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Tighclops posted:I think Burning_Monk is right and that there are levels of horseshit and that if you go farther in one direction you get The Expanse (whose fusion rockets work "very well thank you") and if you go far the other way you land in Doctor Who/CW shows I’m really struggling with what you mean here. To me DW and ST have never had more than a sliver of daylight between each other, so I don’t know how Trek could “slide” in that direction when it never left. From The Cage to First First Contact it has always leaned towards the goofier/fantastical side of things. So when, in your mind, did Star Trek ever approach The Expanse end of the scale?
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Oct 21, 2021 23:23
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Endless Trash posted:I’m really struggling with what you mean here. To me DW and ST have never had more than a sliver of daylight between each other, so I don’t know how Trek could “slide” in that direction when it never left. imo, when janeway and paris turned into lizards
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Oct 21, 2021 23:27
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ChubbyChecker posted:the difference between fantasy scifi and hard scifi is how many scientists there are on the ships and what they call their space wizards  ChubbyChecker posted:imo, when janeway and paris turned into lizards
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Oct 21, 2021 23:31
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green space babes are very "hard" sci fi if you know what i mean!!!!!!!
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Oct 21, 2021 23:34
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Spock has fuckin' psychic powers.
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Oct 21, 2021 23:35
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Endless Trash posted:I’m really struggling with what you mean here. To me DW and ST have never had more than a sliver of daylight between each other, so I don’t know how Trek could “slide” in that direction when it never left. Measure of a Man.
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Oct 21, 2021 23:38
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dr_rat posted:Man, next people will be claiming giant Spock isn't hard sci-fi. Spock is only hard sci-fi once every 7 years.
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Oct 21, 2021 23:42
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In Balance of Terror, they had to stay super quiet so the other spaceship couldn’t hear them. If that isn’t hard scifi I don’t know what is.
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Oct 21, 2021 23:43
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Endless Trash posted:I’m really struggling with what you mean here. To me DW and ST have never had more than a sliver of daylight between each other, so I don’t know how Trek could “slide” in that direction when it never left. I said Trek should ideally try to find a middle ground between fantastical/grounded stuff, I'm not hugely knowledgeable about Doctor Who but from what I've seen it's a touch more... magical? The guy's ship is a phone booth that's sometimes a gothic library on the inside; various Enterprises (until recently) had a more grounded logic to them. The shows are full of differences like that and Trek obviously isn't consistent, it's not any one thing. I don't know what to tell you. quote:So when, in your mind, did Star Trek ever approach The Expanse end of the scale? I never said it did, and I never said Star Trek was or is supposed to be hard science fiction either. somebody go ahead and post that clip from kids in the hall because nobody's reading anything anymore lmao
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Oct 21, 2021 23:46
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love it when people argue in bad faith about genre labels, it owns
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Oct 21, 2021 23:48
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Burning_Monk posted:Measure of a Man. But is there any hard science or “hard science”? Not at all. They arrive at the starbase on the aforementioned magic crystal powered starship, and Data’s mind is 
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Oct 21, 2021 23:51
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Endless Trash posted:That’s a pretty good philosophical episode, nice metaphors about how we treat other people as less than human just so we can live with the way we abuse them. "Is this robot a person?" That's not hard science for you? I see you don't intend to discuss this in good faith.
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Oct 21, 2021 23:54
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Tighclops posted:Star Trek should try to stay somewhere between these points but they've been sliding towards the DW side of the scale for a while now Okay so when did this start is what I’m asking. How do you slide towards Doctor Who when the first episode of your show involves a magical barrier at the edge of the galaxy turning a regular man into a supervillain? Burning_Monk posted:"Is this robot a person?" It’s a courtroom drama harking back to questions of the rights of minorities. They used the word robot and you’re like wow yeah this sure is hard science.
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Oct 21, 2021 23:57
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Endless Trash posted:It’s a courtroom drama harking back to questions of the rights of minorities. They used the word robot and you’re like wow yeah this sure is hard science. Remind me when they removed the arm of minority in a courtroom drama to prove they weren't a person? You want it to be anything but what it is.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:07
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star trek pays lip service to science and realism in a way that dr who absolutely doesn't. that doesn't make it hard scifi or whatever - it's still just a fantastical plot device - but it has a very different aesthetic from "timey wimey stuff" even if functionally it's the same burning monk seems to only or mostly care about the aesthetic. others are more interested in a more standard definition of hard scifi where effort is made to actually make things plausible and situate a realistic trajectory from current scientific practice to whatever the conceit of the setting is
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Oct 22, 2021 00:11
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Burning_Monk posted:Remind me when they removed the arm of minority in a courtroom drama to prove they weren't a person? And what is it? You’re the guy telling me Star Trek is “hard science” so is it that? Do we learn something about robotics or artificial intelligence? Do they discuss hard problems in either of those fields? Does the audience come away with a better understanding of these fields? No. Replace android with ork and have Maddox want to dissect the ork to learn how to create a spell to conjure a vast army of ork clonez and it’s the same thing. It’s the philosophy of personhood and inalienable rights. There is no science here.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:16
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Endless Trash posted:There is no science here. thread title
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Oct 22, 2021 00:18
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Achmed Jones posted:star trek pays lip service to science and realism in a way that dr who absolutely doesn't. that doesn't make it hard scifi or whatever - it's still just a fantastical plot device - but it has a very different aesthetic from "timey wimey stuff" even if functionally it's the same Thank you! I am stupid and cannot articulate this. Endless Trash posted:Okay so when did this start is what I’m asking. I think it's been getting consistently worse about it since late TNG until now modern live action Trek is indistinguishable from other shows in that regard
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Oct 22, 2021 00:19
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Tighclops posted:modern live action Trek is indistinguishable from other shows in that regard On this we can agree
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Oct 22, 2021 00:23
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Endless Trash posted:And what is it? You’re the guy telling me Star Trek is “hard science” so is it that? Do we learn something about robotics or artificial intelligence? Do they discuss hard problems in either of those fields? Does the audience come away with a better understanding of these fields? It's not "hard science" itself but it does have some in it. "Does a machine has rights when it reaches a certain level of intelligence" is definitely a hard science question. It wouldn't be out of place as a Asimov short story.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:24
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Burning_Monk posted:It's not "hard science" itself but it does have some in it. "Does a machine has rights when it reaches a certain level of intelligence" is definitely a hard science question. It wouldn't be out of place as a Asimov short story. I’d say it’s a philosophical question but hey you know what? I’ll take it.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:30
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The hardest sci Fi one is where Gul Dukats secret gently caress You program threatens the entire station, and is then overtaken by his former superiors No, gently caress YOU program when he tries to help.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:33
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Also the one where Wesley saves the ship from space gaming addiction. Hard hitting hard Sci Fi.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:35
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External Organs posted:Also the one where Wesley saves the ship from space gaming addiction. Hard hitting hard Sci Fi. Crusher got some hard science in sub rosa
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Oct 22, 2021 00:37
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Endless Trash posted:Crusher got some hard science in sub rosa It's true. I read an almost identical story out of CERN last week.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:40
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Burning_Monk posted:"Does a machine has rights when it reaches a certain level of intelligence" is definitely a hard science question. Only in the sense that having the characters debate the question doesn't violate any laws of physics.
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Oct 22, 2021 00:51
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Burning_Monk posted:"Does a machine has rights when it reaches a certain level of intelligence" is definitely a hard science question. this is actually a philosophy 103: applied ethics question. philosophy 204: philosophy of science would not discuss this at all, nor would any science curriculum (except where the curriculum requires humanities credits that are often satisfied with philosophy 103: applied ethics)
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Oct 22, 2021 01:06
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I ran the numbers Data and it turns out you’re not sentient. Sorry dude.
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Oct 22, 2021 01:15
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Endless Trash posted:And what is it? You’re the guy telling me Star Trek is “hard science” so is it that? Do we learn something about robotics or artificial intelligence? Do they discuss hard problems in either of those fields? Does the audience come away with a better understanding of these fields? I'm going to counter-pedant here, even monologues by actual scientists explicitly trying to get their ideas across don't give audiences any better understanding of those issues either. I'm referring to TED talks here. Let's not kids ourselves about dipshit tv viewers gaining an understanding of anything. Did CSI teach people about forensic science or criminal process or the justice system? gently caress no. Honestly, if a show has "a script" or "sets" or "props" or "actors" that's almost a death sentence to any kind of realism. If you're making poo poo up, it takes an honest commitment and 10x the work to try and stay grounded in anything. The Martian, which is hard sci-fi if anything is, still had some handwaving in "the oxygenator". Star Trek is on a totally different level of reality but it's not worse for that. The Martian is about the only piece of fiction to pay attention to orbits and what they are and how they're the most important thing there is in space. With all that said, I feel there's a difference between flying in a spaceship that obeys rules vs. a magical phone booth, wardrobe-based portal, or astral projecting yourself with the power of truth.
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Oct 22, 2021 01:25
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there's a reason that episode takes place in a courtroom rather than a laboratory.
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Oct 22, 2021 01:25
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Fly a starship fast enough around a star and it’s a tardis. The holodeck is a tardis inside that tardis. It’s tardisii all the way down people.
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Oct 22, 2021 01:32
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Reminder that they found a literal TARDIS in Enterprise
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Oct 22, 2021 01:33
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The shift started when I saw Star Trek 09 and said "that's a pretty good star wars movie."
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Oct 22, 2021 01:33
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HD DAD posted:Reminder that they found a literal TARDIS in Enterprise I must have missed that episode.
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Oct 22, 2021 02:32
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Endless Trash posted:Fly a starship fast enough around a star and it’s a tardis. The holodeck is a tardis inside that tardis. It’s tardisii all the way down people. you're a tardis
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Oct 22, 2021 02:40
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I want to see a Land's End catalogue of Andorian winter wear. Can you imagine the hats?? 
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Oct 22, 2021 02:45
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Winifred Madgers posted:I must have missed that episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIQRSU-J_s
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Oct 22, 2021 02:49
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mycomancy posted:New Star Trek ranking: 
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Oct 22, 2021 02:59
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External Organs posted:I want to see a Land's End catalogue of Andorian winter wear. Winter wear, or as the Andorians call it, "wear"
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Oct 22, 2021 02:59
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Season 2, that explains it. I don't think I caught a lot of that year.
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Oct 22, 2021 03:36
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