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Cowslips Warren posted:I mean, aside from everything else in the last season of Game of Thrones, did no one else loving laugh until they pissed themselves with the whole "we will elect our ruler from now on" bullshit they tacked on at the end? That plot point almost certainly came from GRRM himself. It came out of nowhere in the show, but the books spend a lot of time talking about how different societies select their leaders and basically the one time that Westeros had a decent king was also the one time all the nobles got together and elected one. Hereditary monarchy being a bad way of selecting your ruler because there's no guarantee that the son will take after the father is something the series isn't particularly subtle about.
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Oct 23, 2021 14:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean it was usually the child of the former emperor. Interestingly nordic monarchies tended to be elective. The kings in Sweden was elected until 1810 when it was decided that the eldest son in the royal family should automatically inherit the throne. The norwegian and danish monarchy was elective from 1450 to 1660 and in 1905 Norway elected Haakon VII to be the king. Acute Grill posted:That plot point almost certainly came from GRRM himself. It came out of nowhere in the show, but the books spend a lot of time talking about how different societies select their leaders and basically the one time that Westeros had a decent king was also the one time all the nobles got together and elected one. Hereditary monarchy being a bad way of selecting your ruler because there's no guarantee that the son will take after the father is something the series isn't particularly subtle about. But the show also makes a big point about how it's bad that the nobles get together: quote:Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell: they're all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that one's on top, and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground.[...] I'm not going to stop the wheel, I'm going to break the wheel.
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Oct 23, 2021 15:26
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Pretty much everything after season 4 in game of thrones just feels like really badly written fanfiction. The characters teleport, they make decisions that don't make any sense at all, and random people appear and disappear without any explanation as to their importance. And yes I know that Harry Strickland is an actual character from the books, still. Of course, we are probably never going to see another actual book continuing the series if only because if you reread the end of the dance of dragons, there's so much going on splashed across so many continents, so many open-ended plots that will have to come together somehow, it's not a surprise that Martin's probably hoping we forget about the books entirely. And I don't think I'm the only person who was excited for the HBO Targaryen prequel series until the last season or two of game of thrones. As someone online said, it doesn't matter how cool any prequels are with the targaryens, we all know what ends with "the bells."
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Oct 23, 2021 15:40
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Alhazred posted:Interestingly nordic monarchies tended to be elective. The kings in Sweden was elected until 1810 when it was decided that the eldest son in the royal family should automatically inherit the throne. The norwegian and danish monarchy was elective from 1450 to 1660 and in 1905 Norway elected Haakon VII to be the king. This is actually referenced in Hamlet, iirc, starting with being the reason why the king is succeeded by his brother and not his son.
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Oct 23, 2021 15:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:This is actually referenced in Hamlet, iirc, starting with being the reason why the king is succeeded by his brother and not his son. In Scandinavia there was no clear rule that said that the king's oldest son inherited the throne. If his uncle, for example, was more popular then he became king instead.
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Oct 23, 2021 16:05
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Elective monarchy was also standard in Ireland, Scotland, and England prior to the Norman Conquest. The Merovingian kings in France were also elected, as were some of the Carolingian and early Capet kings. If anything, direct primogeniture is a fairly late occurrence in most of Europe - you need fairly strong state institutions to ensure even an unpopular heir can take the throne, rather than the nobility throwing a fit and deciding they're putting forward their own candidate.
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Oct 23, 2021 16:08
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Imagine having succession laws.
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Oct 23, 2021 16:15
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Angry Salami posted:Elective monarchy was also standard in Ireland, Scotland, and England prior to the Norman Conquest. The Merovingian kings in France were also elected, as were some of the Carolingian and early Capet kings. Fun fact: The president of France is also the prince of Andorra. Byzantine posted:Imagine having succession laws. Imagine having just one posting gimmick.
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Oct 23, 2021 16:17
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Alhazred posted:But the show also makes a big point about how it's bad that the nobles get together: Yeah, the Great Councils didn't work like that "election" in the finale, which was just the Great Houses installing a crippled child who's barely attached to reality as their puppet king. The one in the backstory had something like 1000 different lords in attendance, looking over the claims of 14 different candidates (15, really, but one was assassinated before he could make a formal claim). The way things happened in the show was definitely the opposite of what Danaerys would have wanted, and not just because it involved her assassination.
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Oct 23, 2021 16:20
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Alhazred posted:In Scandinavia there was no clear rule that said that the king's oldest son inherited the throne. If his uncle, for example, was more popular then he became king instead. This tended to have some unpleasant side effects from time to time. (See: Norwegian history between the end of the viking era and the Black Death.)
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Oct 23, 2021 18:23
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Honestly people trying to gotcha GOTs with the elective monarchy but it’s silly. For the period GRRM was aping an elective monarchy woukd have been perfectly acceptable. The only way it would have been unrealistic is if there was no king. As I think people underestimate just how ingrained kingship was in that periods mindset
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Oct 23, 2021 18:27
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Angry Salami posted:Elective monarchy was also standard in Ireland, Scotland, and England prior to the Norman Conquest. The Merovingian kings in France were also elected, as were some of the Carolingian and early Capet kings. If anything, direct primogeniture is a fairly late occurrence in most of Europe - you need fairly strong state institutions to ensure even an unpopular heir can take the throne, rather than the nobility throwing a fit and deciding they're putting forward their own candidate. …so having to unlock Primogeniture in CK3 wasn’t something they made up for balance reasons? AceOfFlames has a new favorite as of 18:32 on Oct 23, 2021 |
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Oct 23, 2021 18:29
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I think "Bran becomes king by election" was something GRRM told the writers would be the ending. That definitely feels like "who ends up on the Throne" was one of the details HBO would have asked him to give over when they realized he wasn't going to finish the books in time for the show. And I think Tyrion's speech wanking off on the power of stories and storytellers was also a GRRM feature, being the assumed conclusion of his bigass book series. But I also think it was supposed to be more of a bittersweet, or even tragic ending. The story starts from the unsettled problems of the last generation, created from the compromise forged by the winners after defeating an undeniably evil king—it makes sense for it to end with the winners of this generation's great conflict creating an unsustainable compromise around a weak king that'll soon end with Westeros splintering.
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Oct 23, 2021 18:29
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Well I think it’s more GRRM planned to you know build up to that rather than speed running because the produces had another job lined up
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Oct 23, 2021 18:32
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And then Martin ran into issues when he ran out of source material for his political stuff. Only beat from the War of the Roses left is the rightful heir raised in exile crossing the sea, overthrowing the hated usurper and marrying a York to calm the fighting.
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Oct 23, 2021 18:47
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It's been a while since I've read the main series but if I remember correctly, Westeros is the only part of the world as-seen that even bothers with a hereditary monarchy/aristocracy. No system is shown as being perfect and plenty are shown as being worse (nobody but the Dothraki Warlords like the Dothraki Warlord system, for example) but a big thing about the Seven Kingdoms is that the system only works if the ruling dynasty (1) has dragons and (2) nobody else has dragons. The system has to change because it already stopped working before the series even started.
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Oct 23, 2021 20:34
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Absolutely fantastic the last GoT book was published just as the series started and 8 years later the series ended and nothing else had been published.
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Oct 23, 2021 22:42
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And nothing else will ever be published. Unless they do a comic tie in I guess
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Oct 23, 2021 22:47
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GoT is 4 million pages of GRRM's rape fetishes interspersed with ten page descriptions of food.
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Oct 23, 2021 23:23
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My biggest regret about the GoT books never getting finished is that we'll never see how GRRM spite-kills all of the Stark kids just to piss off everyone who was invested in the show.
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Oct 23, 2021 23:47
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I think it'd be something like, the Brotherhood without Banners execute an ambush right after Bran is declared king, all nobles killed and looted. Magic is no match for lots of angry murderous thugs. No more kings, just murder, murder, rape and murder.
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Oct 24, 2021 04:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:Honestly people trying to gotcha GOTs with the elective monarchy but it’s silly. For the period GRRM was aping an elective monarchy woukd have been perfectly acceptable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drahQ1_UdC0 AceOfFlames posted:…so having to unlock Primogeniture in CK3 wasn’t something they made up for balance reasons? You'd be surprised how slow and how difficult it is to create and maintain social constructs on that level. Even the Roman Empire at its height had frequent problems because it never really established a proper succession for the Emperor besides 'probably the guy the last Emperor liked the most'. It takes a lot of time and effort for them to become completely normalised and ingrained concepts that people are raised not to question.
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Oct 24, 2021 06:28
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https://twitter.com/Josiah_Walrus/status/1451920109774139395?s=20 Not gonna lie, I honestly assumed Bobcat would be more of a chud about this. Granted, the last time I even paid attention to him was back on Unhappily Ever After and Bobcat's Bigass Show, so I probably just made the assumption based on that, but yeah, glad to be wrong.
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Oct 24, 2021 07:27
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Well like Bobcat himself likes to say, you're probably thinking of Sam Kinison. https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppq3a9/better-off-dead-0000188-v19n4
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Oct 24, 2021 08:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:Honestly people trying to gotcha GOTs with the elective monarchy but it’s silly. It's more that the show keeps building up to finale where there's going to be a big change in Westeros. Winter is coming and no one is really prepared for it. Dany wants to break the wheel. Magic and dragons have returned. A lot of the big noble houses gets more or less wiped out. And then in the end everything returns to normal.
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Oct 24, 2021 08:07
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" I Was a Celebrity—Watch Me Eat Crocodile Balls"
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Oct 24, 2021 08:07
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the_steve posted:Not gonna lie, I honestly assumed Bobcat would be more of a chud about this. I started following Bobcat stuff more closely after seeing World's Greatest Dad, starring Robin Williams, and doing a spit take realizing he was the director also. He is a sweet, funny and passionate guy. No way a chud or any kind of rear end in a top hat would have such a bond with Williams like he did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gsUeNly1oU
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Oct 24, 2021 10:28
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Alhazred posted:It's more that the show keeps building up to finale where there's going to be a big change in Westeros. Winter is coming and no one is really prepared for it. Dany wants to break the wheel. Magic and dragons have returned. A lot of the big noble houses gets more or less wiped out. And then in the end everything returns to normal. An elective monarchy is a big change? Maybe not for a modern society but like I said it’s the radical but realistic for the age. Like if you wanted representative democracy or something dumb like that it was never going to happen and it would have been dumb if it did. Like that dumb poo poo kingdom of Heaven pulled
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Oct 24, 2021 10:37
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https://twitter.com/ClassicShowbiz/status/1451975934861447171?s=20
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Oct 24, 2021 10:44
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CharlestheHammer posted:An elective monarchy is a big change? Not really. The big noble houses stay in power, they just replace the people in them. The show kept teasing us about how the wheel was going to break and that the arrival of the white walkers was going to be a cataclysmic event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq0B0NVKghA The show had also from the very beginning said that winter was coming and that that going to be a big deal, but in the end that also didn't matter. Not even the Watch was disbanded even though it had no reason left to exist.
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Oct 24, 2021 10:48
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Well I’m glad it didn’t do anything that stupid
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Oct 24, 2021 10:50
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It's kinda hard to see what the point of the show was if the status quo was never going to change at the end of it.
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Oct 24, 2021 10:54
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That joke makes no sense lol, think i found out the real reason people hated his act
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Oct 24, 2021 10:55
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There's really no way to deal with the White Walkers, and I'm really curious what GRRM's initial plan for them was, if any. The correct thing would be to have the succession crisis settled and then have the zombies crush the weakened kingdom as a metaphor for climate change, but that's a real downer of an ending. Them being a brief roadblock is their only narratively useful role, but that's anticlimactic. You could have the factions put up a united front briefly, but before the zombies are cruahes totally the claimants turn on each other, allowing the Night King to regroup and grow his numbers again before emerging as the final foe, but having the final conflict center around a CG guy and his digital warriors is, again, a letdown.
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Oct 24, 2021 10:58
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Alhazred posted:It's kinda hard to see what the point of the show was if the status quo was never going to change at the end of it. It did change just not to your arbitrary standards. Because get this, a lot of nobility died in real life, France itself experienced this and guess what? New people were just elevated to the old positions. The system just changing for no real reason doesn’t happen
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Oct 24, 2021 11:02
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mandatory lesbian posted:That joke makes no sense lol, think i found out the real reason people hated his act He's saying that Scots are stingy. That's the entirety of his self-described "best joke".
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Oct 24, 2021 11:11
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mandatory lesbian posted:That joke makes no sense lol, think i found out the real reason people hated his act Yeah, they were woke 1948 liberals
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Oct 24, 2021 11:14
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Should have made it about the Irish, might have got some pity laughs
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Oct 24, 2021 11:15
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Tiggum posted:He's saying that Scots are stingy. That's the entirety of his self-described "best joke". Jesus christ, how did we fall so far from sumerians making a bunch of fart jokes
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Oct 24, 2021 11:17
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Just can't make a joke about being invaded by the Sea People without offending them and subsequently being invaded again
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Oct 24, 2021 11:41
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