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But the future refused to change...
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Oct 6, 2021 01:08
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Its still a bummer of a ending for Londo. I mean he did kind of bring it on himself with making nice with the Shadows to begin with to further his own political gain, but damnits a sorry way to do him. I find G'Kar as a spiritual leader pretty drat good though i love that.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:21
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Hollismason posted:Its still a bummer of a ending for Londo. I mean he did kind of bring it on himself with making nice with the Shadows to begin with to further his own political gain, but damnits a sorry way to do him. Londo really did do some profoundly evil poo poo.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:31
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It is a great tragedy. While Londo wanted some glory for himself, what he really wanted was a return to glory for the Great Centauri Republic! And for a while it looked like he got what he wanted. But it ended with the Great Centauri Republic a pariah and in ruins.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:33
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Still not sure where this is going it seems like the main conflicts are not going to be resolved. I think I only have like 4 more episodes left. I don't think Bester is going to get his comeuppance.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:35
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Hollismason posted:Still not sure where this is going it seems like the main conflicts are not going to be resolved. I think I only have like 4 more episodes left. I don't think Bester is going to get his comeuppance. Some threads do not get resolved on the show, I'm afraid. I don't know if you can find them anymore, but there were trilogies of books written about the Psi Corp, the technomages, and the Centauri that tie up some of the loose ends.
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Oct 6, 2021 02:48
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I had the second of the Psy Corps trilogy. Gave it away or dumped it, which is unfortunate, since it turns out they're pretty rare now.
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Oct 6, 2021 02:50
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Things really seem to be wrapping up super surprised by some things I'm on Season 5 Episode 20 Objects in Motion Super surprised at the teaming up of Lyta and G'Kar, thats somethng that was unexpected. Garibaldi finally getting something good to happen to him after all the poo poo he's been through.
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Oct 6, 2021 03:52
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The show is about its protagonists, which is all well and good, but they are upper class for the most part, and even those who are not are in political points of control. There is very little class or social analysis. Social realities that are completely elided in most, say, Star Trek (except for DS9, on occasion), are presented to us, but there's no sense of development there that isn't about specific heroes doing What Needs to be Done. I do think you’re arguing from your own definition of what “Great Man” theory is, instead of grounding it in the more commonly accepted framework for it. Without a clear statement from you of your definition, you can just keep shifting what you mean as I argue, which means the discussion goes nowhere. You now seem to be arguing about elitism, which is not the same as “Great Man” theory. I think there’s a stronger argument for B5 as elitist, although I think that argument is still somewhat flawed. I think the key point with Delenn is that her choices change the course of history, but she can be replaced. I flatly disagree that nobody could have replaced her. We know JMS had trap-doors for all his characters, and one reason to have ambassadorial aides is so that they could substitute in. We’d have had some dropped story-lines, but Lennier could have done much of what Delenn did. On the screen, we see Neroon go from a fierce opponent to Delenn to a moment of sacrifice that proves he could have taken her place had it been necessary. But we can also understand why he would rather save her life than take her place, because he sees his own flaws and not hers. (Recall that she nearly caused a xenocide in a moment of weakness, anger, and fear.) S5 ends with the show giving us the main cast’s replacements, and it is possible to imagine another show set on B5 where these new characters are instrumental to history. “Great Men” are nearly unique, and usually not replaced, whether it’s Alexander the Great or Napoleon or Hannibal. Even someone like Augustus Caesar isn’t immediately followed by another “Great Man.” We don’t get much history past the boundaries of our story, but we do know that Vir is pivotally important in Centauri history, and he’s a replacement in S5. As for “world-changing agency given to the masses”, TV isn’t a great medium to do that. There are a few glimpses of that, perhaps, but almost none, because the show’s message is that even a screw-up everyman like Zack may find himself in a position where his choice changes the course of history, and that’s essentially a push back against the claim that only groups make a difference. Whether you think JMS is deeply wrong about that or not, it’s an entirely different issue than “Great Man” theory because JMS is claiming anyone, in the right place and at the right time, can make a difference without being a genius. He’s just refuting “Great Man” theory in a way you dislike. I don’t to sidetrack with the BSG reboot, but you really think that show makes a genuine attempt to present the masses as the central motivating force of history? If you’re thinking of the Cylons, I’ll note that not only does their society fall apart, it’s built upon enslaving the Centurians. Duplicating members of the elite, whether through cloning or copies, doesn’t suddenly make them “the masses”. The show is interested in the Centurians, sort of, but we know less at the end about what motivates them than in the classic series where one episode has Starbuck befriend a Centurian. As for the colonists, I suppose there are some meaningful votes over the course of the series, but the show really isn’t interested in differentiating between mass movements except in so far as they map directly onto leaders. There’s a military faction that mostly supports Roslin and Adama. There’s Baltar’s cult, later, and his civilian supporters earlier. There’s Zarek and his supporters. They matter, I suppose, at least in the early seasons, but there isn’t a coherent political position behind them, just how they feel about plot-specific issues. In American politics, you can discuss Republicans, Democrats, libertarians, neoconservatives, neoliberals, anarchists, white supremicists, and dozens of other groups. And you can characterize them based on tne group position on any number of issues. Can you really do the same with these important “masses” in BSG? Or are they basically factions and their leaders are the ones who hold (and dictate) their values? I’ll also note that in the later seasons, the “masses” barely factor into events at all. Roslin’s “I am coming for you” speech isn’t predicated on taking a democratic vote first. Nor did I see any involvement of the “masses” in any of the eventful decisions of the finale, including the decision to send every ship in the fleet into the Sun. Some of those ships were probably privately or collectively owned, so by what authority did Adama pull everyone off them and destroy all the technology? Did 100% of survivors support that measure? What about those with chronic illnesses? I’d sure be happy as a diabetic to be told that the colonial leadership decided we should abandon technology and that I get to die fairly soon because I can’t survive without it! I’d argue you can see aspects of this tendency going several seasons back.
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Oct 6, 2021 05:45
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Just got to Babylon Squared in my rewatch. Is that supposed to be the Shadows attacking B5 in Sinclair's vision? Because lol at them using 20th century welding equipment if so.
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Oct 6, 2021 07:26
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Small White Dragon posted:Just got to Babylon Squared in my rewatch. Is that supposed to be the Shadows attacking B5 in Sinclair's vision? Because lol at them using 20th century welding equipment if so. It's servants of the Shadows rather than the Shadows themselves. The Shadows can start wars, but their ideology doesn't allow them to end wars.
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Oct 6, 2021 09:38
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Small White Dragon posted:Just got to Babylon Squared in my rewatch. Is that supposed to be the Shadows attacking B5 in Sinclair's vision? Because lol at them using 20th century welding equipment if so. It's kinda funny how they gave Sinclair a scar in the visions. Then the actor quit and there's nothing that causes a scar. But he still have to have it the next time he shows up.
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Oct 6, 2021 10:14
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sebmojo posted:these are v commonly held opinions and objectively correct imo Wait. People don’t like the opening credits of season 5? It’s dope as hell.
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Oct 6, 2021 10:44
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah, it was real clear he was scrambling to fill the first part of the season. If there's a similar telepath arc in the reboot I expect it'll be way better. He put out a comic miniseries a bit ago about telepaths. Guy likes him some telepaths.
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Oct 6, 2021 10:57
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LionArcher posted:Wait. People don’t like the opening credits of season 5? It’s dope as hell. i didn't, it was lacking in IT FAILED
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Oct 6, 2021 11:17
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LionArcher posted:Wait. People don’t like the opening credits of season 5? It’s dope as hell. It's definitely my least favorite of the five, and feels pretty uninspired to me. Not Franke's best. I understand why it's so different, thematically, but it would have been better as a closer variation on the one used in the first 4 seasons.
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Oct 6, 2021 12:23
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Alhazred posted:It's kinda funny how they gave Sinclair a scar in the visions. Then the actor quit and there's nothing that causes a scar. But he still have to have it the next time he shows up. Cat scratch.
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Oct 6, 2021 12:27
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They addressed the scar in one of the novels. It was an accident during ranger training.
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Oct 6, 2021 13:28
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The season 5 opener being far different is rad because everyone has a bit in it. This is when the big war is over and now everyone is settling down into the new normal.
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Oct 6, 2021 14:32
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The only opening I don't really like is the first one. It just goes on and on. But even that one has some good parts like "Humans and aliens, wrapped in two million, five hundred thousand tons of spinning metal . . . all alone in the night." "
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Oct 6, 2021 15:03
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Alhazred posted:The only opening I don't really like is the first one. It just goes on and on. But even that one has some good parts like "Humans and aliens, wrapped in two million, five hundred thousand tons of spinning metal . . . all alone in the night."
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Oct 6, 2021 15:30
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Payndz posted:Even that bit's flawed: "two and a half million" would be a snappier, less-clumsy way of saying it than "two million, five hundred thousand". But it is what it is. (Maybe JMS will streamline it in the reboot.) "A hunk of metal with some weird guys in it spinning in space."
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Oct 6, 2021 15:45
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"Sentient meat in a giant space centrifuge."
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Oct 6, 2021 15:50
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"It spins, okay?"
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Oct 6, 2021 16:00
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I'll be honest, I don't know that I have a well-formed critique and at this point I just don't want to deal with it anymore.
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Oct 6, 2021 16:23
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Payndz posted:Even that bit's flawed: "two and a half million" would be a snappier, less-clumsy way of saying it than "two million, five hundred thousand". But it is what it is. (Maybe JMS will streamline it in the reboot.) Yeah this bugged me every time  Waste a few more syllables doing a Data-style "too much precision" joke why don't you
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Oct 6, 2021 16:50
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Data Graham posted:Yeah this bugged me every time
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Oct 6, 2021 16:52
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Just making it two million would have sufficed. I'm sure they had a model of the station and they calculated how much it would mass, but it's the future and materials science should help out a bit.
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Oct 6, 2021 17:13
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All I know is he better leave in “The name of the place…” or my podcast name won’t make any sense anymore.
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Oct 6, 2021 17:19
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I'm not a fan of the Season 5 opening theme once the logo appears, but the bit they talk over is great even if you can't hear it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_120G7-xLQ
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Oct 6, 2021 18:34
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I dunno, I think that line felt natural for the kind of dude who memorizes Tennyson poems.
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Oct 6, 2021 19:26
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Alhazred posted:"It spins, okay?" "It spins now?!?" "It spins now."
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Oct 6, 2021 21:00
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Well drat I just finished Bablyon 5 . Start to finish. Sleeping in the Light was super loving good. It was a good send off to a great show. I was a little disappointed we didn't see what happened to Lyta and G'Kar , but other wise it was good. Also really surprised to see Claudia Christsen and Ivanova return. Really great ending to a great show. Its to bad none of the TV movies are streaming anywhere or I'd watch them. If they can recapture 1/10th of how good the show was for the reboot then the new series will be good. Can't believe its over with.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:38
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OnlyBans posted:I dunno, I think that line felt natural for the kind of dude who memorizes Tennyson poems. I know the weird, formal speech was supposed to be part of separating Present Day, Present Time from the future, like people calling each other by their titles (he’s almost always Mr. Garibaldi, rarely Michael)? Bonus points for covering for “JMS is as good at dialogue as Lucas.”
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Oct 6, 2021 21:39
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Other than the telepath storyline start to finish I can see why people consider B5 one of the greatest scifi shows ever. There was some genuinely really surprising twists and turns in the story , but everything did have a finality to it and everything was wrapped up nicely. Mostly there was some stuff I wanted to see resolve , mostly the Drakh what the gently caress.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:43
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Luigi Thirty posted:I know the weird, formal speech was supposed to be part of separating Present Day, Present Time from the future, like people calling each other by their titles (he’s almost always Mr. Garibaldi, rarely Michael)? Bonus points for covering for “JMS is as good at dialogue as Lucas.” I did always think it was odd that he was "Mr. Garibaldi", even when he was head of security. He was part of a military organization and him not having any sort of rank/actual title was weird to me. Londo had a way of making it sound really cool though.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:44
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Maybe it's like how British surgeons become "Mr" again. I could totally see JMS coming up with a grognardy backstory about how private detectives formed the backbone of security, blah blah blah.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:47
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Lenier got done wrong in the show
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Oct 6, 2021 21:47
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Mummy told JMS that is the way he wanted the character to go and JMS was like, "Are you sure?" Granted, part of that is because JMS is a massive incel so his vision of chivalric/romantic love is very blackpilled.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:51
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Its kind of a poo poo way to deal with the character, more than even Londo and G'Kar , i really felt bad for Lenier. Like what a bummer way to go out.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:57
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