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Pamela Springstein posted:That you haven't been keeping a list shows how worthless and arbitrary the system is. you don't even know who is on it. free everyone. I didn't think it had much utility compared to checking rapsheets. Reviewing a rapsheet takes only somewhat more effort than checking a list. also if I miss one odds are very good a vindictive goon will remind me via either report or PM, so that's handy
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Oct 27, 2021 00:27
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I also have to be honest, it's kind of funny that the thread started out with thisCommieGIR posted:At the end of this whole thing, lemme be clear: The community owns D&D. Not the mods. and now it turns out multiple bad d&d ideas are admin decree that seem to be a hands tied situation.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:28
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no surprise there, free larry
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Oct 27, 2021 00:30
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Cease to Hope posted:That's just being a hostile dickhead, which should get people probed. A petty list of banned words is not the right solution to the problem of aggro posting. So you do support blacklisting microaggressive name calling?
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Oct 27, 2021 00:30
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The Shortest Path posted:Making poo poo up about what you think other people mean when they post things has continuously been brought up as a problem and yall just keep doing it. There is a point where you just failed to lurk more though. Most of the banned words (big exception: concentration camps) were just pointless shitstirring that either indicated a failure to lurk more or intentional hostility. The mods handled punishing that failure poorly, but there is a point where a hostile attitude should not be welcome. If you can't contain your scorn, post in the politics forum where uncontrolled bile is welcome instead.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:32
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Gumball Gumption posted:This might be outside of this thread but if they're an admin decree why have they been given no technical support? It's very odd and feels silly to avoid using the tools we have, probes and bans, to use these adhoc tools that you're not even really keeping track of and then also not give you any way to make it a real system. It's really weird and something that I never understand about SomethingAwful. We're a gated community yet really hate the idea of using that gate. re: the technical underpinnings of mod tools: ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Oct 27, 2021 00:32
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A Excel spreadsheet that's like the Postinomicon/Adminomicon/Modinomicon(??? Still workshopping this) that's like a central compedium of modmin notes on problematic users, current thread/forum bans, and perhaps an automated tool like a spreadsheet formula to track ramps and probes would be a useful tool. I also think you could probably set up a JIRA server to accept reports/probes via redirects to create automated tickets for a much smoother workflow for responding to reports and tracking probes/actions etc would also be useful but would take more specialized expertese to make work. JIRA has the bonus that with integration you could probably let posts get reported more than once as a means of determining priority (and to avoid this being gamed by people abusing this; once a report ticket is set to CLOSED/In progress/Etc that additional reports do nothing as its been seen.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:32
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GreyjoyBastard posted:re: the technical underpinnings of mod tools: He has yospos in his name for gods sake! What a sloppy shop
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Oct 27, 2021 00:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:A Excel spreadsheet that's like the Postinomicon/Adminomicon/Modinomicon(??? Still workshopping this) that's like a central compedium of modmin notes on problematic users, current thread/forum bans, and perhaps an automated tool like a spreadsheet formula to track ramps and probes would be a useful tool. Holy poo poo this is the worst idea I've seen in my entire life. Thankfully it's also completely impractical! But do not make a shitlist of enemies of D&D.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:A Excel spreadsheet that's like the Postinomicon/Adminomicon/Modinomicon(??? Still workshopping this) that's like a central compedium of modmin notes on problematic users, current thread/forum bans, and perhaps an automated tool like a spreadsheet formula to track ramps and probes would be a useful tool. You are vastly overthink what is available to us.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:34
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Cease to Hope posted:Holy poo poo this is the worst idea I've seen in my entire life. Thankfully it's also completely impractical! But do not make a shitlist of enemies of D&D. You say this is the worst idea you've ever seen in your entire life, but did you not see the very next sentence where he suggests a Something Awful Moderation JIRA?
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Oct 27, 2021 00:36
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:You say this is the worst idea you've ever seen in your entire life, but did you not see the very next sentence where he suggests a Something Awful Moderation JIRA? I meant the whole post, in fairness.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:37
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fool of sound posted:I do think that threadbans in particular have been overused lately tbh. less than 2 hours earlier: fool of sound posted:That sure is a lot of words to call me a patholical liar, MSDOS. It's funny that you would call anyone pathological when you've spent the entire last year of your posting exclusively complaining about D&D in other forums. Don't post in this thread again. amazing i hope you have a moment of self-reflection over this but who are we kidding lol
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Oct 27, 2021 00:37
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I don't think it's limited to mod tools. It's probably admin tools as well. One of the reasons some threads had to go monthly was because the drop down page select box doesn't truncate the list at all so the box itself was getting so large that in super busy threads it was showing up as a noticeable strain on the servers. I can't even begin to imagine what a mess stuff like the front page is under the hood, all inherited of course as should surprise nobody
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Oct 27, 2021 00:39
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Gumball Gumption posted:I also have to be honest, it's kind of funny that the thread started out with this Ok, I think this does need to be said. The idea of having a functioning admin team actually overseeing the mods and developing consistent policy really didn't exist prior to 2019, afaict. Like before that there were 1-2 boss admins at a time who specifically handled big executive decision stuff but otherwise mods were left to their own devices with no oversight. The whole fyad drama into lowtax situation in rapid succession kinda upended everything and there has kinda been a (glacially slow) effort to figure out what consistent policies and practices on the site should look like. There has been some experimentation, and the lack of an admin who is particularly familiar with the politics forums has made things kind of difficult. Not to mention the codebase for this website is a loving disaster that's still being cleaned up pretty heroically by astral. This isn't really intended to be a "this is the admins' fault" post because the D&D mods have made poor and inconsistent decisions too, but some of the inconsistency and inertia does happen above our heads.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:I also think you could probably set up a JIRA server to accept reports/probes via redirects to create automated tickets for a much smoother workflow for responding to reports and tracking probes/actions etc would also be useful but would take more specialized expertese to make work. I don't have many thoughts on D&D but I think it's an absolutely incredible idea to implement a connection between code radium wrote and a JIRA server. Please do this immediately.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:41
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Freakazoid_ posted:So you do support blacklisting microaggressive name calling? Cease to Hope posted:Holy poo poo this is the worst idea I've seen in my entire life. Thankfully it's also completely impractical! But do not make a shitlist of enemies of D&D. Pentecoastal Elites posted:You say this is the worst idea you've ever seen in your entire life, but did you not see the very next sentence where he suggests a Something Awful Moderation JIRA? Cease to Hope posted:I meant the whole post, in fairness. mentholmoose posted:I don't have many thoughts on D&D but I think it's an absolutely incredible idea to implement a connection between code radium wrote and a JIRA server. Please do this immediately. Stop. We'll give the "debate other posters in this thread" thing another try tomorrow.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I didn't think it had much utility compared to checking rapsheets. Reviewing a rapsheet takes only somewhat more effort than checking a list. lmao, if this doesn't sum this poo poo up. For all the reductio ad absurdum stuff that people lob around here, from "wailing & rending garments" to "frothing anger," it's these thin-skinned assholes that are truly the wailing & frothing.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:45
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Willa Rogers posted:lmao, if this doesn't sum this poo poo up. There are very fine wailers and frothers on both sides, believe me. We get plenty of reports from our cspam crossover posters.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:48
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fool of sound posted:There are very fine wailers and frothers on both sides, believe me. We get plenty of reports from our cspam crossover posters. Oh, no doubt. But the forum/thread bans are as ideologically lopsided as the other punishments are, and it's amusing to think of people mashing the report button to tattle to teacher that they forgot to punish so-and-so like they said they were going to.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:53
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Improving the mod tools is an extremely low priority for the tech team, because only a small handful of users actually interact with them in any way. Given the choice between a new feature that 5000 users would see or a new mod tool that 50 mods would see, they'll usually go with the new feature. I'm not so sure the math is really that simple, but 
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Oct 27, 2021 00:55
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Here are my suggestions and thoughts about how to improve D&D in no particular order. My experience is mainly limited to the USPol/News threads, so take that how you will. - Rename Debate and Discussion to Political Discussion and move it to CSPAM. As others have pointed out, "Debate" implies taking sides and winning an argument, which often results in people making GBS threads up the thread over semantics to be the most right, often resulting in direct attacks ending in probes. This behavior undoubtedly intimidates newcomers to the subforum. -Get rid of the USNews megathread. It's too broad a topic to stay focused, and results in convos going in different directions and prone to derails. . Anytime a solid discussion does get going, we're told to create a new thread. Instead, create a new subforum in CSPAM called Current Events. This is where people can create separate threads for any new news articles that want to talk about. Threads will move slower overall, and remain on a singular topic, hopefully making it easier to follow and moderate. -Remove thread- and forum bans. There's no coded way in the forums to keep track of them, so it's one more thing mods need to keep track of. If you post like a shitheel enough for a mod to have to say "Stop posting here" then it should apply to the whole forum. -More explicit probation reasons. I've seen a lot of "Why did this get probed?" during a heated discussion. Checking the reason usually doesn't reveal why a mod felt they needed to push buttons. Yes, ultimately a probation or ban is down to mod discretion, but having something concrete to point to about how they hosed up will help alleviate feelings of being targeted. - Faster ramps for punishment. Endless 6ers clearly don't bother some people. Frequent, repeat offenders should have to sit in timeout longer and longer until they learn their lesson or are shown the door. For Mods, and moderating in general, I would suggest moderating "behavior" instead of "content". Let derails happen - they'll eventually peter out. If it gets to be a problem, someone will come in and try to bring up a new topic to steer the discussion towards. So long as people are being civil, let it flow.
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Oct 27, 2021 01:06
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Lib and let die posted:I guess I'll risk breaking the new rules (and being "the new spreadsheet goon") to answer this (eta: this is a very rough estimate. it could be 1/2 this as FoS mentions a few posts down, there are some warnings in here!) bunch of these are parachutes and you should also go through and remove the ones that are just 'keep doing this and you'll be thread banned,' too vasukhani, chairmaster, and 2016lover all contributed 3-4 accounts to the list iirc Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 01:06
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I do like the 'disable report button' idea - and if anyone uses URL fuckery to get past it, just give them a weeker for Forums Fuckery.
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Oct 27, 2021 01:07
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Make the report button an self probe for 6 hours
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Oct 27, 2021 01:14
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fool of sound posted:Ok, I think this does need to be said. The idea of having a functioning admin team actually overseeing the mods and developing consistent policy really didn't exist prior to 2019, afaict. Like before that there were 1-2 boss admins at a time who specifically handled big executive decision stuff but otherwise mods were left to their own devices with no oversight. The whole fyad drama into lowtax situation in rapid succession kinda upended everything and there has kinda been a (glacially slow) effort to figure out what consistent policies and practices on the site should look like. There has been some experimentation, and the lack of an admin who is particularly familiar with the politics forums has made things kind of difficult. Not to mention the codebase for this website is a loving disaster that's still being cleaned up pretty heroically by astral. This isn't really intended to be a "this is the admins' fault" post because the D&D mods have made poor and inconsistent decisions too, but some of the inconsistency and inertia does happen above our heads. Yeah that's not my point and not what I think you're suggesting. I also definitely think we should just use the tools we have and be more willing to make people pay ten bux over making new thread ban tools. I just really do find it funny that the thread started with this big promise but it's not actually true because this website is really dysfunctional and doesn't know what it's doing. "Hey guys we see you and hear you and the community makes the decisions. Unless it's one of the weird things the admins decided. In that case we'll try but like sheesh it's gonna be tough"
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Oct 27, 2021 01:15
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One: The mods need to be louder, angrier and have access to a time machine. Two: Whenever the mods aren’t on screen, all the other characters should be asking, “Where’s the mods?”
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Oct 27, 2021 01:27
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mentholmoose posted:I don't have many thoughts on D&D but I think it's an absolutely incredible idea to implement a connection between code radium wrote and a JIRA server. Please do this immediately. please god no that's how you get literally Skynet
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Oct 27, 2021 01:35
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LGD posted:hmm so the mod who came in extremely aggressively and imposed new rules dictating people speak in exactly the manner they prefer (including only addressing posts to mods) is now issuing a threadban because they didn't like the content of a perfectly decorous post addressed to them, and misrepresenting both the contents of the post and how that poster behaves in other contexts to do so (a funny "response" to a self-invented charge of being a pathological liar!) It cannot be state enough but the mods really are responsible for the entire problem with the culture. Everything wrong with F&D is basically a direct reflection of their own just bad attitudes and brains. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2021 01:36
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a genuine question to fool of sound: Why do you expect things to get better? this is the latest in a relentless iteration of feedback and user pushback against the actions of mods, and things never change. nothing is ever settled, and the enmity between poster and admin just grows deeper. Do you look at yourself, do you look at your staff, and see them radically altering their moderation style? its an extremely hard thing to change oneself like that, and as long as this style of modding remains, things will continue to get worse. If you truly wish to see a dnd that gets better rather than gets worse, step down, and encourage your staff to follow your example. this is the only way we aren't all back in another thread like this three months down the line. e: like, their contributions in this feedback thread has either been wholly aggro (commiegir and you to a lesser extent), wholly absent (handsome ralph) or focused on minutiae (greyjoy, and to be fair it does seem like his jam). why should any user see how the mods have reacted to this thread and hold any optimism whatsoever for the future? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 01:38
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Are forum/threadbans discussed and basically agreed on among the moderating team in advance? Because it often feels like a knee-jerk gesture of exasperation by a single mod, mostly because the probe reasons are fairly flippant instead of educational.
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Oct 27, 2021 01:40
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fool of sound posted:Democrat party is the most annoying little shibboleth because the people using it are just doing so to get a rise out of people and the latter always, always fall for it. It's incredibly childish of both parties. Generally the only blanket word ban I support are slurs, including ableist ones, and I don't really care if anyone thinks I shouldn't. People have been using that phrase long before it became a clear marker of reactionary intent according to the dumbest posts on this board and the fact that still liken it actual slurs by association here shows you're just kind of dumb.
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Oct 27, 2021 01:42
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Every time one thread is causing a huge issue on the forums, it seems like it always ends in one of two ways: 1) The thread gets moved to CCCC. 2) The thread is closed and making a new one is a probatable offence. My feedback is that since you'll inevitably end up in situation 1 or 2, you should skip to it. You tried doing option 2 for a bit but couldn't hold your nerve and let it come back. A common complaint seems to be that the thread is full of regulars who are hostile to people with divergent views. Another common complaint is that the thread is constantly bombarded by trolls who are determined to be disruptive to the people who just want to post in the thread without someone trying to blow up and derail the thread. It strikes me that the problem is that these two features are fundamentally irreconcilable because the thread is in a forum where it is expected that people should debate in good faith, but nobody on either side of the issue seems to think the other is willing to do so. Thankfully, there is no such expectation in CCCC. The thread's regulars can set their own terms and parameters of acceptable debate, elect an IK, and mercilessly probate anyone who comes in to stir poo poo. Since that thread will remain open, if anyone tries to start a generic US News or US Politics thread in the forum, you can just advise that such a thread already exists, link the CCCC thread, and close the new one as a duplicate, advising posters to make a thread on a specific topic if there's something they consider worthy of debate and discussion.
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Oct 27, 2021 01:48
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StratGoatCom posted:I do like the 'disable report button' idea - and if anyone uses URL fuckery to get past it, just give them a weeker for Forums Fuckery. That's not really practical given the mobile apps that just post the report directly, you wouldn't even know the button were disabled.
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Oct 27, 2021 02:08
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Nobody trusts the mods to exercise good judgement. Ticky-tacky rules that promise to involve no judgement (eg word bans), removing reports, using the mods as a cudgel against posting enemies to win arguments, purging the mods again, getting rid of the forum entirely, all of these are symptoms of this one core problem. And none of them actually solve it. If there was any inherent deference to the mods before, it's all been pissed away (and was probably already exhausted by the time PPJ flamed out). When a mod probes an rear end in a top hat who has political opinions, nobody trusts that it was because they were an rear end in a top hat and not because of their political opinions. But D&D does need someone who will toss out the assholes, both because a bunch of the locals are toxic waste or horribly boring white noise and because there's a bunch of people who've decided loving with D&D is a righteous cause or the funniest thing ever. Moderation is necessary and sorely needed right now, but it's built on trust, and right now there is none. I don't know how you fix that problem. I don't know if you can fix that problem.
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Oct 27, 2021 02:17
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A big flaming stink posted:e: like, their contributions in this feedback thread has either been or focused on minutiae (greyjoy, and to be fair it does seem like his jam). ..harsh but fair I got a couple effortposts in me queue, not sure where to post them now that Jeff took the qcs thread out behind the barn
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Oct 27, 2021 02:32
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CommieGIR posted:Which was part of why the Blow thread was started, the hope was people could work out their anxiety and some of their shitposting in there and it did work, briefly. Then it turned into everyone turning on one another and we had to close it. hi i don't have much to say about d&d that i haven't already said in the QCS thread but i want to dispute this the blow zone was good, it worked, you felt you had to close it because you were uncomfortable with people being angry at each other and also you were uncomfortable with the fact that at least one poster on the d&d "side" took their mask off and went full "tara reade is a liar", something which had to be pointed out to you and which you punished with a 6er, the probation type that isn't really a punishment. people were uncomfortable with your non-punishment and posted angrily at you. all of these things came together to make you feel that the blow zone was sufficiently uncivilized so as to require never opening it up again. none of that is a law of nature. you didn't "have to" close it, but you did, because you didn't want to let the de facto "succ zone embassy" actually operate by succ zone rules in order to let folks work out their grievances. if the blow zone was a permanent weekly institution i think you would see the same pattern every week: level-headed discussions and people reaching out across the battle lines, mixed in with people arguing and laying out their grievances. that's what any "outlet" thread designed for people to work their anxiety and shitposting out in is going to look like. it's what the last incarnation of the blow zone looked like - don't minimize the reasonable discussions that were taking place over the whole weekend just because they were interspersed with the more heated stuff. anyway basically the blow zone worked, if you were to continue it it would continue to work and would both let people slapfight in an isolated manner, and occasionally reveal the "bad apples" in d&d when they get baited into writing screeds about tara reade or whatever issue of the day is contentious. you may not be the mod that should shepherd the blow zone in the future, however, because you do not like angry discussions nor do you recognize/appropriately respond to the severity of situations where posters take their mask off and say nasty poo poo Jazerus fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 02:33
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I just want to say that even when everyone was breaking the rules this is mostly the best posting about posting has gone in a very long time. Go team!
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Oct 27, 2021 02:35
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GreyjoyBastard posted:..harsh but fair 
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Oct 27, 2021 02:36
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Are forum/threadbans discussed and basically agreed on among the moderating team in advance? Because it often feels like a knee-jerk gesture of exasperation by a single mod, mostly because the probe reasons are fairly flippant instead of educational. Forum bans are never a knee jerk reaction and they are almost always due to a long history of shithouse posting / probations. And yes, mods discuss it.
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Oct 27, 2021 02:38
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