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Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Siivola posted:

Thinking about this more, the actual weird oversight with the rules is that IRL, handguns are pretty difficult to aim compared to rifles.
I think this was usually addressed with the range increment, where a rifle would have good accuracy out for fifty, a hundred yards whereas a pistol would usually be more like ten. ('Good accuracy' here is defined as 'you roll your skill, not half-skill'.)

I don't think you're supposed to roll if you're in a situation where the target can't or won't take evasive maneuvers or isn't far enough away that you might legitimately miss.

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Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?



Dr. Lunchables posted:

That’s why they separated handguns from rifle/shotgun. Separate skills for separate tasks.

Interestingly Delta Green, the one where your characters are more likely to really pore over their gun choices then go on a room clearing party deliberately, squishes them back together into "firearms."

To model the fact that it's easier for the novice to have more points of control and contact, I'd probably make the base untrained level 10% higher for longarms if I were president of percentile systems.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Okay yeah those are both reasonable solutions and I just didn't think this through. Thanks!

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Charlz Guybon posted:

Force equals mass times acceleration. It would seem axiomatic that the more force a person is hit with, the worse it will go for them.
I mean, even with five seconds thought, one might note that if a bullet hits you and goes clean through, then the bullet has not lost that much momentum - and ergo less force has been transferred to you - than if a bullet hits you and stops dead.

That's not from me being a gun nerd (I'm not), that's simple Newtonian physics, I am sure there are other factors to consider.

Dr. Lunchables
Dec 27, 2012

IRL DEBUFFED KOBOLD



Simulationism is how we ended up with d20. And we don’t want d20, do we?

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017
Any game with HP as linearly scaling meat points will eventually run into trouble trying to model the ability of a weapon to kill a large creature in one shot. A weapon capable of such a thing is also capable of nuking smaller creatures with less HP, making it the obvious choice not only for big game hunting but for general purpose gunfighting. 99 percent of RPG gear list entries are pointless because the players gravitate toward the one with the highest damage. Concealability doesn't matter for monster hunting. Capacity doesn't matter because most gunfights in CoC/DG are over in a couple turns. Cost of exotic weapons and ammunition like nitro express isn't something you can "balance" around in an ostensibly realistic setting where someone can just choose a wealthy background for their character. Even Delta Green with its relatively slim gear list suffers from this. In the game system an M14 or FAL is just straight up better than an M16 or AK due to the larger damage value. The big upsides of the intermediate cartridge (lower weight, lower recoil) aren't mechanically simulated.

Ultimately I don't think it's that big of a problem for the players to grab bigger and bigger weapons in response to being attacked by monsters, as long as they don't just resort to preemptively burning down haunted houses and dynamiting secret temples instead of investigating them. Escalating paranoia and procuring weapons to deal with creatures is core to the genre itself. In Whisperer in the Darkness, the guy responds to increasingly aggressive Mi-Go and cultists by buying a bunch of guns and filling his yard with savage dogs - a transparent attempt to cheese the action economy by giving himself more attacks per round and more targets for the enemy to shoot at.

Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?



This turn of the thread got me thinking about the guy who 20 years ago when Counterstrike was the hotness wanted to play a sniper-specialized guy who was armed with an "AWP canon" in our Delta Green game.

The vaunted Arctic Warfare Magnum was of limited use against the machinations of the Mi-Go.

So yeah in general I agree let them get jump through the hoops paying off smugglers or filling out requisition forms to their higher ups to get their era-appropriate "big game/warfighter" hardware.

May turn out that the Maxim they used their handsome credit rating to get and mount on a bespoke pintle on their Falcon Knight Roadster is less useful than a few hours learning how to scribble an Elder Sign.

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017
Automatic weapons can be quite effective in CoC, even against creatures with supernatural damage resistance, due to dealing damage per-bullet. A monster that takes a single point of damage per bullet can be quickly reduced by a group of players dumping a magazine to it every turn. This can lead to weird situations, like the Dark Young being immune to explosives but vulnerable to enough guys with ordinary rifles.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Charlz Guybon posted:

Force equals mass times acceleration. It would seem axiomatic that the more force a person is hit with, the worse it will go for them.

This is one of those things the science is still out on. We know with relative certainty that putting a bullet in someone's heart, spine, or brain is going to kill or disable them very quickly. The ability of a bullet to hit the heart, brain, or spine depends principally on how deep it can penetrate through tissue and bone, and the shooter's, gun, and incident weather condition's ability to put make the bullet hit one of those three areas. The ability to actually penetrate soft tissue depends on the hydrodynamic drag of the bullet and the velocity, while bone is typically measured in the energy required. So maybe bullet damage should scale with velocity. Or energy. But the ability to place the shots on target depend on the design of the bullet and firearm, the felt recoil impulse, and local weather conditions. So maybe powerful rifles should have low damage because you can't hit the heart/brain/spine as easily with them.

But wait! There's other ways bullets can incapacitate a target too. Maybe. We don't really know. Maybe you can destroy enough tissue to cause the body to enter a kind of shock that results in death. Or maybe you can cause shockwaves to travel up the blood vessels and cause a small concussion to the brain. Or maybe you can cause enough tears in muscle tissue to cause quick exsanguination. Or maybe none of that stuff really matters, and it's all about hitting the spine/heart/brain. Maybe a random blood clot occurs. Maybe the bleeding causes shock and death to occur, but not like, right now while you're fighting the guy. Maybe you need to shoot him in the kidney to cause intense pain, or maybe a hit in the lung will cause him to stagger to the ground because he can't breathe properly.

And even if that stuff matters, you can argue that if you shoot someone in the chest with a .22 LR and a 10 mm Auto, the 10 mm Auto is clearly going to have a higher chance of killing someone--but if you shoot someone in the hand, does the exact size of the hole in his palm really matter? Sure, one's slightly bigger but there's only so much blood coming out anyway. Is that the lower bound of damage? What if you shoot someone twice in the same hand, is that as good at shooting them once in each hand? Punches don't penetrate tissue or bone at all and don't gouge holes in the brain, spine, or heart, but can clearly kill.

So how do you model all this? The US Armed Forces tries to create models for all this back in the 50s and 60s, and the result was horribly complicated exponential equations with nearly a dozen variables worked out by hand by undergrads, all jammed into a massive computer program that would raytrace any given gunshot through the average human body in an attempt to figure out which vital areas were hit and which of the hundreds if not thousands of variables to incorporate into the final equation.

There exists a tabletop roleplaying game that tried to use this model--or one very like it--to achieve true realism in firearms handling. It had a supplement of twenty straight pages of tables to figure out exactly how wounded your character was. (For firearms. There was a separate supplement, about as long, for stabbing, cutting, and blunt weapons.) It was called Phoenix Command and it has a not undeserved reputation as unplayable.

It's still not entirely clear if all this makes Phoenix Command realistic, or just models the mistaken assumptions a bunch of people from the 1950s made while throwing hand grenades at live goats and calling it science.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually
There are a whole bunch of systems (most from the 1980s) which are full of really detailed rules for firearms combat in an attempt to be realistic: Morrow Project, Aftermath, GURPS (with all the bells and whistles and the Tactical Shooting supplement), Millennium's End, Twilight:2000, the aforementioned Phoenix Command, and many others.

They largely fell out of favor because there was no real evidence that the systems they used were any more "realistic" than OD&D's rules about combat rounds taking one minute and all weapons doing 1d6 damage.

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017



Just got done reading a Defector article about this new bareknuckle boxing promotion. Been banned since 1889, the new one's been in business for 3 years and they just had their first guy killed in the ring. Pro MMA fighter (over the hill and not a great record, but still) and he was punched to death inside of a minute. If you modeled the other washed-up MMA guy who killed the other guy as a PC he should be able to one-shot pretty much any human opponent. I'd imagine that's true of about any skilled combat sport professional.

But like, I don't think you can get a character to that level of kungfu badassery in unarmed in base CoC without resorting to insane cheating. Looks like you need a SIZ+STR of 33 or better to get a measly +1d6 on top of 1d3. I think that makes your character literally as big as a truck, though I can't find the charts on how SIZ scales. I think I recall looking up a character with 15 and having a laugh as that number was listed as 'as big as a large hog'. Anyway, that plus 100% in brawl gives you like a combined 25% chance of doing 9 damage, which gives you a CHANCE at a knockout. I've also neglected to figure out how dodge impacts these numbers

Probably significantly less than a 1/8 chance for a character that is inhumanly big, inhumanly strong, and preternaturally skilled at combat being able to cold cock any random doofus you could meet in this game. Which is to say, I generally come up with damage for different weapons on the spot when the character selects them, discuss it and once everyone is happy move on. That ZARDOZ complaint about everyone just using big guns, give someone who wants to swing a chair leg the damage to make that a legit choice for them. I had a player play a Jim Thorpe/Shoeless Joe type washed up ball player. They wanted to use a bat, bats suck, I said 'Put a nail in it. Good. Flat +1 damage and now it can impale.' They were a fucken beast after that.

Same with guns, I know there are stories about soldiers getting riddled with bullets and holding off the opponents but we give those guys Bronze Stars because of how rare that is. Getting shot once is usually a one way trip to the hospital if not morgue. Rolling combats where someone's been shot three, four times, in the space of a few minutes and is still standing slinging lead downrange always seemed a little lame. All that talk about 'what makes a shot a kill shot', none of this is modeled in the base rules except for impale damage, but why not have your to-hit roll influence damage? An Extreme success (or maybe just a 1/100 crit) should drop anything mortal even if it's like, a squirrel rifle.

Video games get around this by having PC HP and damage be way out of scale of the NPC enemies. You of course don't want the PC's to be realistically fragile but extending that to NPCs leads to weirdness where every knife and bullet seems like it's made of rubber and gunfights become a chore, and I think that's a fair criticism of the base rules, but the second the rules get confining, ditch em.

NutritiousSnack posted:

Seems more The Thing inspired

PipHelix posted:

Basic idea is... it's the Thing. It's exactly The Thing.

If 'that's the joke.gif', my apologies. If nothing else I'm happy with it as a writing exercise. Got a whole module out of one bowler's viral aphasia attack

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017



I must have deleted it when I copy pasted the quotes, but 10 armor for the Rhino, there's your problem. Is that not insane?

I don't think I've ever done a module where the baddie had more than 1 point of armor, and that's usually supernatural creatures. Ghouls get 1 point against gunfire, and none against melee, right?

E: Firearms do half damage it looks like, based on the first thing I googled. Nevertheless half of 10 is 5 points of damage, as opposed to 0 with a rhino's flat 10 points of armor.

PipHelix fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Oct 11, 2021

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017
Does Call of Cthulhu not have any kind of armor penetration mechanic, like a bullet that ignores X points of armor rather than just adding additional base damage?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



mellonbread posted:

Does Call of Cthulhu not have any kind of armor penetration mechanic, like a bullet that ignores X points of armor rather than just adding additional base damage?
I don't remember it being inbuilt but you could easily house rule it, although I would be inclined to say it would depend on the origin of the 'armor'.

Dr. Lunchables
Dec 27, 2012

IRL DEBUFFED KOBOLD



The easiest way around this is obviously GM fiat. But rifle or high velocity rounds “ignore X points of armor” would make the most sense. Heavy rounds and high velocity rounds aren’t generally considered when talking about body armor, let alone physical armor, like the rhino.

But yeah, the problem isn’t granularity with bullet caliber, it’s that the rhino automatically ignores all damage less than ten. A handgun shot in the eye will kill almost anything, but only if we ignore DR.

The problem isn’t the gun, it’s the rhino.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010

mellonbread posted:

Any game with HP as linearly scaling meat points will eventually run into trouble trying to model the ability of a weapon to kill a large creature in one shot. A weapon capable of such a thing is also capable of nuking smaller creatures with less HP, making it the obvious choice not only for big game hunting but for general purpose gunfighting. 99 percent of RPG gear list entries are pointless because the players gravitate toward the one with the highest damage. Concealability doesn't matter for monster hunting. Capacity doesn't matter because most gunfights in CoC/DG are over in a couple turns. Cost of exotic weapons and ammunition like nitro express isn't something you can "balance" around in an ostensibly realistic setting where someone can just choose a wealthy background for their character. Even Delta Green with its relatively slim gear list suffers from this. In the game system an M14 or FAL is just straight up better than an M16 or AK due to the larger damage value. The big upsides of the intermediate cartridge (lower weight, lower recoil) aren't mechanically simulated.

Ultimately I don't think it's that big of a problem for the players to grab bigger and bigger weapons in response to being attacked by monsters, as long as they don't just resort to preemptively burning down haunted houses and dynamiting secret temples instead of investigating them. Escalating paranoia and procuring weapons to deal with creatures is core to the genre itself. In Whisperer in the Darkness, the guy responds to increasingly aggressive Mi-Go and cultists by buying a bunch of guns and filling his yard with savage dogs - a transparent attempt to cheese the action economy by giving himself more attacks per round and more targets for the enemy to shoot at.

I mean, I don't really agree with this. A .577 nitro express elephant gun is probably the best if you are sure your hunting just one large monster, but how sure are you that that's going to be the case? What if it has a lot of smaller, faster more agile minions? Sure, your Holland & Holland can blow them in half if it hits them, but you only have two shots before you have to reload. And the recoil is going to be murder, I know that in Trail of Cthulhu you have to roll athletics in order to stay upright after firing it. A Lee Enfield with it's ten round magazine is going to be better in most circumstances. Large magazine, high rate of fire, easy to aim and hits hard enough.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010

PipHelix posted:

Just got done reading a Defector article about this new bareknuckle boxing promotion. Been banned since 1889, the new one's been in business for 3 years and they just had their first guy killed in the ring. Pro MMA fighter (over the hill and not a great record, but still) and he was punched to death inside of a minute. If you modeled the other washed-up MMA guy who killed the other guy as a PC he should be able to one-shot pretty much any human opponent. I'd imagine that's true of about any skilled combat sport professional.

But like, I don't think you can get a character to that level of kungfu badassery in unarmed in base CoC without resorting to insane cheating. Looks like you need a SIZ+STR of 33 or better to get a measly +1d6 on top of 1d3. I think that makes your character literally as big as a truck, though I can't find the charts on how SIZ scales. I think I recall looking up a character with 15 and having a laugh as that number was listed as 'as big as a large hog'. Anyway, that plus 100% in brawl gives you like a combined 25% chance of doing 9 damage, which gives you a CHANCE at a knockout. I've also neglected to figure out how dodge impacts these numbers


You just need to explain that away by having Dr. Erskine flee Germany early and set up his vita-ray machine at Miskatonic University. :eng101:

EDIT: When you think about it, Erskine is definitely the most Miskatonic like of any professors in the MCU

Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Oct 12, 2021

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017

Charlz Guybon posted:

I mean, I don't really agree with this. A .577 nitro express elephant gun is probably the best if you are sure your hunting just one large monster, but how sure are you that that's going to be the case? What if it has a lot of smaller, faster more agile minions? Sure, your Holland & Holland can blow them in half if it hits them, but you only have two shots before you have to reload. And the recoil is going to be murder, I know that in Trail of Cthulhu you have to roll athletics in order to stay upright after firing it. A Lee Enfield with it's ten round magazine is going to be better in most circumstances. Large magazine, high rate of fire, easy to aim and hits hard enough.
In my experience, most GUMSHOE player characters have Athletics maxed, along with Health and Stability. A couple points is a price worth paying to end a fight faster. Although I believe ToC also handles damage values differently, with the most and least powerful firearms in the game only separated by a few points of max damage. Which is one way to avoid getting into the weeds about which round has more muzzle energy or produces greater wounding effect when it tumbles in flesh.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

PipHelix posted:

Just got done reading a Defector article about this new bareknuckle boxing promotion. Been banned since 1889, the new one's been in business for 3 years and they just had their first guy killed in the ring. Pro MMA fighter (over the hill and not a great record, but still) and he was punched to death inside of a minute.
Justin Thornton suffered a spinal injury and died days later in the hospital from a lung infection.

tanglewood1420
Oct 28, 2010

The importance of this mission cannot be overemphasized

mellonbread posted:

In my experience, most GUMSHOE player characters have Athletics maxed, along with Health and Stability. A couple points is a price worth paying to end a fight faster. Although I believe ToC also handles damage values differently, with the most and least powerful firearms in the game only separated by a few points of max damage. Which is one way to avoid getting into the weeds about which round has more muzzle energy or produces greater wounding effect when it tumbles in flesh.

Gumshoe splits firearms by cartridge size into small (d6 dmg), heavy (d6+1 dmg) and very heavy (d6+2 dmg). Practically this means most pistols and semi-automatic rifles are d6+1, most automatic weapons are d6+0 and d6+2 is only for specialised and rare weapons like a .50 cal MG or an anti-materiel rifle. Anything more granular than that is against the spirit of the system.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010

mellonbread posted:

In my experience, most GUMSHOE player characters have Athletics maxed, along with Health and Stability. A couple points is a price worth paying to end a fight faster. Although I believe ToC also handles damage values differently, with the most and least powerful firearms in the game only separated by a few points of max damage. Which is one way to avoid getting into the weeds about which round has more muzzle energy or produces greater wounding effect when it tumbles in flesh.

tanglewood1420 posted:

Gumshoe splits firearms by cartridge size into small (d6 dmg), heavy (d6+1 dmg) and very heavy (d6+2 dmg). Practically this means most pistols and semi-automatic rifles are d6+1, most automatic weapons are d6+0 and d6+2 is only for specialised and rare weapons like a .50 cal MG or an anti-materiel rifle. Anything more granular than that is against the spirit of the system.

Yeah, I like the recoil roll, but I don't like that. :D

Fill Baptismal
Dec 15, 2008
My group of (very, literally done like two Fear Itself one shots)novice players wants to do Delta Green because it turns out the books are in a lending library we have access to.

I was going to run it and the Last Things Last mission seems like a good place to start. My question (and it’s possible I’m just overthinking this, I ran one of the one shots but that’s it in terms of experience) is: I’m concerned that, given the brief of “You’re operatives for a government program that deals with spooky poo poo. See if there’s any here and contain the situation if there is.”, they will immediately see the woman in the tank, fill it with kerosene and call it a day. Because like, that’s probably what you would in fact do if you were in that position, working for that organization, encountering a zombie woman locked up underground .

I’m just worried that that will be it and it’ll be an anticlimax. I was thinking of giving the thing the ability to shapeshift to look like a healthy (or at least not-dead) older woman and create more ambiguity. Or have the family show up halfway through if things were moving too fast, forcing them to deal with a adult daughter who hears her mother’s voice screaming for help.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



In older editions, guns were largely handled by offering three pages of choices while a third of the monster library ignored firearms or capped bullet damage at 1 HP.

Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?



Fill Baptismal posted:

My group of (very, literally done like two Fear Itself one shots)novice players wants to do Delta Green because it turns out the books are in a lending library we have access to.

I was going to run it and the Last Things Last mission seems like a good place to start. My question (and it’s possible I’m just overthinking this, I ran one of the one shots but that’s it in terms of experience) is: I’m concerned that, given the brief of “You’re operatives for a government program that deals with spooky poo poo. See if there’s any here and contain the situation if there is.”, they will immediately see the woman in the tank, fill it with kerosene and call it a day. Because like, that’s probably what you would in fact do if you were in that position, working for that organization, encountering a zombie woman locked up underground .

I’m just worried that that will be it and it’ll be an anticlimax. I was thinking of giving the thing the ability to shapeshift to look like a healthy (or at least not-dead) older woman and create more ambiguity. Or have the family show up halfway through if things were moving too fast, forcing them to deal with a adult daughter who hears her mother’s voice screaming for help.

Yeah throw in a son in law visiting the property or curious hunters or something if they don't debate/agonize as much as needed over the petrol party. Also have her try to get loose and make a chase of it natch.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

moths posted:

In older editions, guns were largely handled by offering three pages of choices while a third of the monster library ignored firearms or capped bullet damage at 1 HP.

Which is both a lazy way to artificially inflate the threat levels of the monsters and is also actually somewhat inaccurate to the source material in the first place

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017



Siivola posted:

Justin Thornton suffered a spinal injury and died days later in the hospital from a lung infection.

Fair enough, I elided that point, but I think if the discussion is about the degree to which these systems lump the infinite variability of life into a few modelable outcomes a CoC fight that would end "within a minute due to permanent paralysis from spinal trauma, followed by a month in hospital followed by death" is the same as saying 'One-shot KO/kill' given that, again, you have two options for putting an combatant out of combat and a combat round is canonically a minute.

Not to minimize what happened to the guy, or the way in which it happened. It's super gross and barbaric!

It was only to illustrate that you can be in the 'fair to middling' category of professional fighters and straight up kill a 'middling to poor' professional fighter inside of one minute (or, paralyze and send down an inevitable monthlong journey to the grave within one minute). Again, all these guys are only subjecting themselves to that exploitation because they can't make it among the top tier of the combat sport they washed out of. And, they are presumably not TRYING to murder each other. There are layers and layers of better talent above the dude who killed a professional fighter in one minute, (one hopes) inadvertently.

So a skilled PC brawler fighting life-or-death should be able to bring down almost any human opponent they can close on within a hit or two, is the only point I was making. If someone's players are all going ranged and all opting for one kind of gun it's probably time for some house rule special sauce.

PipHelix fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Oct 12, 2021

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017



Fill Baptismal posted:


I was going to run it and the Last Things Last mission seems like a good place to start. My question (and it’s possible I’m just overthinking this, I ran one of the one shots but that’s it in terms of experience) is: I’m concerned that, given the brief of “You’re operatives for a government program that deals with spooky poo poo. See if there’s any here and contain the situation if there is.”, they will immediately see the woman in the tank, fill it with kerosene and call it a day. Because like, that’s probably what you would in fact do if you were in that position, working for that organization, encountering a zombie woman locked up underground .

I’m just worried that that will be it and it’ll be an anticlimax. I was thinking of giving the thing the ability to shapeshift to look like a healthy (or at least not-dead) older woman and create more ambiguity. Or have the family show up halfway through if things were moving too fast, forcing them to deal with a adult daughter who hears her mother’s voice screaming for help.

I found it kind of straightforward and on-rails-y. The challenge for us was our DM said the tank had only one opening so we'd have to open the tank to pour the gas in through the escape hatch. Probably because we were all super aware that having had nothing bad happen to that point, this had to be the monster. We had our gun guy shoot a hole in the tank and shine our flashlight around and get a look at the thing. My PC had the idea to tell the 'woman' to get close to the airhole to stay alive while we 'figured things out', then had the gun guy plant one in her brainstem through the hole (it was an extreme success) once her mouth was against it, then dumped the kerosene through the bullet hole. She had enough HP left to bust out but another player hit her with a truck the second she jumped clear and that was that.

Personally, I think the fact that it was 'visit empty apartment, find clues to cabin, visit empty cabin find clues to tank' plus the fact that the only NPC you interact with is at the very end of a oneshot telegraphs very hard what's coming. I like the idea of bringing other NPCs in so that it's not as clear what the woman's role in the module is.
We also hit a deer with the truck on the way in, that on the way out came alive the same way the woman had, but we all said hell with it and gunned it out of the woods. Unsure if that is in the book or if they threw it in to give us another combat opportunity. Maybe the immortality slime or whatever infects the local wildlife, the team has to engage a couple woodland beasts like deer or a bear on the way to the cabin, or maybe its a siege of the cabin. The woman could claim she'd only just recently jumped in the tank to hide? Our DM kinda gave the game away when the woman said it was her husband (who'd been dead for days now) who put her in the septic tank (generally have atmospheres that would kill a human within seconds).

Anyway, just trying to make it not super obvious that the woman is the one and only fireworks factory in that module I think would have the best return.

E: Thinking about it, the septic tank is probably the biggest giveaway. The guy was motivated by love to save his wife, this is basically Pet Sematary. Why would he bury her in literal poo poo? Why not find her like, chained to a radiator in the back of the cabin, looking sick and disheveled as you probably would? With some modifications to the dead man's instructions it could seem equally like he's having the team kill a wife he hated and tortured rather than put down the person he tried and failed to care for all these years. Make it less obvious what is the 'right' path.

PipHelix fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 12, 2021

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



drrockso20 posted:

Which is both a lazy way to artificially inflate the threat levels of the monsters and is also actually somewhat inaccurate to the source material in the first place

It's a relic of the time's game design. Guns tended to be overpowered, and late 80s design was a catalog of choices - of which people only took the most powerful.

Reducing damage to 1HP was good design in that context, since the source material rarely solved problems with firearms.

Herbert West, Reanimator explicitly titled part III "Six Shots by Moonlight" because emptying a revolver into a monster had no effect. This is, arguably, one of the first examples of a game emulating its genre mechanically.

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017
Last Things Last is a cakewalk if run as-written for genre savvy players. There are a couple ways to spice it up without totally rebuilding the encounter at the end. The creature in the septic tank can share secret knowledge that the players actually want, encouraging them not to kill it. You're justified in metagaming a little here to come up with a convincing offer, since the monster knows things it has no way of knowing. Alternatively, the lady in the septic tank might be telling the truth. She's just a normal woman with her lifespan artificially extended, the dead agent kept her in there because he's an rear end in a top hat.

Ultimately if your players are jaded enough to immediately understand that the septic tank is full of danger, they probably don't need an introductory adventure, and you can run a module with a little more meat on its bones instead.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

PipHelix posted:

So a skilled PC brawler fighting life-or-death should be able to bring down almost any human opponent they can close on within a hit or two, is the only point I was making.
Fair enough. In 7th edition, you only need to deal half a character's hit points in damage to force a CON roll to stay conscious. If you have a positive damage modifier, you don't even have to roll particularly hot to do that because Joe Average's total is 10 or so.

Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?



I'm actually planning to run LTL this Saturday for two newbies and one guy who's intimately familliar but agreed to play dumb for the first sesh of an ongoing campaign. I already wanted to make some changes to keep him on his toes.

I think for a start I will have Baughman's cache include a machine pistol and some stuff that's specifically tied into scenarios I plan to run in the future.

Also the septic tank thing is so iconic for anyone who's played before I'm going to ditch it entirely and go with Pip's suggestion. She's chained up in the cabin basement, and less obviously zombiefied. Baughman rented a backhoe and dug a firebreak ditch all around to burn the whole loving thing down with accelerant but alas couldn't do it.

If things are progressing a little too zippy, I will add in some hunters stopping by to see what the commotion is. I also like the idea of a deer collision on the way up, and am snagging that.

Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Oct 12, 2021

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017



Siivola posted:

Fair enough. In 7th edition, you only need to deal half a character's hit points in damage to force a CON roll to stay conscious. If you have a positive damage modifier, you don't even have to roll particularly hot to do that because Joe Average's total is 10 or so.

Ahh ok, I'm aware of the half-damage mechanic, in my head the average HP was higher. I haven't run through a bunch of characters in a while, my fragile scientist nerdlinger character has 11 or 12 I think? He tries not to get himself into situations where how many HP he has is relevant :)

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010
Today I learned that Call of Cthulhu sells more copies in Japanese than all other languages combined, including English. Also, the average Japanese player is a woman between 17 and 35. :cthulhu:

However, I've also learned that they almost all play in the modern period. I can understand not wanting to deal with the wars and the political instability leading up to them, but I would think the Taisho period would be quite ripe for role playing.
https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/call-of-cthulhu-rpg/news/call-of-cthulhu-dnd-japan-rpg

Some nice art here
https://imgur.com/a/L76LU#fctZxs1

Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Oct 13, 2021

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
Raidou Kuzunoha and the Necronomicon.

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!
I have sort of the seed of an adventure without the actual plot of it. Can anyone suggest where to take this idea and expand it into a full scenario?

The idea is that the investigators are in the classic Cthulhu 1920s-30s era, either already part of an investigator organization or soon to be one. They are called upon to investigate a curious discovery unearthed in a 2 billion year old shale deposit in West Texas.

In the layer, perfectly preserved, is a 2021 Tesla Model 3 registered to a young woman from 2024, said woman's skeleton, a 2026 iPhone 16, and, in the back seat, a 3d printed aluminum dodecahedron covered in indecipherable swirls and mathematical equations, mounted upon an aluminum plate. Upon the plate is laser-etched a curious diagram containing mathematical equations and symbols that are completely unknown to the early 20th century, and upon whose vertices are written the investigators' names.

The woman is a 26 year old physics PhD candidate from UC Berkeley. In her phone are a series of recordings of her last days, and a final clip of the last moment when she found herself 2 billion years in the past.

I don't really know where to go with this idea, but I think it'd be amusing to have the players role play as people from the 1930s encountering 2020s era technology for the first time. I'd appreciate any tips or ideas for an actual plot!

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010
Is the phone solar powered? Otherwise I'm not sure it could be powered by a downtime outlet.

Also, this stuff is obviously not fossilized, since it's in working condition. It must have been teleported in recently. So, the woman must have been long dead or recently killed in such a way that it stripped the flesh from her bones.

Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Oct 15, 2021

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017





Not to be a spoilsport but I don't think too much of 2020 technology would survive 2 billion years. If she's buried, maybe a lava flow hit her, but you're still not really going to have any salvageable technology. If she's in a coal seam that means she was buried in like a swamp or bog. The dodecahedron has the power of plot though, so what is your plan for what this is and how it works? It it like a forcefield, temporal bubble or something? How did it preserve the tech but the woman is a skeleton?

PipHelix
Nov 11, 2017



Here's an idea, the skeleton is outside the field. Fossilized into the coal, with the car perfectly preserved in a geode-like cavity.

https://theconversation.com/billions-of-years-ago-the-rise-of-oxygen-in-earths-atmosphere-caused-a-worldwide-deep-freeze-139722

Seems like earth 2 billion years ago would kill any modern life pretty quick, so she went back in time, accidentally wandered outside the protective bubble and dropped dead. OR she's not dumb enough to walk out into a deoxygenated lava field, stays in the car but can't get back to the future. The force field of the dodecahedron protected her. For hundreds of thousands or even millions of years until she went insane from sitting in a model 3 and looking at the same pictures on her phone for longer than humanity's entire lifespan, walked outside the bubble, took a big old breath and put an end to it.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
"It's an eternity in there!"

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Vox Valentine
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Realtalk you should look up the scenario Artifact Zero and mash that up with your idea, that would be a neat twist to put on 2000s stuff ending up in the 1920s if the T-radiation exists before it's properly discovered.

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