(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Marching on Hanoi wasn't the objective. They wanted to gently caress up some VPA formations, then peace out, which is what they did. At best one could argue that it took the PLA longer, and with more casualties, than they had originally planned for, but the long-run objective of getting Vietnam to back-off from Cambodia was still accomplished in the end.
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Oct 4, 2021 01:26
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China's strategic goal was to remind Vietnam Soviet wasn't going to meaningfully help Cietnam when poo poo hits the fans, and also remind the rest of the Indochina peninsula the geopolitic reality. Pretty similar to the strategic goal of the recent Sino-India conflict IMO.
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Oct 4, 2021 01:37
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gradenko_2000 posted:Marching on Hanoi wasn't the objective. They wanted to gently caress up some VPA formations, then peace out, which is what they did. I mean, it didn't though, Vietnam stayed in Cambodia until the late 80s.
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Oct 4, 2021 01:46
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gentlemen please i think we can all agree that the only modern great armies are viet cong and the taliban and everyone else is bitchmade
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Oct 4, 2021 01:49
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Grapplejack posted:I mean, it didn't though, Vietnam stayed in Cambodia until the late 80s. ... which is when the conflict ended, with Vietnam conceding to all of China's demands with regards Cambodia
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Oct 4, 2021 01:49
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just say it’s a War of 1812 situation and call it a day
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Oct 4, 2021 02:14
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SahilBloom/status/1444702393892024321
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Oct 4, 2021 02:18
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Judakel posted:gentlemen please i think we can all agree that the only modern great armies are viet cong and the taliban and everyone else is bitchmade 
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Oct 4, 2021 02:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:Marching on Hanoi wasn't the objective. They wanted to gently caress up some VPA formations, then peace out, which is what they did. A lot of people seem to think Vietnam is some tiny insignificant backwater country. In 1979 Vietnam has about the same population as France and almost certainly one of, if not the largest, most well equipped and experienced army outside of the 5 security council permanent members, it was a far more formidable military power than Iraq was in 1990 and could easily have outright conquered at least Laos and Cambodia and probably Thailand as well. At the end of the offensive phase of the war the PLA had a clear path to Hanoi and could have marched on it if they wanted. As it was the destruction of large swathes of industrial infrastructure in the north alone pretty much crippled Vietnam's ability to wage offensive wars for most of the next decade.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:07
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T H E C O A L T H O
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Oct 4, 2021 03:09
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Throatwarbler posted:A lot of people seem to think Vietnam is some tiny insignificant backwater country. In 1979 Vietnam has about the same population as France and almost certainly one of, if not the largest, most well equipped and experienced army outside of the 5 security council permanent members, it was a far more formidable military power than Iraq was in 1990 and could easily have outright conquered at least Laos and Cambodia and probably Thailand as well. my favorite worldbuilding in the watchmen tv show is that vietnam is just a state now a full fifth of the countries population and congressional representatives just live on the opposite side of the planet no we dont need to get into details on how this is supposed to work the best part is it was in the comic too but as a complete throwaway line no one even remembered lol
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Oct 4, 2021 03:21
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gradenko_2000 posted:... which is when the conflict ended, with Vietnam conceding to all of China's demands with regards Cambodia it took them ten years and it ended well after Pol Pot had been ousted. China’s aim was to keep Pol Pot/PDK in power and they ultimately failed
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Oct 4, 2021 03:26
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indigi posted:it took them ten years and it ended well after Pol Pot had been ousted. China’s aim was to keep Pol Pot/PDK in power and they ultimately failed The Khmer Rouge was allowed to be part of the coalition government of Cambodia as part of China's demands
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Oct 4, 2021 03:41
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yes peace treaties often involve compromises from the losing parties
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Oct 4, 2021 03:42
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indigi posted:yes peace treaties often involve compromises from the losing parties It's not a compromise because Vietnam didn't get to water down China's demand with a counteroffer that they met in the middle with China got to dictate what Cambodia would look like after Vietnam left
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Oct 4, 2021 03:47
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China’s initial offer that they went to war over was “leave pol pot alone” idk how the end result isn’t a compromise
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Oct 4, 2021 03:48
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As with many Deng related issue, the more time passes the more he's proven right. That includes the war with vietnam. Deng didnt care for Pol Pot, and Pol pot didnt care for him. China didn't want an uppity Vietnam being their personal Cuba, an offensive buffer from the soviets. The entire incursions were to test the limits of the soviets defense pacts with Vietnam, how hard they could hit before they would clamp down. The clamping down never came, the soviets started to lose ground thanks in part to plucky Afghanistan and without the cover they provided they had cease to all aggressions. Thanks to chinas growing economic power they had to genuflect to them to restore their battered economy and now Vietnam is pretty much the embodiment of China's desire policies for the rest of the region. Complete dealignment/neutrality, they know that if they can achieve this the US cant isolate them and if you cant isolate them then victory is pretty much assured with a bit of time.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:00
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Considering Cambodia is most friendly country toward China out of the mainland SEA four countries, and will vote whatever China want in ASEAN summits, I would say China's military interference in SEA worked out pretty well.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:40
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I would have simply unified the continent into a single socialist superpower and wiped Westphalian capitalism off the map
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Oct 4, 2021 04:47
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Cao Ni Ma posted:As with many Deng related issue, the more time passes the more he's proven right. That includes the war with vietnam. I'll say I'm still cautiously optimistic that the economic poo poo was the right call in the end but buddying up with the great satan to help gently caress over the USSR was probably Not Good
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Oct 4, 2021 05:20
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Some Guy TT posted:my favorite worldbuilding in the watchmen tv show is that vietnam is just a state now a full fifth of the countries population and congressional representatives just live on the opposite side of the planet no we dont need to get into details on how this is supposed to work I mean that's almost what happened to the Philippines but America was too racist for it so they split them off into their own country instead Ignorant Hick posted:I'll say I'm still cautiously optimistic that the economic poo poo was the right call in the end but buddying up with the great satan to help gently caress over the USSR was probably Not Good A war of aggression in order to support an unpopular murderous dictator that also managed to spite the Soviets? I can't imagine anyone doing that
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Oct 4, 2021 05:47
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indigi posted:China’s initial offer that they went to war over was “leave pol pot alone” idk how the end result isn’t a compromise Pol Pot was already ousted by the time China invaded Vietnam. China wanted Vietnam to leave Cambodia entirely, from the very first peace talks in October 1979, and refused to entertain any negotiation that did not begin with full concession on that point. They got everything they wanted.  
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Oct 4, 2021 05:52
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Deng thought Gorbachev doing political reform before economic reform was "idiotic". How was Deng going to stop Soviet slowly entering collapse, he can't.
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Oct 4, 2021 08:44
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A big part of it was that the Soviets were attempting their own "containment strategy" versus China with Mongolia as a satellite, an alliance with the Vietnamese, a friendship with India and eventually a friendly government in Afganistan (that cost the Soviets dearly). The issue was obviously this strategy was eating resources the Soviets didn't have and beyond the war in Afganistan, the Soviets were often having to still devote resources to its border with China and efforts to keep their alliance up. In all honesty, by the 1970s, the Soviets should have figured out that the game was about resources and trade, and that the Union simply even with higher energy prices didn't have the resources to compete with the US breathing down their necks. Also, a lot of the defense spending during the 1980s (including the Buran and a bunch of other high profile projects) were indefensible. They had put themselves in a pretty vulnerable position by the mid-1980s. It seemed logical at the time...except for the budgetary side of things. I think the narratives surrounding the Sino-Vietnamese War are played up a bit due to the fact 1. while the Chinese army underperformed, they clearly hadn't been defeated in the frame of the conflict (it did put Vietnam on the backfoot in Cambodia) and 2. it was really no way comparable as something like the Indochine war or the American invasion... or even the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia. ---- As for Gorbachev's union treaty, it would have killed in the Soviet Union (including in name) and only pretty much left the army. It would have left open the door for economic experimentation and in all honestly would have fallen apart in a few years since there wouldn't have been much holding the structure together (in a way comparable to Yugoslavia) when put under pressure since republics could just leave it when they felt like it.
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Oct 4, 2021 09:50
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The US/global capitalist has the ability to manipulate the commodity price/oil price and oil price dropped more than half in the last 5 years before the Soviet collapse. Kind of weird that the Russians policy makers never developed supplemental theory dealing with common price "warfare".
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Oct 4, 2021 13:33
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the Chinese have invaded Taiwanese airspace again https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1444744954786557953?s=19 disgraceful https://twitter.com/MoNDefense/status/1444998286197231617?s=19
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Oct 4, 2021 13:47
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how can you invade your own airspace
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Oct 4, 2021 13:49
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Gotta the love the comments in the TERF media tweet never mention the very obscure fact that the TW ADIZ is so large it extends all the way into Anhui province.
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Oct 4, 2021 13:51
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stephenthinkpad posted:The US/global capitalist has the ability to manipulate the commodity price/oil price and oil price dropped more than half in the last 5 years before the Soviet collapse. Kind of weird that the Russians policy makers never developed supplemental theory dealing with common price "warfare". They did later, notice the alliance between the Russians and OPEC more recently. It is just during the 1980s, they clearly didn't really have a picture of what is going on and also honestly I wonder about Gorbachev, who honestly seemed to take a very passive role in terms of trade. ... Also, yeah those flights look like they are closer to the mainland than Taiwan itself.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:08
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in other news, some protesting indian farmers were killed in uttar pradesh under (to me) unclear circumstances, it looks like a government convoy might have just straight up rammed a crowd of farmers though: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/04/india-at-least-eight-dead-after-farm-protesters-attack-ministers-convoy https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/3/eight-including-four-farmers-killed-in-uttar-pradesh. some BJP (ruling party at the federal level and also in uttar pradesh where this happened) members were also killed. i suspect that one of the ramming vehicles was swarmed and its occupants killed after the ramming, but who knows! police have also arrested a general secretary from the opposition indian national congress party, specifically the secretary general for uttar pradesh, who also happens to be the sister of the current leader of the congress party and the daughter of the party's president. she was on her way to investigate the violence when police got her. https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/priyanka-gandhi-detained-at-sitapur-en-route-to-lakhimpur-kheri/ar-AAP7apx. i am sure everyone involved in this is having a good time.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:20
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Love how the media response to this has been running a story about an actor's kid smoking some pot. 60 whole grams of it.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:26
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lobster shirt posted:in other news, some protesting indian farmers were killed in uttar pradesh under (to me) unclear circumstances, it looks like a government convoy might have just straight up rammed a crowd of farmers though: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/04/india-at-least-eight-dead-after-farm-protesters-attack-ministers-convoy https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/3/eight-including-four-farmers-killed-in-uttar-pradesh. some BJP (ruling party at the federal level and also in uttar pradesh where this happened) members were also killed. i suspect that one of the ramming vehicles was swarmed and its occupants killed after the ramming, but who knows! Not really related to this news. Road rage is serious business in India. Since India has severe lacking of toilet facilities, kids like to poo poo on the side of the road. If a truck driver run over a kid in a remote village, he usually doesn't stop and drive straight to the nearby police station. Because if you stop, you have a high chance to be killed by the villagers on the spot and the truck torched. A distinct detail I remember from Steve Coll's Grand Trunk Road.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:34
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XMNN posted:the Chinese have invaded Taiwanese airspace again https://twitter.com/justcurious1313/status/1445019592015810564 ADIZ nuts
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Oct 4, 2021 15:37
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Confused as to which Soviets are doing air shows, recently.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:46
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Don't these videos usually end up being a remote controled model plane? They do look cool though, so I can see why they get shared.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:51
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Is that plane full size or model size? I legit can't tell.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:03
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ShallNoiseUpon posted:Confused as to which Soviets are doing air shows, recently. https://twitter.com/YEASTY_COMMIE/status/1291298519568048128
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Oct 4, 2021 16:06
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I had to explain to my coworkers what the ADIZ and told them not to worry about it unless china comes within like 50 miles of taiwan or whatever.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:38
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2SSR
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Oct 4, 2021 16:39
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| # ? May 24, 2024 19:38 |
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USSR 2: The Curse of Trotsky's Gold
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Oct 4, 2021 16:56
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