3D printers because I think I'm going to bite the bullet and saw a video where they took air quality readings during a few print jobs and formaldehyde and particulate counts were right around what the EPA says is the limit for 3-year continuous exposure and well below limits for 24 hour exposure. I mean, I run an air purifier and keep a window open just because it smells like poo poo, whether it's going to kill me or not
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Oct 4, 2021 20:16
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Just use the proper protective gear, and it won't be a problem. The fumes gives me a migraine, and it smells terrible, so a respirator is a must.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:20
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The issue with liquid resin isn’t that it gives you cancer, it is that it can build up in your system and give you a sensitivity. People who worked with liquid resin in an industrial capacity and didn’t wear proper PPE can develop a sensitivity that makes it impossible for them to continue working with it (usually, blinding headaches at the smell).
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Oct 4, 2021 20:20
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:I mean, I run an air purifier and keep a window open just because it smells like poo poo, whether it's going to kill me or not The fun thing is, I already have a good fan setup in most of the rooms I spend a significant amount of time (or would set a printer up in) because my dog likes to get stomach issues that lead to some of the most noxious farts I've ever smelled.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:22
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:The issue with liquid resin isn’t that it gives you cancer, it is that it can build up in your system and give you a sensitivity. People who worked with liquid resin in an industrial capacity and didn’t wear proper PPE can develop a sensitivity that makes it impossible for them to continue working with it (usually, blinding headaches at the smell). Yeah the liquid is a different matter from the fumes. Avoid getting it on your skin, and definitely avoid exposing any spilled on your skin to UV light before getting it off. That will cause burns.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:23
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In the worst case scenario you get ARDS and die in ITU Covid-style. It's far more likely you become sensitized to it and you can't approach if ever again without full PPE. Having uncured resin on your skin will give you a nasty rash. [ASK] Me how I know. Also 3 Rhinos on a build plate is impossible for the Elegoo Mars which seem to be SOP for most hobbyist printers.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:28
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I'm bummed to have missed a few months, but excited to find out Forest Dragon didn't cancel their patreon after all. They are the best maker of print your own tiny hams.goodness posted:For $19 I can print 3x 28mm Rhinos in 7 hours fwiw That huge printer materialised one day for free, along with the skills, knowledge and experience to run it? Re fumes chat I feel like you can only bank on getting one set of lungs, 3d printing isn't that good yet we can mass produce them, so a respirator isn't big ask when there's a big lag between using a hazardous substance and proving it causes damage.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:22
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Yes definitely wear all of your PPE whenever you're interacting with the machine or resin. I just don't wear one when I'm just in the same room as the printer and it's closed up.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:27
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goodness posted:For $19 I can print 3x 28mm Rhinos in 7 hours fwiw I was curious so I looked this up and your printer costs as much as a small car?
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Oct 4, 2021 22:35
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berzerkmonkey posted:There isn't a lot to it - it's very much a beer and pretzels type game and, personally, I don't see it being a game that would get heavy rotation, unless you've got someone in your group who is really, really, really into planes. IMO, I would honestly rate AI as being just slightly above the Barnes and Noble games. It's an ok side game, but ultimately, it's just not that satisfying to play. yeah. the whole discussion got sidetracked from the fact that, at its heart, there's just not a lot of game there. AI is ultimately shallow even by board game standards, which is at sharp odds with the amount of setup, cost, and space necessary to play it. if you like it or really like planes, ultimately you'll probably enjoy wings of war, bag the hun, blood red skies, or even x-wing 2e better. except for x-wing, those are all world war games rather than science fiction games, but GW does very little to take advantage of the setting anyway.
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Oct 4, 2021 22:50
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Z the IVth posted:I was curious so I looked this up and your printer costs as much as a small car? How do you know what printer they have?
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Oct 4, 2021 23:05
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jassi007 posted:How do you know what printer they have? Size of the build plate would be a decent starting point. Consumer resin printers have a tiiiiiny build area. One big enough to print 28mm scale Rhinos would not be cheap.
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Oct 4, 2021 23:17
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