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Is there anything at all in previous movies that suggests that ramming something with a huge ship going at nearly the speed of light wouldn't cause a huge amount of damage? Because there is absolutely nothing to me about the Holdo maneuver scene that is unintuitive or hard to parse. Big ship going really fast is going to do damage. What is the problem, exactly? It ruins your sweet sweet tactical realism in a series that features heroes bringing swords to gunfights?
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Oct 14, 2021 02:29
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No Mods No Masters posted:I’ve been watching the 80s adaptation of that. It’s excellent but I feel it’s probably going to get too depressing to stick with
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Oct 14, 2021 02:29
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TheLoquid posted:Is there anything at all in previous movies that suggests that ramming something with a huge ship going at nearly the speed of light wouldn't cause a huge amount of damage? Because there is absolutely nothing to me about the Holdo maneuver scene that is unintuitive or hard to parse. Big ship going really fast is going to do damage. What is the problem, exactly? It ruins your sweet sweet tactical realism in a series that features heroes bringing swords to gunfights? I remember the complaint was that it made no sense because if they can do that then why doesn't everyone just hyperspace ram their ship into whatever they want to destroy not taking into account, you know, how of a waste of material/fuel/life/etc. that is outside of an extreme circumstance like we saw in Last Jedi.
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Oct 14, 2021 02:40
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It's by far the most effective weapon we've been shown short of a death star. Now granted after star wars 9 it's pretty much a moot point, every ship can and should just have a death star laser
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Oct 14, 2021 02:47
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I maintain that the reason the Holdo manuver annoys people is that it's literally the only bit of manuvering or whatever that Holdo does up to that point. It's also the reason we focus so much on her interaction with Poe. There's nothing else to look at or enjoy about that part of the movie. If there'd been attempts to lose the pursuers, or make them pay for being too bold, or even just anything more than both fleets driving in a straight line...something like 'The Enemy Below' or 'Master and Commander' but in space, we would have a sense of a) why Holdo is in charge and why Poe should listen to her and b) A sense that she is throwing everything in her bag of tricks at the First Order. Then the Manuver would feel earned, or at least an act of genuine desperation. As it is, she simply stays the course, doesn't tell anyone what she's doing and those two things mean her plan fails. Basicallly, it's a script that makes everyone look pretty dumb. TLJ is a really interesting movie with a few good ideas (it also looks gorgeous) but it really needed a rewrite just to tie it all together better.
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Oct 14, 2021 03:08
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Snowman_McK posted:If there'd been attempts to lose the pursuers, or make them pay for being too bold, or even just anything more than both fleets driving in a straight line https://i.imgur.com/yWvOVUQ.mp4
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Oct 14, 2021 03:35
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I love Star Wars to death, but the physics of Star Wars is not loving serious business.
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Oct 14, 2021 04:54
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TheLoquid posted:Is there anything at all in previous movies that suggests that ramming something with a huge ship going at nearly the speed of light wouldn't cause a huge amount of damage? Because there is absolutely nothing to me about the Holdo maneuver scene that is unintuitive or hard to parse. Big ship going really fast is going to do damage. What is the problem, exactly? It ruins your sweet sweet tactical realism in a series that features heroes bringing swords to gunfights? It’s precisely the opposite. On a plot level, you are of course correct: the character just crashes her boat into the enemy boat, doing some fairly significant damage but ultimately delaying their attack slightly. So why do people dislike it? People generally don’t understand why they like or dislike things, so they’ll say that the crash is bad because it breaks the plot of Star Wars. In actuality, it’s bad because it breaks the narrative of Star Wars. Why is the act of crashing a boat into another boat depicted as the single most “insanely epic” thing that has ever happened in the entirety of Star Wars? There’s simply a dissonance between what happens and how it happens, like if the scene where BB8 shoots coins at a guard were the climax of the film. The soundtrack goes dead silent as the guard topples over in slow motion, crash-zoom into an extreme close-up on his eye or something. Cut to Palpatine reacting with utter astonishment before passing out. Rey screams “IMPOSSIBLE”, etc. It’s completely out of step with everything else going on.
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Oct 14, 2021 04:55
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I watched Rise Of Skywalker, and I'm sure the first time I watched it someone said something like "red 5 is transmitting" when Rey is flying Luke's X-wing but I didn't hear it this time. Possibly I just missed it (God knows the drat thing goes a mile a minute) but I wonder if they updated it for streaming to remove "red 5" (possibly confusing to new viewers) and replace it with "Luke's old x-wing" (everyone knows who Luke is!)
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Oct 14, 2021 05:04
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cuntman.net posted:thats actually why it sucks. hes not some superhuman best pilot ever hes just a guy, thats the whole point of the character. the way the sequels worship the ot is weird and dumb Yeah the first movie establishes that he doesn't know what a parsec is, the second that his attempts to repair his ship make it worse, etc
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Oct 14, 2021 05:50
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cuntman.net posted:thats actually why it sucks. hes not some superhuman best pilot ever hes just a guy, thats the whole point of the character. the way the sequels worship the ot is weird and dumb He does pull off some pretty impressive poo poo in Empire- the Falcon flipping around and knife-edging its way through canyons and what not is notable considering it is a ship for hauling cargo and not a starfighter. He's also a screwup and frequently gets into trouble but he and Chewie do know how to fly a boat at least.
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Oct 14, 2021 09:24
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Please identify your animes, we don't all know this stuff
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Oct 14, 2021 09:31
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Han being a shady fuckup who likes to run his mouth is there as a way to make it surprising every time he pulls off some incredible feat on the basis of sheer bravado, no matter how many times it happens.
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Oct 14, 2021 09:33
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RotJ established at least that you needed to take the shields down to do any ramming. We get multiple shots focusing on ships splattering harmlessly on the shields of the big cruisers at Endor (the set up), And then see the A-Wing take down the Executor when it’s shields are taken down (the payoff). So it’s pretty well established that shields make ramming irrelevant. Really all Johnson had to do was just have one line about someone turning off the shields for whatever technobabble narrative excuse.
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Oct 14, 2021 09:34
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galagazombie posted:RotJ established at least that you needed to take the shields down to do any ramming. We get multiple shots focusing on ships splattering harmlessly on the shields of the big cruisers at Endor (the set up), And then see the A-Wing take down the Executor when it’s shields are taken down (the payoff). So it’s pretty well established that shields make ramming irrelevant. Really all Johnson had to do was just have one line about someone turning off the shields for whatever technobabble narrative excuse. I mean we previously saw fighters and the Falcon losing shields or having trouble keeping their shields up not through getting specific generators taken out but just from getting shot a bunch. I always assumed the little impacts we see in the big space battle in Jedi aren't completely harmless, just not enough against the mass of a big capital ship.
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Oct 14, 2021 09:38
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Maxwell Lord posted:I mean we previously saw fighters and the Falcon losing shields or having trouble keeping their shields up not through getting specific generators taken out but just from getting shot a bunch. I always assumed the little impacts we see in the big space battle in Jedi aren't completely harmless, just not enough against the mass of a big capital ship. The falcon is also not the most top notch ship, there are several lines where people call it junk even in the OT The hyperspace ram is dumb because: Shields are a thing You can't use the argument that no one knew it wasn't going to work It invalidates space battles now because what's to stop either side from just making dense drone cruisers to just hyperspace ram anything they want to kill. It's one of those things that visually looks amazing, it's a very beautiful scene. The problem is that it causes a ton of issues, it's not something that should have been able to have been done as is. There were other ways they could have gotten the exploding scene he wanted
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Oct 14, 2021 11:19
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The Millennium Falcon is meant to be an incredibly fast and effective ship, when it's working, because it's also a tricked-out project car that's more or less under constant modification and repair and basically made of jury-rigs and last minute patches as a result. And Han isn't its original owner. It's basically a souped up second hand bootlegger. This was all pretty canon in the EU, apparently one book makes a point of how thanks to said constant repairs and modifications the Empire has three completely different sensor profiles for the Falcon over just a few years.
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Oct 14, 2021 11:28
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Maxwell Lord posted:Please identify your animes, we don't all know this stuff Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Die Neue These Episode 21
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Oct 14, 2021 12:35
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Even the biggest space nerds are perfectly willing to suspend disbelief about star wars being ww2 in space, even though that makes no sense, as long as you don't draw attention to it. The Holdo Maneuver drew attention to it, it specifically says 'hey, did you know a FTL drive is a weapon of mass destruction?' It's one of those things that future Star Wars media are just going to have to ignore entirely as a possibility or be sentenced to coming up with lame explanations as to why it won't work this time. it's always like 'hey why don't we find some old freighter and ram it on top of palpatine's base'
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Oct 14, 2021 13:15
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Nodoze posted:Shields are a thing i think video games have majorly inflated how effective these "shields" are supposed to be. x-wings regularly blow up to a single a burst of laser fire
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Oct 14, 2021 13:16
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It looked amazing and that's about all that matters.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:17
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that's stupid though, it's like 'why try, just watch the transformers' star wars didn't get to where it is by not trying
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Oct 14, 2021 13:18
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Its less stupid than canon.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:19
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euphronius posted:It looked amazing and that's about all that matters. So because it LOOKS good it's ok to screw up past and future movies? That is lunacy, at that point why have cannon at all Nebalebadingdong posted:i think video games have majorly inflated how effective these "shields" are supposed to be. x-wings regularly blow up to a single a burst of laser fire An xwing would not have the same shield capability of a gigantic star destroyer Nodoze fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 13:22
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Nodoze posted:So because it LOOKS good it's ok to screw up past and future movies? That is lunacy, at that point why have cannon at all Agreed. Also lol at "future movies". Maybe at this rate. Probably just more D+ shows.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:23
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Nodoze posted:
For the same reason they didn't already just have a load of tractor beams to trap enemy ships helplessly in space, used photon torpedoes instead of nuclear weapons, and clustered up close together instead of shooting lasers at each other from hundreds or thousands of miles away. It's established that a regular-rear end ship can reach the speed of light or close to it (there's no way the Falcon could have gotten to Bespin from Hoth otherwise) so why didn't they blow up the death star by just accelerating some missiles to relativistic speed?
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Oct 14, 2021 13:27
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Nodoze posted:An xwing would not have the same shield capability of a gigantic star destroyer in Empire a Star Destroyer gets clobbered by an asteroid if i remember right seems like star destroyer shields protect them from fighters, not big stuff e: similarly, fighter shields protect them from small arms fire, not other fighters
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Oct 14, 2021 13:30
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They must have done that scene when Pablo was out on a sick day.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:31
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2house2fly posted:For the same reason they didn't already just have a load of tractor beams to trap enemy ships helplessly in space, used photon torpedoes instead of nuclear weapons, and clustered up close together instead of shooting lasers at each other from hundreds or thousands of miles away. It's established that a regular-rear end ship can reach the speed of light or close to it (there's no way the Falcon could have gotten to Bespin from Hoth otherwise) so why didn't they blow up the death star by just accelerating some missiles to relativistic speed? I know your being sarcastic but yes thats actually a problem. Why not just hyperdrive several star destroyer into the death star if one isn't big enough Shield piercing torpedoes was another problem Rian Johnson introduced. When Kylo Ren is shooting at the Rattis he shoots missiles right through the in/out shields where the ships are. I can't remember any prior instance of that in the OT or PT Nebalebadingdong posted:in Empire a Star Destroyer gets clobbered by an asteroid if i remember right The star destroyers bump into each other at the very beginning but don't go down. The TIE fighters explode when they get hit by asteroids. TIE fighters also generally don't have shields Nodoze fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 13:40
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Wasnt he just so close that he was inside the shields.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:42
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Nodoze posted:The star destroyers bump into each other at the very beginning but don't go down. The TIE fighters explode when they get hit by asteroids. TIE fighters also generally don't have shields That was a glancing hit, not a direct collision and actually, TIE Fighters not having shields is purely a EU thing I think, right?
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Oct 14, 2021 13:49
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It would make sense for them to not have shields because they're clearly incredibly expensive to produce (the entire death star only has like a dozen TIE fighters available to defend it at the end of episode 4) so they'd want to cut corners anywhere they can
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Oct 14, 2021 13:52
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I really don't understand the hate directed at the Holdo manouvre stuff, I mean the movie prior established that hyperspace was instant and you can just travel inside 3 different planet atmospheres halfway across the galaxy in the space of 15 seconds like you're in the middle of Star Tours ride. That was much more egregarious and immersion breaking to me. The fact it was the heros most valuable capital ship, huge, and didn't even destroy the enemy, just winged them, seemed like it would be a tactic that couldn't be used unless extremely desperate anyways.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:55
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the death star was so big that most of the TIEs ran out of fuel before reaching the trench
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Oct 14, 2021 13:56
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The low numbers of ties was obviously just a production limitation.
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Oct 14, 2021 13:58
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The rebels fire an ion cannon at a star destroyer and it goes down instantly. So why aren't all their ships equipped with ion cannons? Why didn't they just fire ion cannons at the death star to stop it firing?
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Oct 14, 2021 13:59
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:the death star was so big that most of the TIEs ran out of fuel before reaching the trench lol it's funny, but TIEs seem evenly matched to X-Wings without numerical superiority and X-Wings and the supposedly heavily shielded Y-Wings often go down from a single hit! So why should I assume TIEs don't have deflector shields like every other craft? Nebalebadingdong fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 14:05
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2house2fly posted:The rebels fire an ion cannon at a star destroyer and it goes down instantly. So why aren't all their ships equipped with ion cannons? Why didn't they just fire ion cannons at the death star to stop it firing? this is absurdly tedious but you think it's really clever lmao (the ion cannon is a massive ground-based installation that can only ranges as far as low orbit)
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Oct 14, 2021 14:05
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2house2fly posted:The rebels fire an ion cannon at a star destroyer and it goes down instantly. So why aren't all their ships equipped with ion cannons? Why didn't they just fire ion cannons at the death star to stop it firing?
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Oct 14, 2021 14:06
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The shields arent a perfect sphere around the ships and they can go down if they get hit enough
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Oct 14, 2021 14:06
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