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fart simpson posted:why bring that up? it’s literally whataboutism in the worst sense and the guy said nothing about chinese media at all I have to admit I find this quite disingenuous from someone who posts in the thread that regularly engages in genocide whataboutism, but if you genuinely feel that contrasting journalistic ethics between east and west in a discussion of media bias in the China thread is a really bad faith move then I can only apologise.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:55
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Sedisp posted:It's really hard to criticize socialist countries press decisions without acknowledging US interference. A big draw back of command economies is it is incredibly difficult to counter foreign propaganda interests as you can't loot public services and funnel it to an alphabet agency as easily as a capitalist economy so often the smart move is to not bother and just do a big ol no non state approved press. Can you elaborate on this? I don't find it hard at all to criticize any country — socialist or not — that jails journalists and press freedom activists and has Nobel peace prize winners die in prison. And I can't really follow the argument in your second sentence about command economies not being able to fund intelligence (?) agencies.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:55
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Megillah Gorilla posted:It was in retaliation for the Australian government saying genocide is bad. Australian coal was never used for power generation.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:47
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Australian coal was never used for power generation.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:01
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I feel like the term "mainstream media" was popularized by Fox constructing its narrative about how blanketly nearly every other news outlet is somehow biased so that Fox is the only one you can trust, and pulling you into that Fox bubble, so I feel inherently distrustful of people making these big claims about how every news source can't be trusted, especially if they can't provide usable alternatives. Tainted data seems like it'd have to be better than just no data at all. And y'know, China itself still heavily restricts certain media topics from ever being discussed or acknowledged, and I'm not even sure if you can officially know the full list of forbidden media topics, since the whole point of forbidding them was to make sure people wouldn't know them. They're still regularly cracking down on sources within its control referencing the time that they murdered a bunch of people for publicly demanding democracy back in 1989. It does seem like for now there's a lot of speculation over how exactly China's new media policies will turn out after they get implemented, since it's hard to say what counts as what with an inherently subjective policy, how much it'll be enforced, and whether the Chinese public will even adhere to the policies or crop up so many illegal violations that they can't all be cracked down on. Potentially the government could even listen to public outcry (if there is a significant amount) and moderate its policy. You never really know with autocracies, because the decisions are made behind closed doors with theoretically no mechanisms for public input. In Other China news, https://twitter.com/MoNDefense/status/1443883866171740165
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Oct 4, 2021 16:26
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With America turning its head inwards we will definitely see Taiwain challenged by China. My wonder is will this challenge just be ignored and turn into a full fledged Invasion with the US giving some lip service to the taiwanese military and lying about how they "won't give in" as we boat back to hawaii
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Oct 4, 2021 16:42
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I don't know what will happen, it's scary as hell. I hope we don't abandon Taiwan, though. They're a vibrant democracy and the world should stand unified with them against the CCP's dystopian authoritarianism. Imperial aggression isn't acceptable, no matter who is doing it.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:46
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And they sent 26 the day after. As someone living in Taiwan I hope it's all Golden Week bravado and bluster.
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Oct 4, 2021 16:57
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My bad, I just remembered that it was not a significant enough to effect power production. https://www.worldometers.info/coal/china-coal/ Import of Australian coal annually looks to be between 100-300 million metric tons depending on year, annual consumption of coal in China is between 4-5 billion tons. Even with the higher 300 figure (of which about half is used for thermal), that's less than 3% used for electrical generation. I don't get how that article is claiming Australia is supplying 57% of China's thermal coal. Maybe 57% of its imported coal. GlassEye-Boy fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 17:34
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GlassEye-Boy posted:My bad, I just remembered that it was not a significant enough to effect power production. India picked up the slack almost immediately, that's probably why. From what I can tell, they even started buying Australian coal themselves so they could on-sell it to their usual customers to cover the gap in the volume which was now going to China. Which is some brilliant manoeuvring on India's part. Also yeah, the article was talking about imports specifically. I wouldn't want to even imagine what 4 billion tonnes of coal shipping would look like. EDIT: some crude googling suggest that would be half of all the dry cargo shipped in the entire world. Our lovely ports would implode trying to keep up with that. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 17:58
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:With America turning its head inwards we will definitely see Taiwain challenged by China. My wonder is will this challenge just be ignored and turn into a full fledged Invasion with the US giving some lip service to the taiwanese military and lying about how they "won't give in" as we boat back to hawaii In what world is America turning its head inward? We’re not magically isolationist just because we’re no longer in an active war for the first time in 20 years.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:01
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:I'm not even sure how to respond to this. When countries with multicoloured flags do crimes, that's capitalist alphabet soup organizations. When the Narodny Kommissariat Vnustyelikh Dyel deported my girlfriend's whole family to Kazakhstan while chasing kazakhs out of their own country to ethnically cleanse the place, that was just western lies. A socialist country would never do crimes. Especially in Central Asia.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:11
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Sedisp posted:It's really hard to criticize socialist countries press decisions without acknowledging US interference. A big draw back of command economies is it is incredibly difficult to counter foreign propaganda interests as you can't loot public services and funnel it to an alphabet agency as easily as a capitalist economy so often the smart move is to not bother and just do a big ol no non state approved press. Yeah this is just blatantly false. The KGB and similar were some of the most well funded, sophisticated and successful intelligence operations on the planet; they had propaganda for days.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:15
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:In what world is America turning its head inward? We’re not magically isolationist just because we’re no longer in an active war for the first time in 20 years. The guns of the GWOT are turning inwards. The post January 6th surveillance package proved that.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:17
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I believe the only real purpose Taiwan serves American interests is to just provoke China and certainly not valuable enough to spark a hot war with China if they call our bluff. In terms of trade alone with the US China dwarfs Taiwan. As far as I'm aware the only semi unique thing Taiwan can claim is that it houses a a few of the only factories producing high end microchips but even in the event of a hostile takeover from the mainland you would still assume lines of production and such would stay open. I just don't really see any reason why America should interfere in domestic Chinese policy.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:22
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Terminal autist posted:I believe the only real purpose Taiwan serves American interests is to just provoke China and certainly not valuable enough to spark a hot war with China if they call our bluff. In terms of trade alone with the US China dwarfs Taiwan. 1) It’s not just “a few”, Taiwan is basically single handedly making the world’s high end electronics run now, and for the time being until other places scale up. 2) it’s not domestic politics because Taiwan is an independent country, and protecting the most robust democracy in Asia from takeover by an authoritarian one is decidedly not interfering in domestic politics. 3) even aside from these if you’re talking about realpolitik and purely military concerns, from the US perspective having a place like Taiwan where in the future you could in short order use for military purposes against your rival power is incredibly valuable, and if anything this is as likely the real reason China is as concerned with Taiwan as it is.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:36
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Terminal autist posted:I believe the only real purpose Taiwan serves American interests is to just provoke China and certainly not valuable enough to spark a hot war with China if they call our bluff. In terms of trade alone with the US China dwarfs Taiwan. Uh this seems like a bonkers way of viewing a nations/peoples sovereignty and right to self-determination. I am pretty sure it isn't about Taiwan having a "purpose", its about Taiwan being a free and democratic society who deserve protection from wars of unprovoked aggression from hostile authoritarian regimes? They could have zero economic value, they should still be protected. It is merely convenient that they exist in a location to contain a hostile expansionistic authoritarian; they wouldn't need protection otherwise. e: Beaten.
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Oct 4, 2021 18:40
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Sedisp posted:It's really hard to criticize socialist countries press decisions without acknowledging US interference. A big draw back of command economies is it is incredibly difficult to counter foreign propaganda interests as you can't loot public services and funnel it to an alphabet agency as easily as a capitalist economy so often the smart move is to not bother and just do a big ol no non state approved press. If this were true... why would it be true? It seems to me that, in a command economy, it would be much easier to redirect resources to propaganda, rather than "loot and funnel" it.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:09
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LimburgLimbo posted:2) it’s not domestic politics because Taiwan is an independent country, and protecting the most robust democracy in Asia from takeover by an authoritarian one is decidedly not interfering in domestic politics. The second point is fair but I'd still say that the independence of Taiwan is more of a spectrum or a vibe as the kids say. For the third, I think we have to view all of American foreign policy through the most cynical realpolitik lens possible. We do business and ally with a majority of the most evil bastards imaginable and the only time human rights become a concern is when we can for lack of a better word virtue signal about it. Raenir Salazar posted:Uh this seems like a bonkers way of viewing a nations/peoples sovereignty and right to self-determination. I am pretty sure it isn't about Taiwan having a "purpose", its about Taiwan being a free and democratic society who deserve protection from wars of unprovoked aggression from hostile authoritarian regimes? They could have zero economic value, they should still be protected. It is merely convenient that they exist in a location to contain a hostile expansionistic authoritarian; they wouldn't need protection otherwise. The presupposition here is that the US military is responsible to guarantee Taiwan Independence and it is most certainly not. The US is not the world police and has a terrible record at really helping anyone as the result of an invasion.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:12
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Terminal autist posted:The presupposition here is that the US military is responsible to guarantee Taiwan Independence and it is most certainly not. The US is not the world police and has a terrible record at really helping anyone as the result of an invasion. The US has a unique responsibility to defending other Democracies yes, its part of the agreements underpinning the United Nations and Breton-Woods new world post-war order. But your original argument itself presupposes "realpolitical" reasonings; when the US under other paradigms, such as international liberalism, has a moral obligation. The US has had some decent successes, WW2, the first gulf war, the Korean war; the Balkans seemed to have turned out alright. But even if the US never succeeded at all at any point in its history I don't think this implies that they shouldn't keep trying.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:20
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Raenir Salazar posted:The US has a unique responsibility to defending other Democracies yes, its part of the agreements underpinning the United Nations and Breton-Woods new world You're just defending empire but one that was smart enough wrap up the crushing reality of it with lovely ideas and pretty words. I'll stand by and restate that the American military has never acted under primary motivation of a morality in regards to any military action and if it could even be viewed that way it was incidental to the primary motivation to advance and solidify american empire and hegemon. Also the idea that democracies have some sort of inherent goodness to them is simply not true. Look at Israel "the only democracy in the middle east" one of or if not the most evil and repressive government and yet supporting them is one of the few bipartisan issues thats agreed upon in the US. Enough about other lovely countries in the china thread though https://twitter.com/MoNDefense?ref_...ingawful.com%2F Look at the second picture, does the air defense perimeter of Taiwan actually include a large chunk of the mainland?
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Oct 4, 2021 19:35
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Terminal autist posted:I just don't really see any reason why America should interfere in domestic Chinese policy. Good idea. China should not interfere with domestic Taiwanese policy as well.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:48
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Terminal autist posted:You're just defending empire but one that was smart enough wrap up the crushing reality of it with lovely ideas and pretty words. I'll stand by and restate that the American military has never acted under primary motivation of a morality in regards to any military action and if it could even be viewed that way it was incidental to the primary motivation to advance and solidify american empire and hegemon. You're saying a lot of irrelevant things in order to deflect away from the main criticisms of your argument with gish gallop. The fact is Taiwan is (a) an independent country which you characterized instead as a "domestic affair" and (b) a democracy while China is not. (c) The US has pledged to defend Taiwan if China tries to settle the issue with force and generally I think most reasonable people would prefer to live in a world where peaceful prospering democracies can rely on the most powerful democracy in the world to defend them. Your words have all the credibility of someone who doesn't care what happens.
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Oct 4, 2021 19:55
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We've seen just over the past year what's happened to Hong Kong's previously flourishing democracy. It's very grim.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:00
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Terminal autist posted:You're just defending empire but one that was smart enough wrap up the crushing reality of it with lovely ideas and pretty words. I'll stand by and restate that the American military has never acted under primary motivation of a morality in regards to any military action and if it could even be viewed that way it was incidental to the primary motivation to advance and solidify american empire and hegemon. When has a military acted purely for moral reasons?
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Oct 4, 2021 20:10
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How are u posted:We've seen just over the past year what's happened to Hong Kong's previously flourishing democracy. It's very grim. This is a really good point about the legitimacy of democracies who ever has the bigger gun at the end of the day is the only legitimate power source. I think were going to see a similar situation with Taiwan within the next decade or so probabaly a little bit more rigorous and firm than the Hong Kong situation but it will still get folded into China proper.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:10
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Terminal autist posted:This is a really good point about the legitimacy of democracies who ever has the bigger gun at the end of the day is the only legitimate power source. I think were going to see a similar situation with Taiwan within the next decade or so probabaly a little bit more rigorous and firm than the Hong Kong situation but it will still get folded into China proper. Well hopefully not! I certainly don't agree with that political philosophy, and I hope you don't either. Democracies should stand together against anti-democratic forces. We don't have to live in a world where might makes right.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:12
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SlothfulCobra posted:Tainted data seems like it'd have to be better than just no data at all. This doesn't seem accurate at all. "This data implies that vaccines don't work" vs "no data about vaccines at all" makes the first one worse! It's actively saying "this good thing is bad". How are u posted:We don't have to live in a world where might makes right. We don't have to, but unfortunately we will as long as the wealthy profit from it. Like, ultimately a lot of our argumentation and so on does come down to violence. It's just that there have always been levels of divide between the action of "we will topple this government because US fruit executives need more stock" and the rhetoric of "we are the only lever by which democracy can flourish" has increasingly come away. Back when some nameless ghoul told reporters "we have the dimensions of an empire" they were tearing away any sense of moral legitimacy for how the USA, and hell whacking great chunks of western Europe, could act. It has never (and judging by recent actions) will never be restored. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 20:13
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How are u posted:We don't have to live in a world where might makes right. I would much prefer if we didnt but we certainly do and America is probably the biggest proponent of this philosophy. I just don't think the possible extermination of the human race is worth it to fight for the political system of people halfway across the globe.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:16
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Australian coal was never used for power generation. What the gently caress is this poo poo This is... The wrongest thing I have ever read. eta content: the widespread brown/blackouts across the Chinese Northeast and in key industries (aluminium smelting, glassmaking, etc) is 100% related to coal prices. They are trying to convert generation to lesser quality Mongolian/Indian/Russian coal, but they can't get enough of that either, and there are also new environmental standards that kicked in in 2021 that this dirtier coal is exacerbating. Australian coal not going to China right now is significantly impacting Chinese energy generation Franks Happy Place fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 20:46
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Terminal autist posted:I would much prefer if we didnt but we certainly do and America is probably the biggest proponent of this philosophy. I just don't think the possible extermination of the human race is worth it to fight for the political system of people halfway across the globe. How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:04
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I find it hard to argue that the American system has any legitimacy post-covid or even post-Trump (inter-Trump?)
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Oct 4, 2021 21:06
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poll plane variant posted:I find it hard to argue that the American system has any legitimacy post-covid or even post-Trump (inter-Trump?) Welp, pack it in boys, time to give up and become members of the Chinese communist party, democracy has officially failed according to this guy.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:08
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poll plane variant posted:I find it hard to argue that the American system has any legitimacy post-covid or even post-Trump (inter-Trump?) two things bad... same time???
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Oct 4, 2021 21:10
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How are u posted:We've seen just over the past year what's happened to Hong Kong's previously flourishing democracy. It's very grim. I mean yeah HK not being allowed self determination et al sucks but it was never really a flourishing democracy in a meaningful sense. It was a vestigial British colonial state then it was handed over with literally a date when it would stop being a separate system and become part of whatever mainland China was.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:29
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:two things bad... same time??? Yeah this is pretty much the case, the US system of self-destructive individualism has become such an obvious joke that you can't hold it up as some brave defender of anything except your right to die of a preventable disease. Saying that the US is some bastion of democracy now is even more absurd than it ever was.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:31
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LimburgLimbo posted:I mean yeah HK not being allowed self determination et al sucks but it was never really a flourishing democracy in a meaningful sense. It was a vestigial British colonial state then it was handed over with literally a date when it would stop being a separate system and become part of whatever mainland China was. Sure, none of which changes the fact that democracy in Hong Kong has been stamped out with a vengeance. It only highlights how important it is to stand by the Taiwanese people, and with democracy worldwide.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:32
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Terminal autist posted:As far as I'm aware the only semi unique thing Taiwan can claim is that it houses a a few of the only factories producing high end microchips but even in the event of a hostile takeover from the mainland you would still assume lines of production and such would stay open. I just don't really see any reason why America should interfere in domestic Chinese policy. It's a critical strategic resource for the United States. If China decided to cut the US off from microchips, there would be no new iphones for years. No consoles at christmas. No new graphics in video games. The US would quickly implode. Any China Watcher knows that's the real reason that China is restricting video games; they are trying to wean their population off the dopamine teat in order to prevent mass violence and despair. Today's Facebook outage is a test run for this as well. The Gaming Wars are literally just around the corner and our leaders don't see it coming.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:34
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LimburgLimbo posted:I mean yeah HK not being allowed self determination et al sucks but it was never really a flourishing democracy in a meaningful sense. It was a vestigial British colonial state then it was handed over with literally a date when it would stop being a separate system and become part of whatever mainland China was. Has there been any studies done about how the material circumstances for people in Hong Kong has changed? I'm sure its way more 1984 esque but how does that translate to housing prices, rent, food availability, wages etc.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:40
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poll plane variant posted:Yeah this is pretty much the case, the US system of self-destructive individualism has become such an obvious joke that you can't hold it up as some brave defender of anything except your right to die of a preventable disease. Saying that the US is some bastion of democracy now is even more absurd than it ever was. The US Army is just as capable now of breaking any other military around the globe over its knees as its always has been. The US doesn't need to have a perfect system to have the moral high ground in regards to a literally communist country invading another country.
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Oct 4, 2021 21:43
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