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Nothingtoseehere posted:I didn't realize understanding basic statistics was bannable now. If you want to pretend you matter to more than a few hundred people in a country of millions, can I recommend your ego a career in media? We are all numbers in a spreadsheet at the end of a day. Jeez. I don't really think you understand stats all that well tbh. e: gently caress me gonna have to find the cat now 
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Oct 7, 2021 18:16
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There are millions of houses in this country, the number that burn down is statistically insignificant. Think of the money we could save by abolishing the fire brigade.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:18
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Nothingtoseehere posted:I didn't realize understanding basic statistics was bannable now. If you want to pretend you matter to more than a few hundred people in a country of millions, can I recommend your ego a career in media? We are all numbers in a spreadsheet at the end of a day. So what happened to turn you into such an unempathetic person? Or do you just really like being able to go to the pub again?
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Oct 7, 2021 18:18
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Necrothatcher posted:hey data gently caress off back to the enterprise I'm sorry, I'll let you govern by whatever sob story catches your attention this week instead. If you want to pretend that a few more drops of death in the ocean of it a nation exists in are intolerable and must be stopped, you'll be hearing plenty of them.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:19
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I'm just going to stop debating with them, but thank you all for confirming what a selfish shithead they are. I'm glad it wasn't just me, but at least it highlights the very important point of how many selfish shitheads there are in the UK.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:20
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keep punching joe posted:There's a thing these days called home delivery, or they could always get a vaccinated. Ah right so everyone who doesn't have a vaccine is an anti-vaxxer? Cool take, lets ban them from shops and public transport and pretend this won't directly effect their ability to sell their labour (which they need to do to eat) and therefore is actually just a free choice. Though to be charitable we could ask them why they didn't get it so we can know who to ban, it's not like people can lie or anything. I'm kind of surprised that "please don't give the UK government the ability to legally veto the right to bodily autonomy" is somehow controversial. In fact I'm kind of surprised that the right to bodily autonomy is something that's not a big deal? Even if it could result in a public good, people shouldn't be forced to have medical interventions they don't want.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:30
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I think people ITT are getting their wires crossed a bit about the distinction between personally meaningful and statistically meaningful. Obviously all deaths are tragedies, but that's not relevant to national public health policy, miserable though it is to make that kind of hardnosed analysis. If I died tomorrow in some freak accident involving shoving legos up my bum that would be a terrible tragedy for my family and my partner and my friends, but if the data showed that 99.999% of people who shoved legos up their bums in any year got away with a bit of light bleeding out of their rear end, no one would be immediately insisting all legos be banned forever.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:31
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You could always take the position that every death for any reason is to be celebrated as another being liberated from the senseless and grinding torment of existence, because the greatest cruelty you can wish upon a being is for it to suffer the burden of living, but when I do that people say I am being "too negative" and "depressing".
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Oct 7, 2021 18:36
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OwlFancier posted:You could always take the position that every death for any reason is to be celebrated as another being liberated from the senseless and grinding torment of existence, because the greatest cruelty you can wish upon a being is for it to suffer the burden of living, but when I do that people say I am being "too negative" and "depressing". Surely that would be the optimistic take on death. But the world is upside down.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:40
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Brendan Rodgers posted:Surely that would be the optimistic take on death. But the world is upside down. That's how I feel! But unaccountably other people do not agree which I choose to interpret as a personal attack.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:42
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thrashingteeth posted:Ah right so everyone who doesn't have a vaccine is an anti-vaxxer? Cool take, lets ban them from shops and public transport and pretend this won't directly effect their ability to sell their labour (which they need to do to eat) and therefore is actually just a free choice. Though to be charitable we could ask them why they didn't get it so we can know who to ban, it's not like people can lie or anything. The government already carried out an exercise last year to identify the clinically vulnerable, I'm sure its not much more of a stretch to identify people who may have adverse reaction to a vaccine or some other medical reason. Bringing in a system where you scan your phone or swipe a card to determine vaccine status isn't all that difficult really. Other than a direct medical risk what other reason is there to not want to be vaccinated? A religious belief? Something they read on Facebook? Because frankly if that's the case well tough poo poo you can stay in your house.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:43
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the sex ghost posted:Vindication for hero clegg Lol at the Greens being on level pegging with the Lib Dems tho
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Oct 7, 2021 18:44
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Sorry for your loss Are you, though?
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Oct 7, 2021 18:47
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OwlFancier posted:That's how I feel! But unaccountably other people do not agree which I choose to interpret as a personal attack. 
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Oct 7, 2021 18:48
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Anyway as nobody is coming to free me from this prison of flesh anytime soon have some photographs of an unusually high tide at whitby.   
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Oct 7, 2021 18:50
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Sorry for your loss, but in a country of millions, with 10000 deaths a week in normal times, stories of individuals are not important, no matter how strongly they make you feel Nothingtoseehere posted:I'm sorry, I'll let you govern by whatever sob story catches your attention this week instead. If you want to pretend that a few more drops of death in the ocean of it a nation exists in are intolerable and must be stopped, you'll be hearing plenty of them. _____________/ 
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Oct 7, 2021 18:50
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Guavanaut posted:Try doing the exact same sentiment in a major key with a cheap organ. And then you have the dialectical synthesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYCYJA5DIp8
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Oct 7, 2021 18:51
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Owl, I always enjoy your photos. Do you have them hosted anywhere?
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Oct 7, 2021 18:53
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I think you could probably chart the Century of the Self from when edgy bearded athiests went from "pff religion is a scam for sheep, communally bettering ourselves on this earth is the goal" to "pff religion is a scam for sheep, what's the age of consent in BTC today"
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Oct 7, 2021 18:54
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No, I just post them usually after I take them and I take them when I am going to and from work. I just happen to live in a nice looking part of the country. If you want to put them anywhere you're welcome to, fair use dmac no copywrite intended donut steel etc. Anyone with a phone in the right place could take them I just know a lot of youse are stuck in terrible places like "the south" so it's basically a form of intranational aid.
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Oct 7, 2021 18:56
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Thread's quite moody tonight. I did a big poo at work today. An absolute mammoth of a poo. Must have been over a foot long. Quite girthy too. Bit a of strain to it but satisfying. No break off either. Just one big solid line of underwater intercontinental communications network cable right there in the bowl (and fair bit up the back of it). Proud of that one. Always poo at work. Its a well earned break with a genuine sense of relief, and you save money using the company toilet paper* rather than your own at home. *even if it is tracing paper and slides around like driving a rear wheel drive car on ice.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:00
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Gort posted:It's fine, there were already ways to die, so it's acceptable to add additional ways to die, because you already had a chance to die https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4LpSzKnEtA I guess Alicia Keys and Jack White were right. Edit: Hells Bells! That movie came out in 2008?
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Oct 7, 2021 19:00
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thrashingteeth posted:Ah right so everyone who doesn't have a vaccine is an anti-vaxxer? Cool take, lets ban them from shops and public transport and pretend this won't directly effect their ability to sell their labour (which they need to do to eat) and therefore is actually just a free choice. Though to be charitable we could ask them why they didn't get it so we can know who to ban, it's not like people can lie or anything. The concept of individual self-ownership is a liberal one - it suggests that a person exists outside of the environment that created them and once they are fully formed then they enter the world, free to make agreements, sign contracts, trade, etc. Understanding that everyone is in a dialectic relationship with society is key to Marxist thought - we are shaped by our society as we shape our environment which in turns impacts society and round and round it goes. There's no exemption saying 'ah my body my rules', there's only the development of the material basis of society leading to social concepts like classes and then concepts like rights and freedoms which are completely contingent on the prior two things - I agree that a lot of the time that the working class and humanity in general is usually best served by granting them near total freedom over their physical being as ruling class oppression will absolutely take advantage of opportunities to invade it, but that's not universal and far from absolute. Since it's the working classes which are forced into workplaces filled with other workers and exposed to random members of the public, forced into shared houses etc it is an act of collective self defence for the working class to demand the population at large does not pose a significant health risk to itself. Now there's plenty of NPIs which should be rolled out and mandated before vaccines but I don't see a solid break between those measures and a vaccine mandate.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:08
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keep punching joe posted:The government already carried out an exercise last year to identify the clinically vulnerable, I'm sure its not much more of a stretch to identify people who may have adverse reaction to a vaccine or some other medical reason. Bringing in a system where you scan your phone or swipe a card to determine vaccine status isn't all that difficult really. I get the frustration, honestly. One of the most glaring lessons from covid is how poor scientific education is in Britain and how vaccines have basically been adopted into a culture war rather than actually being engaged with for what they are. What I AM getting more frustrated with is people advocating for legally enforced mandatory vaccines either through hard power (a guy with a stick who hits unvaccinated people/prison) or soft power ("choose" a vaccine or being excluded from work/shops) and pretending that isn't a huge ethical problem imo.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:10
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namesake posted:Since it's the working classes which are forced into workplaces filled with other workers and exposed to random members of the public, forced into shared houses etc it is an act of collective self defence for the working class to demand the population at large does not pose a significant health risk to itself. Now there's plenty of NPIs which should be rolled out and mandated before vaccines but I don't see a solid break between those measures and a vaccine mandate. Workers choosing to get vaccinated as a form of self defence and advocating for the mass vaccination of their class is not the same as the dictatorship of the bourgeoise getting a legal mandate to make medical decisions for us.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:16
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Oscar Romeo Romeo posted:Thread's quite moody tonight. The last poo I had at work the fire alarm went off just as it broke the seal - very very annoying :Edit: oh and in the ensuing panic my ID card fell into the bowl of filth
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Oct 7, 2021 19:17
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thrashingteeth posted:
That's not how that works, and the UK parliament already had absolute power But since you want people to say it: if your bodily autonomy is exercised by you demanding that vulnerable people die, then you absolutely don't get to cry about potentially starving cause you can't go to any location where vulnerable people might be. Some people have legitimate exemptions to vaccination, or are immunocompromised to a level it is arguably pointless. This is obviously a separate thing to deciding that something you read on Facebook is just as valid as actual medical research, which is not and should not and will never be a trait protected from discrimination
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Oct 7, 2021 19:17
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Has anyone heard from Seaside Loafer?
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Oct 7, 2021 19:20
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Obviously we should all still be wearing masks and such. I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that. But nothing is correct in that an individual case is not a significant bit of evidence - this is a lovely community but it is also a political debate thread in a debate forum. I don’t think they should be demonised for pointing out the public health policy is always a balance of QoL and people dying. There’s not really any way to say that without sounding callous, but it’s the nature of the beast. COVID isn’t going to zero, and we absolutely should be still masking up, but there is a level where ‘acceptable deaths’ kick in. You can argue the toss about where that line sits and it’s obviously an emotive topic, but that line does exist. I also do not like the practical implications of forced vaccines. I did a fair bit of study on forced public health interventions and they never work, and basically always do the opposite of what they intended to. The only way to increase our (already pretty drat good) uptake is to smash the mostly far right ideologies that rail against them. It was a good poster earlier who asked what mandatory vax would actually mean practically, and I’ve not seen a good answer yet.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:21
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Yeah, I get that bodily autonomy is important and shouldn't be compromised lightly, but I'd say vaccinating someone against a global pandemic that has killed millions is a reasonable thing to do.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:21
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Jakabite posted:It was a good poster earlier who asked what mandatory vax would actually mean practically, and I’ve not seen a good answer yet. I'm not offering an answer because I don't have one. I think the state has an obvious justification to use whatever actually works, and jobs that involve the care of vulnerable people should have blacklisted antivaxxers decades ago. Criminal enforcement should be ruled out immediately because it doesn't work and will be used to harass minority communities with distrust of UK authorities while turning the home counties into a safe haven for the virus. If the actual evidenced assumption is that compulsory vaccination would be counterproductive then we shouldn't have it. Dismissing it because ~muh freedom~ or because you have an insane person's understanding of the law is just bollocks. If coercive incentives like public exclusion works, then for any pandemic the only ethical question is which ones work best
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Oct 7, 2021 19:37
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thrashingteeth posted:Workers choosing to get vaccinated as a form of self defence and advocating for the mass vaccination of their class is not the same as the dictatorship of the bourgeoise getting a legal mandate to make medical decisions for us. It's a lovely state of affairs where there are no working class organisation stepping up and demanding these things (NEU exempted as being the best union for that during the pandemic) but absent that force should we instinctively reject all ruling class action against the pandemic? I don't think so. It would be crazy to support a set of demands because your union or socialist party has argued for them and then turn against them because the conservative government agrees and adopts them as law. There's a real problem that the working class organisations which would mediate and determine the will of the working class don't exist in the UK but there's a need for action and so effective action should be supported so far as it achieves a goal that I/we believe would come from such an organisation. It won't be advanced for the reasons that the working class organisation would want it to be advanced and so will always be a poor fit but that has the benefit of having some material impact and also allowing agitation against the flaws in the program. Take furlough - started at 80% of pay for no labour offered at all by the worker. A good mechanism which has saved lives but had no minimum threshold at the minimum wage, poor coverage for the self employed, etc so is open for rallying the workers to demand even more. That's the attitude to consider these things rather than focusing on whether there's some abstract threat in principle from the state doing a thing.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:37
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Yeah I agree it’s entirely insane to let antivaxxers work with vulnerable people because that is just a huge huge risk that will almost certainly result in a LOT of extra deaths. I wouldn’t even be against vax passports for bars and clubs to be honest. But mandated for the basics of living is just a step of overreach I’m not sure I’m comfortable with tho. I am quite libertarian (anarchist, not don’t tread on me) for the thread tho, so ymmv
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Oct 7, 2021 19:44
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keep punching joe posted:Has anyone heard from Seaside Loafer? Not for a long time but I imagine that's due to post surgery recovery. Loafy did make a post a while after the surgery,. Made it through but wasn't in great shape. Typing is challenging. Focusing on recovery IIRC. (Seaside Loafer if you're reading this, best wishes to you)
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Oct 7, 2021 19:44
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I typed out an unwieldy rambling effortpost that got too long, but the crux of it was about personal choice in a contagious world. If every death from covid existed in a vacuum where ones own choices led to your own untimely demise then fine, but I'd bet that a not-insignificant number of deaths came about because of the choices of somebody else overriding your own.
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Oct 7, 2021 19:59
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I don't think it's necessary to legally mandate taking the vaccine. A more modest proposal, that also comes with a financial boon, would be to issue hunting licenses to those lion murdering dentist types, then sell holidays to rich foreigners stalking round the country shooting the unvaccinated with Astra zeneca darts.
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Oct 7, 2021 20:00
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Best wishes seaside loafer if you are reading this! Always my favourite trackside shitter
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Oct 7, 2021 20:02
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Unbelievable: At face this is incredibly upsetting, but then I remember that the Home Office officials probably have access to internal data on how the situation in UK is expected to develop and, uh, maybe moving to Afghanistan is a safer bet than staying in Brexitstan.
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Oct 7, 2021 20:07
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Jakabite posted:Obviously we should all still be wearing masks and such. I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that. But nothing is correct in that an individual case is not a significant bit of evidence - this is a lovely community but it is also a political debate thread in a debate forum. I don’t think they should be demonised for pointing out the public health policy is always a balance of QoL and people dying. There’s not really any way to say that without sounding callous, but it’s the nature of the beast. Yes this is essentially my take as well, and much more succinctly put.
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Oct 7, 2021 20:10
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Spangly A posted:I'm not offering an answer because I don't have one. I think the state has an obvious justification to use whatever actually works, and jobs that involve the care of vulnerable people should have blacklisted antivaxxers decades ago. Criminal enforcement should be ruled out immediately because it doesn't work and will be used to harass minority communities with distrust of UK authorities while turning the home counties into a safe haven for the virus. If the actual evidenced assumption is that compulsory vaccination would be counterproductive then we shouldn't have it. Mandatory quarantine, treatment, and vaccination for infectious diseases are long-established parts of the power of the state - TB and polio vaccination for all teenagers were mandatory in this country within the lifetime of several posters ITT, and childhood vaccinations are still mandatory (with rather looser enforcement) for multiple diseases right now. Within the lifetime of the parents or grandparents of most posters here the Public Health Acts allowed local authorities to forcibly admit people to hospital for treatment and isolation for more than a dozen diseases. There's even biblical precedent for it - multiple Old and New Testament verses advise or outright command the isolation of the sick, in particular Leviticus (everyone's favourite book for justifying stuff) has a surprisingly detailed set of instructions for dealing with what's *probably* smallpox, with god himself telling people to social distance. Exclusion of the *unwilling* - note, not unable - to be vaccinated from society is harsh, yes, but when no other alternative is available it's considerably less harsh than letting people die. Of course there does have to be a balance with any population-scale intervention, and not just on a purely medical/actuarial measure. I've used the example before but you could save almost all of the 2000-ish lives lost on the road, and god knows how many lives of people with respiratory illnesses, by banning all motorised road traffic, but unless you're somehow reading this on a typewriter in a cabin in the woods you're probably going to think that's a step too far.
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