|
Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Black Beauty |
|
2 | 1.06% |
| A Talking Pony!?! |
|
4 | 2.13% |
| Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor |
|
117 | 62.23% |
| War Horse |
|
11 | 5.85% |
| Mr. Hands |
|
54 | 28.72% |
| Total: | 188 votes | ||
|
Smeef posted:I think that we've gone a little overboard on entry quarantine requirements and 'ambush' quarantines (I don't like the term, but I'll use it for lack of a better one). 21 days and 8 PCRs for fully vaccinated arrivals seems excessive and more about discouraging travel than preventing cases. If that's the goal, then fine, but that should be the stated goal instead of claiming that cases are slipping through multiple PCRs and 14 days of quarantine when that has never been documented to have happened. The ambush quarantines are brutal, too. A single case in a building means the entire building gets shipped off. Buildings here are loving enormous and can house many hundreds if not thousands of people. Quarantine camps are abominable and have caused outbreaks and other health issues. I think these approaches are excessive because I've seen no evidence that previously lighter policies led to cases. As mentioned, the outbreaks were due to loopholes that would not have been closed by longer days and were solved without 'ambush' quarantines. Despite what you say here I like the sound of these ambush quarantines for Australia not gonna lie. Make sure we build nice enough facilities, ensure jobs, cover wages, support or quarantine dependents based on exposure, and hell maybe even add in a payment to encourage compliance. You can say it's excessive but I'm looking at HK and mainland China using ambush lockdowns unlike us and they're winning the battle unlike us.
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:49 |
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Yeah it's really frustrating, because with the vaccine having something like 80-90% effectiveness even against delta, in theory we should be able to reach zero covid with much lighter interventions than were necessary last year, but it seems the powers that be decided the vaccine was an excuse to let her rip, and now 2000 Americans died again yesterday, a 9/11 every 18 hours. 80-90%? The Texas prison outbreak gives us something like 50% for Moderna and 10-15% for Pfizer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:17
|
|
|
poll plane variant posted:80-90%? The Texas prison outbreak gives us something like 50% for Moderna and 10-15% for Pfizer. That's a pretty certain claim for something so recent, has there been a more in depth look into it beyond initial reports that also factored in actual NPI compliance and how conditions tend to be in US prisons?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:19
|
|
|
For a typical population and somewhat recent-ish vaccination 80-90% prevention against infection is a reasonable estimate. For Ontario over the last week a full round of vaccines (mostly Pfizer / Moderna) were 86% effective against infection.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:21
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:That's a pretty certain claim for something so recent, has there been a more in depth look into it beyond initial reports that also factored in actual NPI compliance and how conditions tend to be in US prisons? If you're making claims about the efficacy of the vaccine alone, all you really need is the attack rate by vaccine status, it's essentially a laboratory mimicking American conditions of constant exposure to unvaxxed infected people (in this case, the guards) without any NPIs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:22
|
|
|
enki42 posted:For a typical population and somewhat recent-ish vaccination 80-90% prevention against infection is a reasonable estimate. For Ontario over the last week a full round of vaccines (mostly Pfizer / Moderna) were 86% effective against infection. That seems shockingly effective compared to anything else I've seen - do you mean only 14% of vaccinated people were infected in that period?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:23
|
|
|
poll plane variant posted:That seems shockingly effective compared to anything else I've seen - do you mean only 14% of vaccinated people were infected in that period? I mean specifically the rate of cases per 100K for the eligible unvaccinated population vs. the fully vaccinated population was 86% lower for the fully vaccinated population (unvaccinated had an average of 11.3 cases per 100K and vaccinated had 1.52). I would imagine the effectiveness in the US would be lower due to people being vaccinated earlier on average (so more waning), a lot of our population having an increased gap between doses (which may increase effectiveness), and just a much lower prevalence of cases in general. enki42 fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Oct 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:28
|
|
|
Doctor Butts posted:One of the places I work as is mandating we're all vaccinated by December. That's awesome. I was vaccinated as soon as I was allowed. The Clear app is fine and safe to use. They're likely doing it because using scannable ID software is a lot easier than putting together their own ad-hoc vaccination registration program.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:28
|
|
|
enki42 posted:I mean specifically the rate of cases per 100K for the eligible unvaccinated population vs. the fully vaccinated population was 86% lower for the fully vaccinated population (unvaccinated had an average of 11.3 cases per 100K and vaccinated had 1.52). The Kaiser study has them at 47% at 5 months, these numbers are genuinely remarkable and incredibly different from the US experience.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:30
|
|
|
poll plane variant posted:That seems shockingly effective compared to anything else I've seen - do you mean only 14% of vaccinated people were infected in that period? Why do people keep thinking vaccination efficiency numbers work like this? If I claimed cranberry juice works as a vaccine for cancer and then a report showed cranberry juice had 0% efficiency as a vaccine for cancer that 0% would not mean 0% of people or 100% of people got cancer. It would mean there was a 0% cancer rate between people that had and had not drank the juice.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:47
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:Thanks. I'm know little enough about the science and math of detection tests that I realize what seems to be a simple question probably has a lot of complexity and nuance in any answer. Even knowing that, "Yes, false negatives are a statistically significant thing" is helpful. For context, I have a family member in my house who tested positive yesterday, whereas I and another person in my house tested negative. I've mild cold symptoms for the past 24 hours or so (headache, runny nose, tired). Everyone in my house is vaccinated. Google the brand/name of the test you're using and check it against the list of FDA withdrawn tests (though you're unlikely to have issues there). If you're potentially symptomatic, the likelihood of a false negative is generally diminished.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
poll plane variant posted:The Kaiser study has them at 47% at 5 months, these numbers are genuinely remarkable and incredibly different from the US experience. I mean to start with we have a higher vaccination rate. Ontario is at over 82% eligible population vaccinated and rising (which as far as I can tell handily beats the most vaccinated US state, Vermont). We also kept moderate restrictions as I've mentioned before. It turns out when you combine the two you can have a reasonable approximation of normal life and have case numbers drop. It's not just us. France has an overall R0 of 0.8 right now with moderate restrictions and a higher vaccination rate than the US. You can't just assume the US experience is inevitable everywhere.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why do people keep thinking vaccination efficiency numbers work like this? To be fair, I think ppv understands how efficiency numbers work and was assuming that maybe I didn't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
enki42 posted:To be fair, I think ppv understands how efficiency numbers work and was assuming that maybe I didn't. Your number was so high I just had to make sure, though 14% infected out of a large population would be an outbreak I think I would've been hearing more about. It's going to be fascinating to see why Canada's vaccines have fared better. Different factory? The longer spacing? The brand mixing? Vaxxed Canadians are just better at NPIs also?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:19
|
|
|
poll plane variant posted:Your number was so high I just had to make sure, though 14% infected out of a large population would be an outbreak I think I would've been hearing more about. It's going to be fascinating to see why Canada's vaccines have fared better. Different factory? The longer spacing? The brand mixing? Vaxxed Canadians are just better at NPIs also? I thought about different behaviour between unvaxxed and vaxxed people having an effect but if it is, it can't be THAT strong since even the unvaccinated population are keeping their cases fairly flat right now. Longer spacing could be a factor, I've heard that but I don't think it's a conclusive thing. We did have the longest spacing in the world by a good amount for a good chunk of our rollout (16 weeks, I think the highest anyone else went was 12).
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:28
|
|
|
As far as "lockdown stories" go, I guess in retrospect we've been pretty locked down here for the last year and a half. It just wasn't called a lockdown and I don't have kids or much of a social life in this remote area to begin with, so it hasn't drastically impacted me other than WFH. Since last April, the local tribe has done the following (most tribes/reservations in the region have done similar): -Mask mandate, curfew, test and contact trace task force established. Testing availability is not that great because it's a geographically large area so there are two centralized testing locations that aren't all that accessible for many people. -All tribal government, services, and tribally chartered businesses (combined more than half of workers here) were closed to public access and had a WFH order for all employees able to do their duties remotely. This included shutting down the casinos. -All schools went totally remote. School lunches were delivered to students. Sports were cancelled (this really pissed off a lot of parents). -Stay at home order. Residents are only to leave for groceries, medical care, work in essential positions. Dunno how this was enforced. They did actually do tight curfews for a little while, people were only allowed out of their homes for a four-hour span to get groceries. I think they gave up on this because there isn't the manpower to actually enforce it. -Varying levels of travel restrictions have been enacted. At one point they stationed tribal police checkpoints at all the highway entrances to the reservation. Everyone passing the checkpoint was stopped and informed of the mask mandate and other rules. Residents leaving/entering were logged for test and trace task force (I don't recall them doing testing at the checkpoints though). Residents weren't allowed to pass checkpoints after curfew. Thru traffic was advised not to stop for gas or food just to carry on through. They're not doing that right now but might start up again if the Delta wave gets bad. We also got legal threats from our shithead governor over the checkpoints. There's been quite a bit of noncompliance with testing, contact tracing, quarantine. Unfortunately tribal police are understaffed so it's hard for them to enforce everything. There was an episode last summer where there was a birthday party with cases at an outlying village (~100 people) and they did enforce a no-poo poo lockdown for two weeks. Police stationed at either end of the one road leading through town, no one allowed in or out except the designated grocery runners. All told that's a fairly strict lockdown at least in US terms. We're a bit of a unique scenario though. The tribe is a theoretically sovereign nation so is the largest employer here, runs the schools, has its own police force and isn't subject to our lovely let 'er rip state rules. The geographic isolation makes it easier to screen traffic; you set up 4-6 checkpoints and that will cover most of the traffic. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Oct 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
enki42 posted:I thought about different behaviour between unvaxxed and vaxxed people having an effect but if it is, it can't be THAT strong since even the unvaccinated population are keeping their cases fairly flat right now. Very few people went the full 16 once second shot rescheduling opened up in the summer. I can't find an exact number, but anecdotally it seems to have been between 2-3 months on average.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:42
|
|
|
I'd also hesitate to draw too much from prison data without a bit more robust research into that particular case because historically, prisons and things like military cantonments are the center of a hundred circle diagram in terms of being perfect places for pretty much any disease to absolutely rip through. A population with almost no legal rights, conservative oversight, poorly funded and/or provisioned, and out of the eye of the public in addition to rather a lot else. I'm not saying there's nothing to be gleaned but it doesn't seem like it'd be a situation that could adequately stand in for a generic citizen's experience in a vaxx v un-vaxxed spread scenario
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
are we talking about the prison study where they created a quarantine wing but the prison staff was 2/3 unvaccinated and rotating through both quarantine and regular wing
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:53
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:are we talking about the prison study where they created a quarantine wing but the prison staff was 2/3 unvaccinated and rotating through both quarantine and regular wing I believe so, if only because I'm not aware of any other actual study done in the environment. PPV do you have some of the original tweets/sources talking about it? All I can find is a Harvard one from back in June and I'm not in a spot time-wise where I can dig into it
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 18:56
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:are we talking about the prison study where they created a quarantine wing but the prison staff was 2/3 unvaccinated and rotating through both quarantine and regular wing It's the same one. I feel like being exposed by force to unvaxxed chuds without NPIs is a pretty meaningful model for most Americans who work with the public! https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7038e3.htm quote:Among 233 incarcerated persons, 185 (79%) of whom were fully vaccinated, 172 (74%) received positive SARS-CoV-2 test results during July 12–August 14 (Supplementary Figure, https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109901). Among a subset of 70 symptomatic persons providing swabs for serial testing, no significant difference was found in the median interval between reported symptom onset and last positive RT-PCR result in vaccinated versus unvaccinated persons (9 versus 11 days, respectively; p = 0.37) (Figure). Virus was cultured from one or more specimens from five of 12 (42%) unvaccinated and 14 of 37 (38%) fully vaccinated persons for whom viral culture was attempted. Genomic sequencing confirmed the AY.3 sublineage of the Delta variant in 58 specimens from 58 persons. Unfortunately it's really hard to pick apart the Pfizer/Moderna difference from the waning considering the Moderna vaccinees had received it more recently. But even fresh Moderna hardly seems sterilizing here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
enki42 posted:For a typical population and somewhat recent-ish vaccination 80-90% prevention against infection is a reasonable estimate. For Ontario over the last week a full round of vaccines (mostly Pfizer / Moderna) were 86% effective against infection. Just keep in mind that that these estimates are almost always VE vs detected infection. Since breakthroughs have a significantly higher rate of asymptomatic or very mild infection, VE against any infection is going to lower. On the other hand, the initial discussion was about effects on transmission and breakthrough infections tend to also have a lower secondary attack rate. That probably puts their effective VE back up in the 85-90% range in terms of effects on outbreak transmissions (at least for a few months after vax). Discendo Vox posted:If you're potentially symptomatic, the likelihood of a false negative is generally diminished. While the likelihood of a false negative is smaller if you're symptomatic, the negative predictive value is also probably diminished (the likelihood of actually being negative if you test negative). That's because under most testing schemes COVID is far more prevalent among people who are symptomatic, and the increased number of opportunities for folks to falsely test negative offsets the lower false negative rate! In the particular population of the CDC evaluation, the negative predictive value was 96.9% for asymptomatic tests and 91.2% for symptomatic tests. Asymptomatic w/ known exposure would probably be somewhere in between. E: That is to say, your negative test is more likely to be wrong if you are symptomatic than if you are asymptomatic. Stickman fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Oct 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
Thanks everyone for the detailed responses re: false negatives.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
I don't think the people in this thread advocating for zero covid through the strictest measures (complete shutdown of supermarkets etc) realize that in order to do so, you aren't going to get voluntary compliance, you're going to have people breaking those rules. Even huge fines in Melbourne and Sydney didn't help. So, I want to hear: what are your policing measures you propose to make sure compliance happens? What specific, actual regulations do you propose putting in place? Because stuff like home visits are VERY hard to police unless you actively have like, cops on every street corner.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 23:21
|
|
|
I think the idea is to lockdown hard and fast, mass test, isolate positive cases etc., much as China has done. The weaker the NPIs and the less capacity you have to actually enforce those NPIs, then the more ineffective the lockdown will be, which obviously leads to the lockdown being prolonged and not popular.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 23:32
|
|
|
Gio posted:I think the idea is to lockdown hard and fast, mass test, isolate positive cases etc., much as China has done. The weaker the NPIs and the less capacity you have to actually enforce those NPIs, then the more ineffective the lockdown will be, which obviously leads to the lockdown being prolonged and not popular. Once again, I point you to Australia, where in Melbourne we have done all of these things in the most recent lockdown and the virus still spread. Let's actually talk about enforcement. Are we guarding apartment buildings? Arresting anyone who leaves their house? What are we talking about here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 23:33
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I don't understand what confusion of ideas is leading you guys to make this glaring error. Numbers here don't seem to be correct. The world would be an even scarier place than it currently is if a 1% infection risk for a given day actually translated to a 98% infection risk over the course of two days. Unless I'm missing something.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 23:43
|
|
|
StrangeThing posted:Once again, I point you to Australia, where in Melbourne we have done all of these things in the most recent lockdown and the virus still spread. I’m simply saying that zero Covid is possible, and Australia isn’t doing “the things” necessary to achieve that goal. In the real world, China effectively contained Delta and isn’t in constant lockdown, whereas Australia has not contained Delta and is in a months long, prolonged lockdown. I somehow doubt Australia did all the right things China has yet failed. I would assume “the right things” include strict enforcement from the outset like a police presence to enforce NPIs, yes. The idea sure as poo poo isn’t to half-rear end it, draw it out for months, and then ultimately fail. Earlier in the thread Poll Plane posited that people were breaking the rules given the rise in cases despite lockdown. I asked you if you could break the rules and be certain there wouldn’t be a consequence. Freebooter replied to me and said, yes, it’s not hard to break the rules and a lot of people are breaking those rules. Your response was dodgy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 23:48
|
|
|
Gio posted:I’m not advocating anything, nor do I have any interest in discussing hypotheticals. Yeah. And I'm asking you, what are "the things" necessary? Is it police on every street corner? Is it random checks on households? Is it making all outside activity illegal? E.g. cannot step outside your house at all? What are those things, and what enforcement mechanism can be used to implement them?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 23:57
|
|
|
StrangeThing posted:Yeah. And I'm asking you, what are "the things" necessary? And again, I say—look to China, what are they doing? Are those things they needed to do? If the answer is “yes,” then yeah those things are necessary. I’m not a lockdown expert nor do I have any interest in discussing every minutae of public policy down to who mows the lawns. Like just go outside and break the rules of your crappy “lockdown” already sheesh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
Castaign posted:Numbers here don't seem to be correct. The world would be an even scarier place than it currently is if a 1% infection risk for a given day actually translated to a 98% infection risk over the course of two days. yeah you're right sorry I meant a 98% chance you don't get infected, that's what I get for typing in a hurry. If one person works both days there's a ~2% chance they get infected one of the days, if one person works one day and one works the other there's still about a ~2% chance one of them gets infected but the risk for each individual is then only 1% The overall point is correct though, if you have twice the workers working half the hours, it's still going to be about the same number of infections as half the workers working twice the hours. If you have half the workers yes there's less total people who could potentially be infected, but they all have double the exposure time so you'll see more of them infected, it mostly cancels out. The idea that we could reduce infections among essential workers by firing half of them and making the other half work double time and therefore have double the exposure doesn't really make any sense. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Oct 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 00:39
|
|
|
StrangeThing posted:Once again, I point you to Australia, where in Melbourne we have done all of these things in the most recent lockdown and the virus still spread. Maybe we should talk about what alternative you are proposing. Do you think we should just let cases go up and up and up exponentially until the hospitals overflow and the healthcare system collapses? Or are you advocating some middle path where we let cases go up and up and up exponentially until the hospitals get close to full and then lock down and finally start reducing cases? If it's the latter, what enforcement do you think it will take to start reducing cases once we hit your threshold of "oh poo poo too many better do something" ?
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 01:09
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Maybe we should talk about what alternative you are proposing. I genuinely don't know. What is the R0 with say 85% of the population (whole population not just adults) vaccinated?
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:02
|
|
|
Gio posted:And again, I say—look to China, what are they doing? Are those things they needed to do? If the answer is “yes,” then yeah those things are necessary. There is a difference between what the state needs to do and what it's capable of doing. A police state can naturally bring more resources to bear on compliance. E.g: StrangeThing posted:Yeah. And I'm asking you, what are "the things" necessary? There are 20,000 Victoria Police officers. The state has a population of 6-7 million. So there are hard limits on how much enforcement can actually occur, and lockdowns require a huge amount of community buy-in which has increasingly evaporated over a very gruelling 18 months.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:08
|
|
|
Honestly it's shocking to me that they were kept up and supported for so long when in my own backyard I saw people literally start rambling about space alien mind control governments after like 3 weeks of not being able to go to fast casual dining Then I remember that the public at large even here has never stopped supporting pandemic control measures and it's just our deeply psychotic systems of *waves hands wildly at everything* that prevent it from actually ever even being acknowledged, much less acceded to
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:13
|
|
|
Illuminti posted:I genuinely don't know. What is the R0 with say 85% of the population (whole population not just adults) vaccinated? From looking around seems like that would 85% vaccinated would provide something like herd immunity.....so we should probably just go for that. I think we'll hit that target in Australia. Sucks to be in the US... Illuminti fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Oct 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:16
|
|
|
Illuminti posted:I genuinely don't know. What is the R0 with say 85% of the population (whole population not just adults) vaccinated? By definition you can’t have a R0 of a population with vaccinated people. It’s an Rt then.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:22
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:Honestly it's shocking to me that they were kept up and supported for so long when in my own backyard I saw people literally start rambling about space alien mind control governments after like 3 weeks of not being able to go to fast casual dining It helped that after the initial March/April lockdowns in 2020, Victoria was the only place with widespread COVID and a lockdown. New South Wales had a low burn of 10-20 a day kept under control with contact tracing during the same time period and all the pubs and restaurants were open. Every other state was at 100% zero COVID live-like-2019 paradise. So in Victoria that gave us something to strive for: get case numbers to zero and we can be normal again like every other state. And it worked, because day after day the numbers kept dropping until in October they hit zero. October 2020 to May 2021, nationwide, was a zero COVID summer where life was mostly back to normal apart from a snap lockdown whenever a new case leaked in. That was the new normal and pretty much everybody agreed a week of lockdown now and then with life totally normal the rest of the time was worth it. NSW was the only state with an aversion to that because they'd managed to contact trace their way through low burns while staying out of lockdown through 2020. Delta changed the game around May/June 2021 when there was an outbreak in Sydney, the NSW state govt let it get worse while it tried to contact trace it, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into lockdown. It inevitably leaked into Melbourne, Canberra and Auckland - except those jurisdictions stuck with their tried and tested "lock down hard and fast as soon as you get a single case" routine, and oops, turns out that doesn't work anymore with Delta because it's just too infectious. After a time state governments accordingly adjusted their expectations and told us this is it, we'll never get back to zero again, but we can vaccinate our way back up to a "COVID-safe" new normal. (Which was ultimately where we were going to end up anyway unless we wanted to keep the borders closed forever.) You can see why compliance would slip when the situation has changed so radically. In 2020, clandestinely having a family visit could result in spread which would keep the entire state in lockdown longer. In 2021, case numbers are irrelevant to how long lockdown lasts (only vaccination numbers matter anymore), so if you break the rules and you or some of your friends catch COVID, well, that's just a few more cases on a growing pile of 1,000+ per day.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:30
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:By definition you can’t have a R0 of a population with vaccinated people. It’s an Rt then. Ahh yes, my mistake. So what I really mean Rt or Reff. People refer to the R number a lot and that confused me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:49 |
|
|
freebooter posted:It helped that after the initial March/April lockdowns in 2020, Victoria was the only place with widespread COVID and a lockdown. New South Wales had a low burn of 10-20 a day kept under control with contact tracing during the same time period and all the pubs and restaurants were open. Every other state was at 100% zero COVID live-like-2019 paradise. So in Victoria that gave us something to strive for: get case numbers to zero and we can be normal again like every other state. And it worked, because day after day the numbers kept dropping until in October they hit zero. Yeah that's true, I'm definitely guilty of seeing everything through the lens of the states, where it was basically game over once Trump ordered that plague ship unloaded and none of its passengers tracked or traced, because the way states work in the US is uncontrollable anarchy compared to pretty much everywhere else. Did Australia have as much of a scare/response to SARS? I know early on at least you could pretty reliably predict how well a country would contain COVID based on if they had to do a bunch of poo poo to stop SARS a decade before, probably makes a lot of difference having that fresh in people's minds when its still novel
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2021 02:34
|
|