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The latter definition is what it's supposed to mean but it has very much functionally become what what he said, yeah.
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Sep 14, 2021 07:45
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There are people like that though. They pop up on SA every so often. And considering how there have been a number of authoritarian states justifying their authoritarianism with nominal leftism, it's not really a surprise for there to be people out there who take the same philosophy to heart. Possibly there are even some people in various corners of the internet who are somehow paid to white knight for their respective authoritarian governments. I'm not really sure how that's supposed to work, but I've heard rumors. And then the other common angle is people who with their own sense of American exceptionalism that the US as the greatest possible evil in this world, therefore anyone or anything in opposition to it is fully justified in whatever bad that happens. I guess there's also people who get real stuck into the idea of a revolution and all the people who need to be murdered and get real excessive about the need for lots of murder, which dovetails into authoritarianism, but that's kind of a separate conceptual thing from people shilling for already extant governments.
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Sep 14, 2021 16:44
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SlothfulCobra posted:There are people like that though. They pop up on SA every so often. And considering how there have been a number of authoritarian states justifying their authoritarianism with nominal leftism, it's not really a surprise for there to be people out there who take the same philosophy to heart. Possibly there are even some people in various corners of the internet who are somehow paid to white knight for their respective authoritarian governments. I'm not really sure how that's supposed to work, but I've heard rumors. Exactly. Just go to any random CSPAM thread and you'll find them.
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Sep 14, 2021 17:19
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And nevertheless, on the internet, you're much more likely to be called a tankie, for example, for not supporting legitimate president Guaido unconditionally than actually for being a dastardly cspam tankie
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Sep 14, 2021 17:41
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It just means "not a libertarian and not a chud" in practice, which is online because I've yet to hear someone complain about it in real life. Sure there's a formal definition with a history and whatever, but the fact is that anybody clinging to that is going to end up like people going to #CubaSOS rallies and wondering why they're surrounded by Proud Boys and millionaire jet ski dealership owners all waving Trump flags. If you're gonna write a doctoral thesis on the subject you'll definitely need to know this, otherwise you're just gonna confuse people and they're gonna think you've got no idea what you're talking about. It's not even like it's especially present in any one ideology versus any other excepting ones that never got anywhere beyond theory.
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Sep 14, 2021 18:16
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GimmickMan posted:There are enough vocally rightwing Peronists in the party right now that I have no doubt they would've gladly participated in any number of the monstrosities that the oligarchy of Argentina has been perpetuating since its inception. Hell, Pichetto was part of PJ's leadership until two years ago and he said "We should vindicate the conquest of the desert" like a week ago. We're in agreement that PJ behaves much like said oligarchy and mostly only take progressive policies when they can coopt any systems resulting from them to their own ends. Why? because the PJ is hand in hand with the same economic groups, lobbyists, media conglomerates, repressive structures etc. that the non-PJ elite also rely on to govern. The single largest incident of wealth leaving Argentina through financial manipulation in the post-war era happened 100% directly because of the policies of a Peronist government. Every time the Peronists come back into government they deal with the same big industrial interests, and dictate economic policy in order to protect those interests. Kircnher was best friends with the Clarín group until whatever kickback agreement they had broke down. Then big media conglomerates became the sworn enemy of government from one day to another. But not friendly media conglomerates like Grupo Oktubre, which is far from the size of something like Clarin, but does continue to inexplicably grow (and doesn't fully pay its employees or even have them on permanent legal contracts). I don't necessarily think that the PJ is "losing the culture war in the capital". In CABA the Peronists have never been strong, but in the greater Buenos Aires as a whole they are still dominant. Just like in the rest of the country, the majority of municipalities are held by Peronists (if not all of them are Kirchnerists or presently Kirchnerist aligned). The Juntos Por El Cambio coalition is full of Peronists. As you yourself noted, their candidate for vice-president was a Peronist. Macri himself has said that Perón would have been in Cambiemos, Vidal says she deeply admires Evita, etc. Cambiemos has already been in government, and it was also a mismanaged disaster. The Kirchnerists were able to sweep in after them easily. If the Kirchnerists lose the presidency in 2023, I'm sure that by 2027 there will be a Peronist president (even if they are not necessarily Kirchnerist). Why do I say that they are the most reactionary? Because they kill any sort of popular movement at the root. While the "traditional conservative elite" (for lack of a better word, the non-Peronist elite) operates on a distinct level from that of popular organisations, Perón was intelligent enough to establish his repressive mechanism at the "lowest" possible level. Prior to Peronism, the traditional elite faced serious threats of worker organization, threats that were met with street violence and the usual methods of repression seen in many other countries. By co-opting the trade union movement, Perón neutered any potential organized opposition to his own rule, and at the same time became the master of an effective political weapon (mass demonstration/action). By cloaking themselves in the language of the working class, by espousing "progressive causes", by appropriating the resources and infrastructure of the state, the Peronists are able to establish a much more well-oiled machine than the traditional elite has ever been able to operate. In many places, people depend on their day-to-day livelihood on handouts arbitrarily controlled by party operatives, just as 100 years ago they would have depended on company script. Poverty is necessary to the Peronist system, which is why it always increases under Peronist rule.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:18
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no hay camino posted:It seems to me that Latin American countries have a general problem with their economic power being concentrated in a few capital cities, and this goes back to colonial times when the port cities acted as waypoints with Spain to extract wealth from the interior. I think Galeano talks about that in Las Venas Abiertas de América Latina. The Argentine reddit forums are particularly bad. They're disproportionally filled with IT-industry Buenos Aires upper middle class 30somethings. Its grown in popularity recently and its actually gotten better compared to before, if you can believe it. I still don't recommend going there with any sort of regularity. Its no surprise that they will hold views like the entire Conurbano being filled with supposed worthless poor people who apparently just sit around all day watching football until they have to ballot stuff for the Peronists every two years. Do not expect any sort of level of debate about as to why the conurbano may be poor, as to why these people keep supporting Peronism, or as to why the non-Peronist governments also didn't really bother to fix the problems of the conurbano. They're over the moon right now, between the general juntos por el cambio victory and the strong Milei showing in CABA. There is another shitposting subreddit which has some good memes though.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:27
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Does life in general suck for the middle class on top of all of this?
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Sep 14, 2021 20:00
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Grouchio posted:Does life in general suck for the middle class on top of all of this? This is part of the reason why someone like Milei can come out of nowhere and get 14% of the vote in CABA on what is little more than an incoherent protest platform. There is a lot of building resentment among the middle class, and a lot of those people were "burned" by the Macri administration when they say that it amounted to nothing. Of course, most are still going to throw their support behind whoever emerges as the chief of the non-Kirchnerist coalition for 2025.
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Sep 14, 2021 20:46
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I am going to save your posts on Argentina 101 for future reference. Many thanks.  One last thing - do you foresee any end to the current long-term stagnation of the country? Or will it continue as long as Peronism exists?
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Sep 15, 2021 00:24
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:There is another shitposting subreddit which has some good memes though. r/Republica_Argentina
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Sep 15, 2021 04:59
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:The middle class is being "squeezed out". Real incomes are down, real costs are up. A lot of prices are outright fixed in USD (property, imported goods). Between small wages and inflation, saving is pretty much impossible. It is effectively impossible for even a two-income middle-class family to acquire a home in a major city, especially Buenos Aires. Something like a new car is regarded as a luxury. These are historical trends and not just the fault of the current government. The middle class has been shrinking for decades. This is why Menem was so popular, he managed to reverse that perception through short-term monetary manipulation. Publicly-provided education and healthcare is increasingly inadequate. One of the first things people do when they get a little money (or one of the last things they cut) is private schooling for their kids. The cheapest private schools are almost all very religious (these are also subsidized by the government anyway, in some cases up to 80-90%). Most public hospitals and clinics lack all sorts of equipment and don't have staff. There are good hospitals, but they are quite expensive. If you do things properly in terms of declaring your income, pay your taxes, register your home at the appropriate value, etc. it becomes very hard to save any money on a "regular" income. Middle class people also have the perception that they are taxed a lot for what they receive in return in regards to public services, and although it is a bit of a meme, it is not entirely inaccurate either. The capacity and efficiency of state services are down, while taxation hasn't dropped at all. There are a lot of small taxes on many different things, and a lot of "temporary" or "one-off" taxes that have become de-facto permanent. At the same time, a lot of these taxes are also flat taxes or even regressive ones, very rich people essentially pay no taxes through a combination of loophole jumping and tax dodging, its an open secret and nobody cares. He was asking about Argentina, not America.
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Sep 15, 2021 05:24
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punk rebel ecks posted:He was asking about Argentina, not America. I mean, who do you think wrote the playbook on neoliberalism? We just follow America's lead on loving everything up. also id kinda disagree about the tankie tag not being useful online but its whatever because twitter tankies arent really political actors just obnoxious people
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Sep 15, 2021 06:43
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Dias posted:I mean, who do you think wrote the playbook on neoliberalism? We just follow America's lead on loving everything up. Are Bolivia and Venezuela the only two countries in South America that don't?
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Sep 15, 2021 06:47
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Just want to say that, while I do have minor quibbles with GoM's post, days like today where the Kirchnerism attempts an open Golpe Palaciego really loving sell what a shitshow of a party PJ is.
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Sep 15, 2021 22:14
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punk rebel ecks posted:True. uruguay, at least under mujica anyway
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Sep 15, 2021 22:42
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Alberto got thrashed in the elections.
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Sep 16, 2021 07:15
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In some ways, the US and Mexico have a similar history and in other ways they don't. Wow deep statement I know but I like to wonder why the two countries diverged. For example, the US and Mexico both had wars of independence driven by landholding elites born in the colonies. Criollos in Mexico, the "founding fathers" in the US. Both countries had to have conflicts to rest power away from these landholding elites as well. In the US, Southern slaveholders and their doughface enablers had a chokehold on the Presidency and Supreme Court and seceded when that power saw itself threatened by the emergent Republican party leading to the Civil War. I've heard it argued before that the Civil War was in essence a liberal bourgeois revolution, in the sense that it made the industrial elite of the North the primary rulers of the country. I agree with that idea. In Mexico, I would say this liberal bourgeois revolution had fits and starts. The Liberals under Benito Juarez made a start with diminishing the power of the Catholic Church and empowering the state, but the landholders or hacendados held onto and cemented their power under the Porfiriato. It's not until the Mexican Revolution and the new Constitution of 1917 - most importantly Article 27 that legalized land reform - and the presidency of Lázaro Cárdenas that this bourgeoise revolution was finally consummated. And by that point we're already in the 1930s! And along the way millions of deaths and economic ruin for the country as it struggled to accomplish it. I think this long process Mexico suffered to transition into modern capitalism is a main reason why the US seems to have advanced so much more than Mexico economically. And in a broader sense for other Latin American countries as well, sometimes with the US deliberately stalling the process. In some cases, the liberal bourgeoise revolution was jumped entirely - like in the case of Cuba - into socialism. In other cases, political parties that used socialist messaging and imagery like Lázaro Cárdenas's PRM were kind of ironically just consummating liberal capitalism, which perhaps also makes it not so surprising that the political parties that came after them were neoliberal. In more simpler terms, the US was able to overthrow its feudal landholding economic system a lot earlier than Latin American countries and transition into industrial capitalism, and I argue that this is a main reason why Latin America is underdeveloped compared to the US and Canada (lucky sons of bitches). E: this post is already tl;dr but I would say one of the main reasons why LATAM had delayed development was because of different geography, the influence of their colonial power, and foreign interference. The north of the US unlike the South couldn't facilitate an economy based on natural resource extraction, and an industrial economy based on manufacturing developed naturally. Ironically, we can even see the influence of geography on the Native Americans who lived there beforehand - just look at the difference between the Iroquois Confederacy vs. the Aztec and Incan Empires. Likewise LATAM countries had geography that focused on resource extraction which perpetuates itself as all the manufactured goods come from elsewhere and the landholding class smothers attempts at developing an internal economy of manufacturing. The English settlers of the North also had a heritage of questioning the Church and similar feudal institutions going back all the way to the Diggers, and had developed self-governance under the English before the American Revolution, whereas the Spanish suppressed freedom of expression and self-rule; fighting the power of the Church and its territorial holdings became a common theme in LATAM as well as developing rule of law. And then finally the US was able to fight off foreign interference while LATAM has been dogged by it since day one of independence - which I think comes back to having a dependent economy and a weak state. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 11, 2021 |
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Oct 11, 2021 20:52
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Well, after making that long spiel, I have a question of something totally different. Is anyone here from Brazil? It seems to me that African religions are way more predominant in Brazil than in other areas with black populations in the Americas. Even the popular music of Brazil like Os Tincoãs makes reference to Orishas and other West African gods which stands out. Nobody in the US makes music talking about Orishas. One way to interpret this is to think that black people have not been integrated into Brazilian society to the same degree as in other countries. Brazil was very late in abolishing slavery, how big of a racial divide still exists in Brazil? I suspect that the way I'm phrasing all this is a bit stupid but I'm going to ask anyway.
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Oct 12, 2021 01:03
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no hay camino posted:Well, after making that long spiel, I have a question of something totally different. I am not from Brazil but one thing I have heard is in addition to abolishing slavery very late, Brazil also abolished the slave trade very late and the labor they used slaves for (mostly sugarcane harvesting) is insanely deadly, so Brazil never established a "self-sustaining" population of enslaved people like the US did. This meant that at the time of abolition there were more people of African descent in Brazil who actually had memory of living in Africa than in the US, for example. However this seems like a bit of a just-so story to me even if I did read it and learn about it in college classes, so there's probably more to it.
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Oct 12, 2021 01:15
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The divide is huge.
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Oct 12, 2021 01:29
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Negostrike posted:The divide is huge. Let me put it this way, the black and white divide in Brazil makes the black and white divide in America seem tame. The American divide is akin to like Western Europe vs Eastern Europe. With whites living in a wealthier Western European country and blacks living in a poorer Eastern European country. The Brazilian divide is more akin to Southern Europe vs East Africa. Going by IHDI, life for a black Brazilian is only a notch or two (at most) better than the average Kenyan. And oh about the disparity in crime and police homicides? Those dwarf the rates found in the United States. Brazilian police are essentially what the alt-right dream of what American police should be.
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Oct 12, 2021 07:08
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no hay camino posted:Is anyone here from Brazil? It seems to me that African religions are way more predominant in Brazil than in other areas with black populations in the Americas. Even the popular music of Brazil like Os Tincoãs makes reference to Orishas and other West African gods which stands out. Nobody in the US makes music talking about Orishas. One way to interpret this is to think that black people have not been integrated into Brazilian society to the same degree as in other countries. Brazil was very late in abolishing slavery, how big of a racial divide still exists in Brazil? Brazil is a profoundly and violently racist country. But its quite different than it is on the USA, the division is not so clear, is much more subtle, "informal" (but at the same time, more brutal too, if you look at the prisons and police killing numbers, for ex) But about the importance of afro-brazilian religions here, I think is pretty much the opposite of what you are thinking: it show how african culture is integrated in our mainstream culture, in spite of all racism. Candomblé and its "whiter" sister Umbanda are quite popular among people of all classes, black, white, and others. And not only that: rituals from those religions, like jumping 7 waves to Iemanjá on the new years eve, are practiced by almost everyone, even catholics Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Oct 12, 2021 |
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Oct 12, 2021 11:56
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IIRC the Mormons gave up on at least some of their official racism policies when they started preaching in Brazil and realised there's absolutely no way to tell who has black ancestry and who doesn't.
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Oct 13, 2021 06:35
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One thing about the afro-brazilian religions too is that here, with the exception of the evangelicals (who believe the afro-brazlian religions are satanic), people are usually more open and flexible about those stuff than in the USA (also Europe, I guess) Is very common for catholics to perform some rituals from candomblé or umbanda, and even visit terreiros. And at the other hand, most candomblé and umbanda followers also go to catholic churches and follow catholic rituals and so on I have an aunt who was very catholic than went to spiritism and finally became a candomblé priestess (mãe-de-santo) Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 14:35
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From a few pages back... The best source of Latin American news in English is the jordina tinnerman blog. It should go in the op, honestly. Please consider donating too. http://latinamericadailybriefing.blogspot.com/
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Oct 15, 2021 12:56
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Elias_Maluco posted:One thing about the afro-brazilian religions too is that here, with the exception of the evangelicals (who believe the afro-brazlian religions are satanic), people are usually more open and flexible about those stuff than in the USA (also Europe, I guess) There's a lot of religious syncretism in Brazil, yeah. I'm not sure if it's by design on the part of the Catholic Church or if it's just because, despite there being an undeniable gap between the life of the average white and the average black person, at the end of the day a LOT of Brazil is black but passes as white and it's kinda hard to trace a divide based solely on the color of your skin here since outright federal-mandated segregation didn't happen here. It's the "1/16th Cherokee from my mother's side" meme but actually reasonable in context. It's not surprising that the more outright racist states are the ones that were intentionally whitened via selective imigration, and it's also where the Catholic Church is still pretty relevant.
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Oct 16, 2021 01:03
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I feel like I haven't heard anything about Venezuela in ages, is there anywhere I can get some reasonably reliable updates or does anyone here have a brief summary of the last couple of years?
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Oct 17, 2021 16:45
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khwarezm posted:I feel like I haven't heard anything about Venezuela in ages, is there anywhere I can get some reasonably reliable updates or does anyone here have a brief summary of the last couple of years? They just replaced all their currency, with one of the new Bolivars having the same value as one million of the old Bolivars, because literally everything cost millions of bolivar and it was making book keeping extremely difficult
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Oct 17, 2021 19:30
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Gripweed posted:They just replaced all their currency, with one of the new Bolivars having the same value as one million of the old Bolivars, because literally everything cost millions of bolivar and it was making book keeping extremely difficult Has anything gotten better? Has the refugee crisis abated at least?
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Oct 17, 2021 19:36
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It's of course more complicated than what I am about to say, but I think that it captures the essence of the historical research pretty well. The first thing is that while the US didn't abolish slavery until the 1860s, it did ban the slave trade in 1808. Meanwhile, in Brazil the African slave trade continued even after it was formally outlawed in 1850*. Something like almost 40% of all enslaved people brought from Africa went to Brazil. So in the US new slaves were born in the US. Not that the American system wasn't brutal, it was. But there was the concern of raising children to become productive slaves, which in turn meant that there was a concerted effort to wipe out elements of African culture and language among slaves. But, somewhat paradoxically, because slavery in Brazil was more brutal than in the US, there was also more tolerance for African culture and religions. Life expectancy for newly arrived slaves from Africa was 7 years. There was a lot less concern over things like language and religion because the slave wasn't going to live long anyways. The second thing is that, post abolition in Brazil, there was no effort to integrate or help former slaves at all. The US had the short lived period of reconstruction, which meant that in the US in the south former slaves, being given political rights and property rights, threatened the existing economic order in the south. Since in Brazil there was no reconstruction, the white land owning elite never felt any threat from the newly emancipated slaves. Which in turn means that in Brazil you never had a KKK or Jim Crow. * I think they changed it recently, but here's the logo and name of a big Brazilian supermarket chain  "Navios negreiros" were the ships that were used in the African slave trade to Brazil.
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Oct 17, 2021 20:08
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joepinetree posted:* I think they changed it recently, but here's the logo and name of a big Brazilian supermarket chain that reminds me of the mexican cupcakes. they recently changed the name to "nitos" 
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Oct 17, 2021 21:41
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Alex Saab finally got extradited so expect to hear alot about Venezuela once he starts talking about how the state finances work
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Oct 17, 2021 22:46
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i say swears online posted:that reminds me of the mexican cupcakes. they recently changed the name to "nitos" These are still sold in Spain:  You can find them in basically any supermarket.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:56
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Elman posted:These are still sold in Spain:  How racist are Peninsulares?
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Oct 18, 2021 04:44
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Grouchio posted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispaniola#Post-Columbian
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Oct 18, 2021 05:26
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I'm talking about Spaniards of the 21st century not genocider Columbo.
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Oct 18, 2021 06:59
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Grouchio posted:I'm talking about Tennesseans of the 21st century not genocider Jackson. oh sry my bad
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Oct 18, 2021 08:27
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Grouchio posted:
No you see, it's not racist because there's white chocolate covered ones:  Nothing to see here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPm413wmIW4
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Oct 18, 2021 09:02
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Elman posted:No you see, it's not racist because there's white chocolate covered ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UShiwymsX0w
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Oct 18, 2021 09:04
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