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I had a funny negotiation recently: Got an offer from a company that was much lower than expected. Told them I had another offer that was 23% higher. Recruiter took a day to talk to compensation team, called me, said they could do literally nothing. Couldn't move even a dollar. Over the call, she said she could try pinging a message to another person but that it was very unlikely anything could happen. I told her to give it a shot. Two days later, she bumps the offer up by 14%. So it was still lower than the competition, but it was confusing to have the initial counter-offer be exactly the same. I guess they figured that they couldn't match the competition and that I wouldn't take any counter-offer anyway. Which is true -- ended up turning them down. Just sharing!
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Oct 5, 2021 18:05
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I'm interviewing with a company who has given me a pay range of 10-30k over what I'm making now. I refused to give them numbers, to the point where they have communicated their absolute ceiling is that +30k number (could be bluffing, obviously). On top of what I make now, I also have a defined yearly bonus that would get me 20k on top of my base salary (not guaranteed of course, but I have been there 6 years, they've paid out every year, including some really bad business years, and since then our competitors have gone bust and we've grown rapidly. Not guaranteed, not something I budget for, but realistically it's going to be there). Our benefits have gotten way better in the time I've been there, and are now the best of any company I've worked for. The position I'm interviewing for would be more responsibility, and some interesting challenges, with huge potential for growth, but also seems to be a worse QoL (they do off hours releases, that can last "from an hour to many hours"), and decent but not great benefits. I haven't decided for sure, but even at their max, I don't think I'd take this new job. If I get bonus yearly, it's at max 10k more than I'm getting now, which is obviously a good chunk of change, but not life changing. Because of that, I think at this point my ideal outcome would be leveraging this (potential) offer for a raise at my current company. One of my very few complaints here is that I've gotten 3% raises every year. We've had quite a bit of turnover lately, and the remaining staff was offered a retention bonus, and promised the same again in 6 months. I've just finished a big, mostly solo project, so I think I have an opportunity to bring this up. How do I go about asking for an off cycle raise? I've read the thread enough to know not to bring the other offer up (although I have heard conflicting advice around that), but I also don't have that much leverage if I'm reluctant to accept the new position anyway. Grumpwagon fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 04:46
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I wouldn't move for less than 20% more than your current salary The only way you're getting an out of cycle pay bump is if you can justify it with dollars earned/dollars saved. Maybe allude that your friends keep referring you to their internal recruiters but you really like where you're at. Don't make any threats about leaving
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Oct 7, 2021 05:17
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Doesn't sound like that job is really worth moving to, tbh.
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Oct 7, 2021 07:50
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Wibla posted:Doesn't sound like that job is really worth moving to, tbh.
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Oct 7, 2021 09:16
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(Bursting into a thread I've never interacted with before but have seen in ads, thanks.) Any tips for negotiation with local government jobs? I imagine those are probably a lot less flexible. I just had a great second-round interview for a computer-touching city bureau position and would not be surprised by an offer soon. But I've started to do more research about the position (kinda late, I know) and realized that the salary range given in the job listing is not actually the range I could expect to be offered at starting, but is in fact the lifetime salary cap for that job classification. My current salary is within that range but it's closer to the top than the bottom. If they offer me the bottom as a standard entry point, it'd be a massive pay cut. But a little more digging shows that city policies technically allow them to offer more. Is it a fool's errand to think that they might actually budge on negotiations?
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Oct 7, 2021 15:12
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Grumpwagon posted:
Hadlock's advice is good. I'd also note: 1. Off-cycle takes time. It's sometimes faster finding a new job. 2. Unlike new job, having a number in mind is important. Being vague or leaving it up to management will mean a 25% adjustment becomes 15% becomes 10% as it moves up the chain. It's better to have a realistic number in mind and build in the fact that it will probably get whittled down. It's unlikely to be a back and forth negotiation. Usually it's a fire and forget kind of thing. 3. I have never worked anywhere where a manager has authorization to raise salary on their own. It usually has to go up to the org VP or even higher. So think at that level when you bring it up. 4. Timing matters. Is your group doing a bunch of hiring? That's a good time. 5. DON'T wait for raise time. That's the worst time to ask for a significant adjustment. Raise time managers have firm budgets and no one wants to use political capital then to ask for more. All that said, if you really are between "I'd like to stay here" and "My market rate is higher than what I'm at, but not by 30%+" then you should absolutely bring it up! I've been able to do significant adjustments for people in the past and have gotten them myself. One of the nice things that can come out of it it being told "No" and now being armed with a firm idea of what your current workplace values you at. Lockback fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 15:26
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wizzardstaff posted:(Bursting into a thread I've never interacted with before but have seen in ads, thanks.) Any tips for negotiation with local government jobs? I imagine those are probably a lot less flexible. Most gov jobs I've seen have a grade and step based pay scale. The job will have a grade level that can't be changed, but you may be able to negotiate what step you come into. The downside though is once you hit the highest step there's no where left for your salary to go. Promotion to a new grade is the only way to earn more. You should be able to find that info on the city website. Some positions might not be in a grade/step payscale, if that's the case I would not expect to be hired at anything above the 25% mark of the pay range. Here's a doc from the City of San Antonio about how they handle this stuff. https://www.sanantonio.gov/Portals/0/Files/EmployeeInformation/ADs/AD4-13A.pdf It's really sad about city/county jobs. They used to be a good place to work, you made a little less money, but the work life balance, job protections, and benefits usually made up for it for some people. My local gov's are underpaying so badly right now they can't keep people. Benefits have been slashed, and the traditional pension is pretty much gone.
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Oct 7, 2021 15:57
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From the SH/SC Infosec thread:Volmarias posted:Want a cushy government job for half of market rate and no possibility of promotion? Like the comforting idea of a pension, but with the anxiety that it may go bankrupt before you draw a cent? How about coworkers that would be literally unhireable anywhere else? System administration for a local government may be for you!
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Oct 7, 2021 17:26
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lol thank you both 
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Oct 7, 2021 17:33
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wizzardstaff posted:(Bursting into a thread I've never interacted with before but have seen in ads, thanks.) Any tips for negotiation with local government jobs? I imagine those are probably a lot less flexible. I'm in the same position, had a great interview for a government role with a set salary range and I'm hoping for an offer soon. I've worked there before and it's only a 12 month contract, so I'm going to push for being at the top step of the salary band because I don't care if it doesn't move from that point. You can definitely ask.
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Oct 8, 2021 00:11
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Vegetable posted:I had a funny negotiation recently: Got an offer from a company that was much lower than expected. Told them I had another offer that was 23% higher. Recruiter took a day to talk to compensation team, called me, said they could do literally nothing. Couldn't move even a dollar.
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Oct 8, 2021 18:25
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Partly that and partly also what OP said, they know their strategy is to pay below market and they aren't interested in competing on price for employees.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:01
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Anyone had success negotiating a more relaxed schedule in lieu of salary? I'm guessing the initial offer I'll get is going to be about 30% less than I currently make, and I'd actually consider it if I can swing a solid work life balance. Its not something I've had hammered out in a negotiation before, just had the usual platitudes from a company saying they know it's important etc. Is that even realistic or is it basically roll eyes, jack off motion, no we won't consider a 4 day work week instead of matching salary?
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Oct 8, 2021 22:24
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Yeah it's pretty much that last thing as far as I've ever known or heard. Whatever exceptions to the norm you might successfully negotiate, hopefully it goes without saying that it has to be in writing, or it doesn't exist.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:33
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This may not be helpful, but every successful move to 4 day work weeks I've heard of has been from someone who had already proven to an employer how valuable they were/had a very specific skillset that couldn't be lost, and they basically made an ultimatum that it was 4 days or 0 days.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:46
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Alternatively, move to the Netherlands.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:18
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Some companies may have policies to allow this already so it’s worth asking about. I’ve worked at multiple places with compressed work weeks or extended leave options.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:20
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Hadlock posted:I wouldn't move for less than 20% more than your current salary Lockback posted:Hadlock's advice is good. I'd also note: Follow up to these two things, as I find myself in a similar boat: Is it fine to talk about needing a raise but state that I am willing to wait until raise time, or is that the same as nothing and you'll be forgotten? Do I start with a number, or do I say "Need raise" and then wait for later to say a number? Do I have to be available to answer questions? I have time off coming up soon and was thinking of putting it out there before I run to avoid the immediate friction of the act because I am a massive loving coward. Even if my boss can't grant the raise himself, I still go to him, right? If and when sending out a number, do I still aim high or does the fact that they know what I make make that less advantageous and I need to just determine my market? I certainly am not going to threaten to leave, but do I reiterate that I want to stay or does that weaken my position? Basically help me money please my family is dying.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:25
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I have a friend who works in, basically the QA department of the mainframe division at IBM for the last 16 years, about 8 years ago she realized she doesn't have the personality for management, so every year she's traded X amount of salary bump for extra vacation days; at this point she doesn't have a formal 4 day work week, but she's gotten about as close as she's going to get at a major blue chip company It's possible but unlikely unless you have a really good relationship + unique skill set My buddy is one of three people in the world who knows how this $1mm/year piece of software works, he mostly noodles around with medium format cameras and guitars all day in a third world country and rarely works even a half day on Fridays At another job he'd probably just be another 9-5 m-f coder drone
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Oct 8, 2021 23:27
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Magnetic North posted:Follow up to these two things, as I find myself in a similar boat: Do you want a raise, or do you need a one time cash infusion? You could ask for a merit bonus to cover a hospital bill. I've seen cash rich startups grant 10% of someone's annual salary up front, on top of starting bonus to cover certain life events etc If you want a raise start telegraphing this to your boss asap. Raises and bonuses are assigned months if not quarters before they're awarded. If you want a substantial raise in March (Q2) you needed to have started telling him the first week of September (end of Q3). The CFO gets salary estimates from the VPs, who get theirs from directors, who get theirs from performance reviews of managers. Managers and directors get a pool of money to distribute, so you need to be on their radar early to make sure you get the distribution you want. If you wait until the last minute they're not going to have much leverage to squeeze more blood from the stone, unless you're the star employee and the company would collapse without you
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Oct 8, 2021 23:36
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Hadlock posted:My buddy is one of three people in the world who knows how this $1mm/year piece of software works, he mostly noodles around with medium format cameras and guitars all day in a third world country and rarely works even a half day on Fridays Is he uh... interested in training someone? 
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Oct 8, 2021 23:36
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Why would he dilute his job security by 33%  I guess technically I and a handful of other people know how it works, at a high level still, but haven't touched the product in years
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Oct 8, 2021 23:40
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I mean more when he's getting ready to retire
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Oct 8, 2021 23:41
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Hadlock posted:Do you want a raise, or do you need a one time cash infusion? You could ask for a merit bonus to cover a hospital bill. I've seen cash rich startups grant 10% of someone's annual salary up front, on top of starting bonus to cover certain life events etc Sorry the family dying was just a joke alluding to the dril tweet. I just want a raise so I can loving retire some day, and Covid has stolen a few opportunities for that. Otherwise, I guess I'll try to figure out how to ask soon, hopefully next week.
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Oct 9, 2021 00:12
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A "bigger raise" and an adjustment are different things. Are you looking for 6% instead of 3% or can you make the argument you should be making 20% more for the job you're doing now? If it's the latter, is there a reason your not looking for another job? If the market doesn't match your salary desires you need to realize that and better your position through new skills or whatever. I'd suggest talk to your boss and tell him you feel you are somewhat under market and would like to work with him to remedy that because, gosh darn it, this place is like a family and I love it here. Keep positive, don't threaten to quit or get another job directly. That'll make a lot of managers defensive and start thinking about replacing you. Don't do this around raise time. If that's coming up soon, congrats you missed it. If you want a specific number that is 15%+, I suggest having that number in mind (maybe goose it up a little but keep it realistic). This is a very different negotiation than a job offer, there won't be a back and forth and it's very likely they just call your bluff. You won't get feedback until it happens. Having hard data here helps. Recent revenue, projects where time or money was saved, things like being a go-to trainer plus doing your job, etc. You will be working with your boss but they won't be there decider. You've been paying attention to the things you're VP keeps prattling on about in meetings right? That's the stuff you need to use. It'll take a while. Probably 2-6 months, leaning on the longer. You might here "Sure, we'll do something" then get nothing. You'll need to (positively) stay on top of it and not be a coward. That said, I recently secured a 30% bump for one of my outstanding engineers, another for an engineer who didn't really even ask for it, and I've gotten a few 25%+in my career that justified me not leaving. That said, I was also willing to leave which improved my implicit position. For many that's going to be the easiest route.
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Oct 9, 2021 06:51
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Thank you for the tips. I don't want to leave because I like where I work, the work I do and the team I am with. It's the first time I've had that in my entire working life and I don't know if I will ever get it again. Also, I am still learning and growing in this position which I was not in my previous job and want to make the most of that opportunity. Still, I know I have to be the one watching out for my bottom line, since no one else will. I will reconsider leaving if I have to, but I'd rather just get paid more here. Based on my research, I should be getting like 18-20% more than I do currently based on where I live. (Note: I probably started beneath my value despite being perfectly satisfied with that value at the time because I said a number, never say a number people). That's a big amount, which is why I've been hesitant to broach the subject. Lockback posted:Don't do this around raise time. If that's coming up soon, congrats you missed it. How soon is soon? Nothing concrete has been put down yet but they are talking in the early in the new year, so that's 3-5, maybe even 6 months away. That'd be in the timeframe you quote, so that makes me feel like now is the time.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:06
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If they don't have dates for raises yet (seems weird) then bring it up sooner rather than later.
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Oct 9, 2021 14:22
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yeah i mean at my joint there's an annual raise process, everyone is very aware of it, and coming in off cycle and asking for a raise would probably raise a few eyebrows and cause people to question your judgement however lots of places are not like that! it kind of depends on the normal compensation process there
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Oct 9, 2021 17:20
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I don't know if this is a result of collective bargaining, but in my old place, management had a set budget for raises at raise time. If so, you will essentially be competing for this with everyone else, and internal politics makes it less likely that you will get a large chunk of it. If it's possible to go off schedule, it could make it easier on that way. As a side note, the written agreement made sure that the budget was a hard floor and usually the actual raises were above budget because of the local union reps.
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Oct 9, 2021 20:55
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Every place I've ever worked was the same thing and they were not Union. Raise time was a set budget usually equal to ~3%. Promotions and adjustments were a different budget though.
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Oct 9, 2021 21:32
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Lockback posted:Every place I've ever worked was the same thing and they were not Union. Raise time was a set budget usually equal to ~3%. Promotions and adjustments were a different budget though. I worked at a place like this, and their annual retention was awful
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Oct 9, 2021 22:18
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3% just means not passively reducing your pay, because that's about the annual CoL increase.
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Oct 9, 2021 22:22
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Lol this is my workplace too. 2-3% cap on annual "raise", and the raise is dependent on performance. So basically no raise ever, and your CoL increases are held hostage. Yay for public sector research. Retention is not great, and hiring is getting harder and harder as the FAANGS have started setting up shop. Also the actual cost of housing has been going by more like 10-15% per year... That said, everyone I work with is unusually respectful and chill and I love the work, both for the challenge and for having small but measurable impacts on patient care. It's also a union shop, and while I'm too high level to be allowed in the union, my conditions of employment do benefit from the collective agreements. And there's a defined benefit pension plan, which is nice, but I ran through their calculator, and even if I worked there until retirement, it's gonna be a stretch. Still, in many ways it's a position I could comfortably stay in until I retire. But, I kinda replied to a recruiter on LinkedIn a while ago, and it sounds like I'll be chatting with a local Biotech that's just coming out of the start-up stage. (Well, they IPOed a year ago.) I have friends working there, and have had good working relationships with a lot of people there in the past (including group leaders and the CTO), so I'm at least confident the work environment will be good. (And enough of them know me to trust that I'm easy to work with.) Also the pay is likely to be a lot better, and there are benefits like a fitness allowance, corporate-arranged daycare (possibly on-site), plus stock options, pension plan, annual bonus, etc, none of which I'm currently getting. Anyway, this thread has been super helpful, and I probably should have read it earlier. The recruiter is pretty chill, but I did volunteer my salary early on in the process, which may have been a mistake. Yesterday he also kinda asked me for a number, "because the HR person likes a ballpark figure". I honestly had no idea, but he suggested a number based on his experience, and cross-checking with Glassdoor kinda confirms it. I let him run with that, with a whole lot of asterisks. In particular, I have word that they have an as yet unposted position they may want to offer me that's a little better than the one the recruiter is trying to get me into. Anyway, the number he named is probably 30% more than I'm making, maybe more if the stock does well. So I sorta named a number, but not really. Also my BATNA is really good, because I do love my current job. So let's see what happens. (Also I'm trying to be a little circumspect, because the person I'd most likely be working with/for is a Goon, although I don't *think* he reads this thread.)
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Oct 9, 2021 23:48
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So I don't have much business knowledge, and I want to make sure I'm understanding the pathway this company I'm considering is taking. They are a healthcare company with a specific niche that's been bought out by a capital firm, the firm put the ceo and most of the leadership in place, and they are aiming for growth to the tune of 200-600 employees from about 150 right now in the next 2 years. From what the COO said during the interview, they are looking to capitalize in the next 2-3 years... That means sell right? Seems like unless I'm getting above market rates I shouldn't hitch my wagon here as the work on growth alone will take a considerable amount of my workload (I'm in HR) and there's a decent likelihood I'll be out on my rear end afterwards. The opportunity to be involved with mergers and acquisitions does sound tempting though.
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Oct 10, 2021 00:25
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Capitalization means "start covering expenses with revenue instead of startup or parent company funding". Doubtful they'd sell so fast if they were just bought by another healthcare company. Also, I've been on both sides of a sale and it's usually less a big deal than it's made out to be. The biggest layoffs I've been part of had nothing to do with sales. That said HR is more vulnerable than software engineering. However, capitalization here probably means become profitable, not selling. Edit: wait what kind of firm? I misread and thought you said healthcare firm. Even if it's private equity they usually hold on to new acquisitions for 4-6 years. Going through that kind of growth and capitalization can be real good for your career, but it is a rollercoaster. Lockback fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Oct 10, 2021 |
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Oct 10, 2021 02:37
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gbut posted:3% just means not passively reducing your pay, because that's about the annual CoL increase. Yep, this is exactly why I wanted a raise at my last place. It was clear I was greatly overachieving compared to their expectations, and I wanted my compensation increased to reflect that. They disagreed, and now I make a lot more somewhere else.
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Oct 10, 2021 16:00
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Hadlock posted:I worked at a place like this, and their annual retention was awful Same - they wanted it that way, though.
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Oct 10, 2021 19:58
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but: I currently work at a mature pre-IPO startup. I'm interviewing at a family office. Salary hasn't been discussed yet but I know what benefits are on the table. How do I translate the (potential) worth of my current stock options into hard numbers for a salary requirement at the new place?
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Oct 12, 2021 01:21
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Drink and Fight posted:Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but: However you want that makes you feel good and excited about the new place.
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Oct 12, 2021 05:08
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