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Chillgamesh posted:I'm starting to think Emet-Selch surviving the Sundering had less to do with him being powerful and more with his specific ability to read souls and aether. There has to be a specific reason why he's the only one that made it through intact, when the only other two survivors were corpse-on-strings Elidibus and janky-rear end Lahabrea. It sounds like Lahabrea just got the space madness over time, possibly from not taking naps.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:53
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Nessus posted:Considering how hard pressed we and our bros were by Ardbert and his bros, and the fact that Ardbert and co. were able to beat the poo poo out of evil across all of the First, any spiritual/power difference is gonna be along the lines of "cannot do Ascian creation magic under your own internal power" or will be meaningless details like "they can't use the aetheryte as often as peeps on the Source". Or just ignorance. The Ascians fairly consistently point out we don’t know how to use the Echo properly. It might well be that Sourcers have greater creation magic/Echo potential strength, but simply don’t know the techniques to demonstrate that.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:57
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Dedekind posted:Or just ignorance. The Ascians fairly consistently point out we don’t know how to use the Echo properly. It might well be that Sourcers have greater creation magic/Echo potential strength, but simply don’t know the techniques to demonstrate that. Basically the First had to learn to do more with less so they are far more technically skilled it's just the Source only knows how to brute force since they don't care for efficiency kind of deal?
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Oct 20, 2021 16:59
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Nessus posted:I thought he had avoided self-sacrifice because he was kind of shepherding everyone's souls so that in principle they could eventually be reborn again, although this does somewhat conflict with the prospect of uplifted Ascians being reincarnations of those people. Maybe he just had a bunch of soul crystal-equivalents. The convocation members weren't sacrificed to Zodiark, and thus would have returned to the lifestream when dead. Since it's cyclical, those lifestream souls would eventually be born into new people, and the Ascians would be able to find / uplift them. It's the regular ancients that were sacrificed that were the problem, since Zodiark used them for fuel. They planned to have the restored, but there's no telling that's even possible at that point.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:01
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Dedekind posted:Or just ignorance. The Ascians fairly consistently point out we don’t know how to use the Echo properly. It might well be that Sourcers have greater creation magic/Echo potential strength, but simply don’t know the techniques to demonstrate that. e: "Also, the time machine doesn't count because they used old infrastructure and the help of an alien robot"
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Oct 20, 2021 17:06
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Chillgamesh posted:I'm starting to think Emet-Selch surviving the Sundering had less to do with him being powerful and more with his specific ability to read souls and aether. There has to be a specific reason why he's the only one that made it through intact, when the only other two survivors were corpse-on-strings Elidibus and janky-rear end Lahabrea. Lahabrea is mentioned to have been a lot more sane and like Emet-Selch back at the start, he's crazy now because he threw himself into the active part of their mechanisms. So when Emet was sleeping for thousands of years Lahabrea was managing the day to day operations and also dying again and again and again and again. That's why he's so far off his rocker comparitively. Elidibus survived presumably because Zodiark survived and they're technically the same being. Lahabrea and Emet are a big loving mystery, although it might get answered in the next expansion what with the raid being about Lahabrea. Everyone else was shattered into 14 parts. Nessus posted:I thought he had avoided self-sacrifice because he was kind of shepherding everyone's souls so that in principle they could eventually be reborn again, although this does somewhat conflict with the prospect of uplifted Ascians being reincarnations of those people. Maybe he just had a bunch of soul crystal-equivalents. Yeah, the Unsundered are continuous experiences from their lives as the Ascians in the Convocation, Emet slept and got depression, Lahabrea did not sleep and got crazy (also it's worth noting that the Ascian who messed up with the thirteenth shard (World of Darkness) is implied to have been Lahabrea's romantic partner in the same way Mitron and Lohgrif were, so that's probably part of why Lahabrea is so intent on personally managing the rejoinings and such), Elidibus forgot poo poo and is technically a Primal's Heart anyway. The rest of the Convocation got split into 14 soul shards, and those shards each were being reincarnated on the Source and the Shards. Gaia is as noted a reincarnation of a part of Lohgrif's soul, whoever Eden's Mitron was was a fragment of Mitron (and one Emet was okay with losing because the First was being rejoined anyway and they could always find a different Mitron Shard), the WoL we play as is a fragment of Azem. A big deal is that it's pretty much likely that a bunch of people still have Ascian Soul Shards, and the Echo is the result of it being awakened when they get soul memories of the Final Days for any reason. Meanwhile the Unsundered and the Sundered Convocation members were somehow capable of awakening Ascian Souls as followers who they used as minions and "starter villains" for their whole play both sides plotting that Elidibus conceived. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 17:13
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So a very small, unimportant thing I realized yesterday - The final dungeons of each expansion's patch cycle all have one thing in common: Keeper of the Lake Baelsar's Wall Ghimlyt Dark Paglth'an Can you figure out what all four have in common? While they may not always be the main focus on the dungeon, a large percentage of the enemies you fight in all four of these dungeons are Garleans. There's nothing really to be gleaned from this. Just thought it was an interesting trend.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:14
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The convocation members weren't sacrificed to Zodiark, and thus would have returned to the lifestream when dead. Since it's cyclical, those lifestream souls would eventually be born into new people, and the Ascians would be able to find / uplift them. I'd guess that beating up Zodiark and making him dissolve into aether might theoretically release the souls that currently comprise his form into the lifestream for reincarnation. Though I imagine he's still load-bearing even while imprisoned, and that getting rid of him outright would also release whatever set off the original calamity.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:19
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i've watched enough animes that i can say with confidence both zodiark and hydaelin will sacrifice themselves to power up the wol to let them access their true form to beat up the final days
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Oct 20, 2021 17:23
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Gruckles posted:Though I imagine he's still load-bearing even while imprisoned, and that getting rid of him outright would also release whatever set off the original calamity. This is my thought as well. Probably just can't kill him or Hydaelyn without weird poo poo happening.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:23
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a cartoon duck posted:i've watched enough animes that i can say with confidence both zodiark and hydaelin will sacrifice themselves to power up the wol to let them access their true form to beat up the final days They better not sacrifice themselves. I want to punch them to death!
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Oct 20, 2021 17:24
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Gruckles posted:I'd guess that beating up Zodiark and making him dissolve into aether might theoretically release the souls that currently comprise his form into the lifestream for reincarnation.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:27
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they sacrifice themselves after you punch them half to death
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Oct 20, 2021 17:27
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Eimi posted:Basically the First had to learn to do more with less so they are far more technically skilled it's just the Source only knows how to brute force since they don't care for efficiency kind of deal? More: people on the First are okay at playing bagpipes. People on the Source are very good at playing bagpipes. No one can demonstrate this, as all the bagpipes were destroyed in the Sundering, and the only people left who know how to make them will only sell us vuvuzelas so they can gloat about the fact we are lovely musicians. Less flippantly, the weakening could be limited to specific types of aetherial manipulations. If no one knows how that manipulation is even supposed to work, the strengthening from the Rejoining might not even be evident.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:36
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imo the main element we see of unsundered people being stronger is Emet-Selch, and he also has the whole immortal being thing in play so it's also vague. My speculation is that Ascian possession is another thing it can affect. Possessing people seems to be difficult if not impossible for most of them, and according to Emet-Selch, Lahabrea weakened himself by possessing people. Possibly it has something to do with the "weight" of their souls hence why the sundered can't do it. A dead person is probably an empty vessel and the Solus clones is probably a vessel uniquely suited to Emet-Selch, but just possessing living people impacted Lahabrea in the long run.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:55
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Argas posted:imo the main element we see of unsundered people being stronger is Emet-Selch, and he also has the whole immortal being thing in play so it's also vague. It's been stated that what was really damaging Lahabrea was dying over and over again without rest, so my guess is even though they escape a part of their soul ends up lost each time. The Sundered don't possess people because they don't really exist, the Unsundered (and alongside them the active Sundered) activate them via memory infusion that awakens the original Ancient from a fragment of their soul, but it's still the fragment inside the body. Presumably as a courtesy they only do it one at a time, but Mitron in the Eden raid series outright says he's been left the way he has because another Mitron can be awakened (who will likely not remember being Eden). Gaia basically was going to lose her own memories to gain the memories of Lohgrif, but once that Loghrif died they'd need to find another shard and awaken it. It's also possible the loss isn't necessary to gain but it seems implied to be the case.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:02
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I meant possess people ala Thancred. Point is that the soul of a person is A Thing that exists and the souls of the Source are likely weightier than those on the shards, and whether or not Lahabrea spent his time more on the Source than elsewhere, it did him no favors to do it.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:13
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I still think a big aspect of soul "density" is how receptive the owner is to external aetherial manipulation. People from the First seem a lot easier to turn/temper/corrupt into Sin Eaters or other aetherial mutants.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:20
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Jetrauben posted:I still think a big aspect of soul "density" is how receptive the owner is to external aetherial manipulation. People from the First seem a lot easier to turn/temper/corrupt into Sin Eaters or other aetherial mutants. This would make sense, more aether means it's harder to re-shape the entirety of their Aether. So someone from the First with a small density is easier to completely turn to Light, compared to the Source where the full effects of Aetherial reshaping only really happens in extreme situations (Leviathan can turn people into sea monsters with enough water aether alignment for example). Neatly also explains the Dragons and Ascians experience of Tempering by Bahamut/Zodiark compared to everyone else's experience of tempering. Their massive stores of Aether mean the amount changed by the tempering is relatively small.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:22
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I like the theory that Emet and Lahabrea survived the sundering by being on the moon when it happened. The dialogue in Amaurot implies that the ancients fought and defeated the first beasts. They just couldn't defeat the final beast without a "decisive sacrifice." But they tried. Maybe those two were the designated survivors in case the summoning failed?
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Oct 20, 2021 19:07
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I'd assumed that they'd fought their way through the gauntlet of Beasts and lesser terminus spawn to cast their great ritual of sacrifice.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:08
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Jetrauben posted:I'd assumed that they'd fought their way through the gauntlet of Beasts and lesser terminus spawn to cast their great ritual of sacrifice. I thought it was what they could see from inside the capitol as they desperately performed their ritual, hoping the beasts didn't break in before it was done as the world collapsed around them.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:11
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The final area of Amaurot is also interesting, because it does clearly imply that the Ancients had some sort of space capability - the shattered fragments of crystal are, what, remnants of an orbital platform? Or just an orbital ritual site to imbue the entire Star with a will?
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Oct 20, 2021 19:12
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Well that structure on the moon in the trailer looks like it was built by the Ancients. It might pre-date the Final Days? We'll find out. And the crashed spacecraft looked Allagan, but perhaps they attempted a moon landing and got shot down.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:15
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Jetrauben posted:The final area of Amaurot is also interesting, because it does clearly imply that the Ancients had some sort of space capability - the shattered fragments of crystal are, what, remnants of an orbital platform? Or just an orbital ritual site to imbue the entire Star with a will? Could be Emet-Selch making a dramaticisation of the end of days that could have happened if not for their actions in summoning Zodiark. The planet looks really destroyed relative to the rest of the dungeon. But also we're probably exploring Amaurotian stuff on the moon in this upcoming expansion.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:15
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The Ancients might also have been able to beat any given calamity beast with their Stands and so forth, but a. panicking while using their magics compounded the problem and b. there were new beasts every day and probably fewer ancients every day.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:17
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Nessus posted:The Ancients might also have been able to beat any given calamity beast with their Stands and so forth, but a. panicking while using their magics compounded the problem and b. there were new beasts every day and probably fewer ancients every day. I'm pretty sure part of the problem was their summoning magics creating more beasts instead of helping to protect from the beasts, thanks to their panic plus the sound messing with their creation magics (which is also the bit about everyone on the planet being like the Amaurotians, as the sound started away from the city and messed with their summoning magics and was encroaching on the city over time).
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Oct 20, 2021 19:24
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FuturePastNow posted:And the crashed spacecraft looked Allagan, but perhaps they attempted a moon landing and got shot down. Or maybe Bahamut's consciousness bled out of Dalamud and tempered some of the crew like how it bled through the Bozjan control tower and tempered Midas. Fun potential there for a horror story about being trapped on a spaceship with people getting mind controlled by the dragon in the lunar power plant.
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Oct 20, 2021 20:08
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https://twitter.com/nocheamarga/status/1450654525182808070?s=21
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Oct 20, 2021 22:13
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I'm guessing Emet-Selch gradually went for "these broken homonculi aren't really PEOPLE" to "these idiots who can't even do basic magic aren't really PEOPLE" to "well, they can't even make a go at doing the poo poo we did (using the ancient techniques we learned over the course of enormous lifespans and yea how many centuries of accumulated knowledge) so they aren't really PEOPLE. Even if they did make a time machine, kind of" So, I don't really have a lot of interest in going back and forth about Amaurot, because we just don't have enough real information, and what we do have I don't really find interesting. But this is something worth bringing up: We have a line from Emet-Selch talking about the new life that sprung up shortly after Zodiark's summoning. And we have a line from him talking about the people around him as Emperor Solus (specifically when Varis was a child, I think). Each time appearing to be an internal monologue, unaffected by Emet's general performatism in front of an audience. And the language is exactly the same. 'Sickly and malformed'. So not only does that give a fairly workable idea of exactly what kind of inferiority Emet applies to sundered life, it also confirms that Emet's view on them never changed. Across the eras, not a single thing ever changed his internal description of the 'lesser' beings. No growth occurred for that man, through all of recorded history. Also, a more direct clarification: all the Ascians were blindsided by time travel, because none of them were actually around for Alexander (although a single possibly-black-masked Ascian did set it into motion). So they never had a chance to factor it into their inferiority narrative.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:21
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My working guess is that emet and laha weren't sundered because they were on the moon at the time
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Oct 20, 2021 23:27
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I don't know why the moon would have escaped sundering. It makes more sense to me that every shard has its own moon instead of all of them sharing it.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:38
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WrightOfWay posted:I don't know why the moon would have escaped sundering. It makes more sense to me that every shard has its own moon instead of all of them sharing it. The moon isn't the planet.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:40
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The moon isn't the planet.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:44
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Nessus posted:It would be really funny if it's the same moon for every shard and that's how we're gonna fly back and forth. Moon port. It'sa hosed up metaphysical split and we already know approaching the planet from space lands you on the source thanks to Middy and his Brood and Omega.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:46
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cheetah7071 posted:My working guess is that emet and laha weren't sundered because they were on the moon at the time Yeah, this is my theory. Emet, Lahabrea and Elidibus (who might've operated by different rules, but is treated same as the other two so he probably still wasn't broken) were incidentally off on the moon, which was free from the radius of the world-rending chokeslam.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:47
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My theory is that Zodiark protected them, and they took the biggest remaining shard of big Z and hid it in the moon (that's why we're going there). Just for some more wild guessing, it's going to turn out that Fancy Dan is trying to hijack Hydaelyn from Venat, and use her power to destroy the world completely. The end-beast summoning is a red herring, pulling the same thing Elidibus did, making the people/the heroes power up crystal mom just before he takes over as her core. We have to go to the moon to awaken Zodiark and use his power to defeat the now-evil Hydaelyn. I know they did the "light = bad, dark = good" thing in the last expansion, but there's no reason they couldn't go even further with it. I feel like there's gonna be some twist around the fact that Zodiark is actually a god of creation and Hydaelyn a god of destruction.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:47
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Begemot posted:I know they did the "light = bad, dark = good" thing in the last expansion, but there's no reason they couldn't go even further with it. I feel like there's gonna be some twist around the fact that Zodiark is actually a god of creation and Hydaelyn a god of destruction. Okay, I don't mind this notion (especially given our knowledge of their respective skillsets), but ONLY if they don't go 'turns out Hydaelyn is baaaaaaaad'. There is no uniqueness or interest in that, and frankly I'd feel betrayed by it, but I do like the notion of the 'god of destruction' actually being the good one. And... in a weird way, it tracks with something else interesting about Hydaelyn: that out of everyone we know she chose as heroes of light, one of them was Ysayle, the violent revolutionary willing to tear down an ancient system. That'd actually track perfectly with 'Hydaelyn as benevolent god of destruction', she knows when poo poo needs to get broken to improve.
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Oct 21, 2021 00:11
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Neither are going to be bad.
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Oct 21, 2021 00:12
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Y'all weirdos with your corruption fetishes
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Oct 21, 2021 00:19
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