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fool of sound posted:I only care about the opinion of people who have firsthand experience with posting here, not secondhand opinions from some other thread or grudges from before any of the current mod team was around. If you take command of a ship on fire, it's fair to criticize you for not extinguishing them fires.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:49
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Probably Magic posted:You really aren't the ex-mod to try to make this quip. Like, the one person after the guy who had the excessive resignation from CSPAM modding, and it's the guy who had the excessive resignation from D&D modding. lmao I completely forgot he was a C-SPAM mod too for a bit i was more thinking about how he's usually constantly begging mods both publicly and privately to probate everyone who disagrees with him. plus the big pile of BNR drama that got imported here Skyl3lazer posted:Ah yes the "silent majority" of people that don't have an SA account, whose opinions should matter over people who are saying they want to post but feel unfairly treated so don't. previous feedback threads usually had some old D&D posters say that they were sick of the endless hostility and assholery here and didn't want to put up with it anymore, and that's why they've largely given up on D&D they didn't show up this time, but why would they? it's been years of feedback threads and D&D's still full of hostile assholes who are, incidentally, the only people who'll spend several straight years screaming at a forum they claim to hate at every opportunity. everyone else just leaves eventually in search of a place that actually makes them happy, and never go back to the place that makes them mad
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Oct 27, 2021 18:51
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fool of sound posted:I only care about the opinion of people who have firsthand experience with posting here, not secondhand opinions from some other thread or grudges from before any of the current mod team was around. socialsecurity posted:I've never read other feedback threads but does like C-SPAM or the Sports forum feedback threads have tons of people who never post there coming in to tell them how things should be and how wrong/dumb they all are? Please explain why the opinions of tons and tons of lurkers are worthless. Why are people who spend tons of time lurking required to post in order to have their feedback taken seriously?
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Oct 27, 2021 18:53
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Elephant Ambush posted:Please explain why the opinions of tons and tons of lurkers are worthless. Why are people who spend tons of time lurking required to post in order to have their feedback taken seriously? Because people who spend years hanging out in the margins of a forum obsessing about it aren't the "lurkers" I would like to post here, if we're being real.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:55
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fool of sound posted:I only care about the opinion of people who have firsthand experience with posting here, not secondhand opinions from some other thread or grudges from before any of the current mod team was around. I've been posting in D&D since l like, 2005 or something insane. The people who don't post in D&D as much anymore but used to are right. The people who have spent years saying "the forum is bad because we haven't banned all the correct people for it to be good yet" are wrong. I won't name or quote any in particular since the rules in this thread are unusual and I don't want to gently caress it up.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:57
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fool of sound posted:Because people who spend years hanging out in the margins of a forum obsessing about it aren't the "lurkers" I would like to post here, if we're being real. If all you want is a space filled with people you personally want to see posting, go make a CCCC thread.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:58
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Lol just coming out and saying you take pride in protecting D&D from the wrong kinds of posters.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:59
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fool of sound posted:Because people who spend years hanging out in the margins of a forum obsessing about it aren't the "lurkers" I would like to post here, if we're being real. So uhhhh what's the loving point of this thread, then?
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Oct 27, 2021 19:01
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The Shortest Path posted:If all you want is a space filled with people you personally want to see posting, go make a CCCC thread.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:01
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fool of sound posted:Yeah I just looked and there should have been action taken on those. I can't find the report on it so all I can think is that someone didn't want to hit it because an IK was participating in the discussion or something, sorry. I didn't hit a button because truthfully, I figured my report would just get tossed in the pile of "cspam posters are riled up about something" no action reports. another poster in that thread is probably a really good example of needless aggroposting being allowed because it seemingly aligns with the D&D mods' views on american politics is in that thread, too: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3973064&userid=228129 if I had been posting like that in say, USNews, I can guarantee I'd have gotten a thread ban or worse.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:02
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Harold Fjord posted:I've been posting in D&D since l like, 2005 or something insane. The people who don't post in D&D as much anymore but used to are right. The people who have spent years saying "the forum is bad because we haven't banned all the correct people for it to be good yet" are wrong. I won't name or quote any in particular since the rules in this thread are unusual and I don't want to gently caress it up. Ok, and I respect this opinion because I know that you have and do participate here, and I that the incessant argument for more bans is a problem, not a solution. I don't think that means that there aren't posters that this subforum is better without.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:02
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camoseven posted:So uhhhh what's the loving point of this thread, then? It's not hard: for the people who actually participate (or at least, have participated in the recent past) to vocalize the problems as they see them, and suggest solutions to those problems.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:04
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quote:Ok, and I respect this opinion because I know that you have and do participate here, and I that the incessant argument for more bans is a problem, not a solution. I don't think that means that there aren't posters that this subforum is better without. While that may be true, you've shown that you have no idea who those are; at this point, the damage done to discourse by curtailing forums bans will be less then that done by the misfires.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:05
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fool of sound posted:Because people who spend years hanging out in the margins of a forum obsessing about it aren't the "lurkers" I would like to post here, if we're being real. Consider that a lot of these posters are people that used to be D&D posters (even regulars) and who have been driven out of the forum, either forcefully due to bad moderation, or who have voluntarily elected to stop participating in the threads because of bad moderation. Many of these people would still like to participate but the continuing bad policies and moderation actions, as well as the intractable refusal to seriously engage with any of the more pointed and direct criticisms, mean that their opinions get outright dismissed as trolling or just opinions that you don't want to care about because they're now considered outsiders and result in posts like this one that I'm responding to.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:05
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fool of sound posted:It's not hard: for the people who actually participate (or at least, have participated in the recent past) to vocalize the problems as they see them, and suggest solutions to those problems. So, it sounds like this thread should be opened immediately to forumbanned posters, then?
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Oct 27, 2021 19:06
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So there's a list of posters who meet the criteria for valid opinions and no you can't see the list and no you can't know the criteria?
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Oct 27, 2021 19:07
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Honestly, USPOL should be a CCCC thread, right? The mix of horserace politics and funny conservatives tweets combined with serious discussion about controversial stuff has never really gelled.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:07
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Famethrowa posted:Honestly, USPOL should be a CCCC thread, right? The mix of horserace politics and funny conservatives tweets combined with serious discussion about controversial stuff has never really gelled. Honestly yeah, that would also solve a lot of the problems D&D has according to this thread and the mods.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:08
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Ruzihm posted:So, it sounds like this thread should be opened immediately to forumbanned posters, then? No, an earlier post stated that anyone who FoS thinks should be banned is also disqualified. Edit: I considered adding more here, but I feel like everything I would say has been said. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 19:11
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Skyl3lazer posted:Ah yes the "silent majority" of people that don't have an SA account, whose opinions should matter over people who are saying they want to post but feel unfairly treated so don't. Hi. I don't think I'm alone in saying (a) I have consistently lurked (and occasionally posted) in D&D since I registered back in 2004; (b) I posted a lot while I was still in school, but slowed down my posting as my IRL responsibilities picked up and because engaging with irony-poisoned aggroposters isn't great for my mental health; and (c) I generally appreciate the efforts of the mod staff--past and present--and don't think folks losing their poo poo on the current mods for problems that predate most of them by a long time is very helpful.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:13
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Consider that a lot of these posters are people that used to be D&D posters (even regulars) and who have been driven out of the forum, either forcefully due to bad moderation, or who have voluntarily elected to stop participating in the threads because of bad moderation. Many of these people would still like to participate but the continuing bad policies and moderation actions, as well as the intractable refusal to seriously engage with any of the more pointed and direct criticisms, mean that their opinions get outright dismissed as trolling or just opinions that you don't want to care about because they're now considered outsiders and result in posts like this one that I'm responding to. On the other hand we have posters like Willa, Probably Magic, Lib and Let Die, or quite a few others who I know participate with the current rules, mods, culture, and posters, so I know that their critical feedback is firsthand and actionable in a way that someone who wasn't posted in D&D since literally any of the current staff have been mods... aren't. The latters' impressions can be enlightening but their specific critiques not so much.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:14
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fool of sound posted:On the other hand we have posters like Willa, Probably Magic, Lib and Let Die, or quite a few others who I know participate with the current rules, mods, culture, and posters, so I know that their feedback is firsthand and actionable in a way that someone who wasn't posted in D&D since literally any of the current staff have bee mods... aren't. Their impression can be enlightening but their specific critiques not so much. I don't need to have been actively posting here to be able to read pages upon pages of bad posts go unpunished while people who get mad at the bad posts going unpunished do get punished. The problems that got me to stop posting here are still here and have gotten worse, ever since PPJ was appointed as a new mod for posting massive twitter dumps on the daily. Mods picking mods picking mods has ensured that only people who like the way things are get put in charge and the same poo poo keeps happening. I am begging you to consider the fact that many wildly different posters who don't even like each other or post with each other elsewhere are all saying more or less that same thing.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:18
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fool of sound posted:On the other hand we have posters like Willa, Probably Magic, Lib and Let Die, or quite a few others who I know participate with the current rules, mods, culture, and posters, so I know that their critical feedback is firsthand and actionable in a way that someone who wasn't posted in D&D since literally any of the current staff have been mods... aren't. The latters' impressions can be enlightening but their specific critiques not so much. Oh ok so we've made progress. Instead of completely ignoring lurker feedback we've moved to at least reading that feedback and then assigning it a significantly lower value than the feedback of people who post frequently. Badass.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:21
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the o n l y people who think D&D is currently okay or would be okay but we need more forumbans and harsher punishments to drive out the bad-faith tankies who just want to be toxic and aggro for no reason are the small group of USPOL posters who want -- by their own admission -- a place to have fun with their posting pals laughing about the GOP and showing each other current news items but also want to be recognized as smart and good debate boys who argue like proper adults. They want a place to do "debate and discussion" BUT no one can derail the threads with something uncomfortable that they don't want to talk about, nor can they be "aggro", nor can they post the "wrong" news sources, nor can they post in "bad faith" (whatever the gently caress that means), nor can they challenge their opinions in the wrong ways, etc. etc. etc. No one wants this environment except for those people and the small number of mods who agree with them, who have been shown incontrovertibly over the last few days to moderate, at least in some significant part, on ideological grounds and in favor of their posting buddies, and who are also involved in an offsite discord. Again, no one wants this except for the exact same people everyone else is saying are the problem, that have turned long-time D&D posters off from posting here again as well as (also important!) lurkers and non-D&D posters from wanting to engage with D&D at all. If people in Games or Pet Island or AI or literally anywhere else on this website were telling the mod/admin staff "I've been a lurker but have no desire to interact with this forum because of the moderation" they'd think "holy poo poo we have to fix this" but instead because of the insular nature of the clique here and their aligned mods, we're getting "no only certain people's feedback is valuable, everyone else doesn't count" and the only changes that will come out of this will be some bullshit tweak like "3 unambiguous warnings before your threadban!" or "6ers are going to be less frequent 12ers!" or "we've promoted this one poster to mod!" that will not address the underlying issue and D&D will continue to be a problem forum that bleeds users and we can do this all again in a few months
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Oct 27, 2021 19:27
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I think it would be useful to hear from the mods like a mission statement for D&D, because I think there's definitely feedback that sits outside what I'd imagine that mission statement to be, and some that's feedback that's still relevant to that, even if it's coming from lurkers or C-SPAM posters. Like if it's "we should have respectful discussions" then "i should be allowed to shitpost" is just irrelevant feedback. If it's "this is a forum that is for people who support the US Democratic Party" (god i hope not), then "leftists get targeted" is irrelevant feedback. Everyone right now is arguing how D&D falls short of the personal image of what they want it to be, and there's absolutely zero way anyone is going to get consensus (even among the mods) for what to do in that situation. You can't have a mainstream Democratic party forum that's also a leftist forum that has long-form respectful discussions, but also posters can freely post tweets and have two pages of "lol lmao". There needs to be way to say "your feedback is not relevant because you're asking for something D&D isn't" that's not "you don't post here all the time".
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Oct 27, 2021 19:29
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:the o n l y people who think D&D is currently okay or would be okay but we need more forumbans and harsher punishments to drive out the bad-faith tankies who just want to be toxic and aggro for no reason are the small group of USPOL posters who want -- by their own admission -- a place to have fun with their posting pals laughing about the GOP and showing each other current news items but also want to be recognized as smart and good debate boys who argue like proper adults. This is extremely specific to USPol. I think some of the threads I post in are fine and good, but they are also threads where I never observe this sort of mod overreach and hardly anyone ever even gets probed outside of a few cases where everyone would agree it's justified. Like I literally can't remember the last probe that happened in CanPol.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:31
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Consider that a lot of these posters are people that used to be D&D posters (even regulars) and who have been driven out of the forum, either forcefully due to bad moderation, or who have voluntarily elected to stop participating in the threads because of bad moderation. Many of these people would still like to participate but the continuing bad policies and moderation actions, as well as the intractable refusal to seriously engage with any of the more pointed and direct criticisms, mean that their opinions get outright dismissed as trolling or just opinions that you don't want to care about because they're now considered outsiders and result in posts like this one that I'm responding to. Consider that a lot of people also left D&D because of some of those very posters you mention, and the moderators' inability or refusal to consistently moderate and punish the toxicity they bring. To avoid generalizing, I should specify that I'm talking about people who absolutely cannot help but be vicious assholes whenever they post in a D&D thread, or are barely able to conceal their disdain for the "libs" they are arguing with, and for the forum as a whole. I'm talking about people who come to this forum and to these threads not to bridge gaps in understanding and knowledge, but to exploit and widen them. I am curious, also, why those who abandoned D&D in favor of CSPAM keep coming back. Obviously they are welcome to. CSPAM, however, has thrown off its shackles and become a top-level forum. It too has plenty of threads for a variety of politics topics, and a much larger population of posters. Yet some of its denizens continue to reach for the pot of boiling water, so to speak, despite repeatedly being told by their pals not to. What is the point of continuing to post in D&D where the prevailing opinions and political stances frustrate the hell out of you? And if the goal is to expose yourself to differing opinions (which is actually commendable), why get insanely angry when that actually happens and why come to these feedback threads to complain about it? How many D&D regulars/mains also post in CSPAM, as opposed to vice versa, and why do you think that discrepancy exist, especially if one of those places actually has such bad moderation and policies like you claim?
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Oct 27, 2021 19:32
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CommieGIR posted:I'm not defending the decision. I'm saying I'm not going to go back and re-litigate all the bad probes that have likely happened, because if you think that's the only one, we've got a LOT of reviewing to do. Do you think that is realistic at all? You are defending it. You've come up with about a million excuses for why it was all you could have done, it was so long ago, people are just making up excuses to be mad, actually it was the bad CSPAM people, etc. You spent your time in the blow thread, this thread, and QCS haranguing users for even pointing it out. Then you shifted gears to playing the "woe is me, am I not allowed to make mistakes, if you prick a mod do we not bleed?" routine. It is unrealistic to expect that you should go back and relitigate all your decisions. That's why you should step down, because you're awful at this poo poo and only making things worse. quote:Setting the bar higher and determining the level of punishment is going to be an ongoing thing. The fact that you are mad because a new mod didn't put the screws down and therefore is beyond saving is laughable. Are you a new mod because you've been at this garbage forever. Maybe you should learn how to be better at your position or give it up. It's not laughable to expect a mod to do better than hand out a joke sixer for rape apologia and then spend the following weeks trying to get sick burns in on anyone who has the temerity to point out what a freak you are. quote:Also: If you view a sixer as "encouragement", yet you want mods to NOT use punishment as a feedback method, then you guys need to come to an understanding of what level of engagement you really want from the mods. The "encouragement" is the fact that is was only a sixer, the absolute bare minimum, after your hand was forced you dumb loving moron. The level of participation coming from you should be zero, because you have no idea how to control yourself.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:33
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Honestly think it would be better to just declare USPol a lost cause, let whatever the gently caress happen in there short of obviously illegal activity, and encourage people to make new threads by making it a miserable wasteland to post in. Not that I think the people currently being targeted by mods would be responsible for making it a wasteland, just that having a single thread to cover the entirety of US politics is always going to be garbage, and mods trying to force things to move to different threads clearly isn't working, so let posters learn that by just letting everyone discover how bad "every political topic ever in the same thread" is.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:34
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enki42 posted:I think it would be useful to hear from the mods like a mission statement for D&D, in case you missed it, Jeff outlined his vision for D&D this morning at the end of the QCS thread on D&D moderation: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3982691&pagenumber=61#post518794082 Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Okay, so for me, the most useful part of this all was to just ask people to explain. I feel more than ever that what I described as my ideal D&D is what I ought to be pursuing. Here is a more brief version:
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Oct 27, 2021 19:34
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Consider that a lot of people also left D&D because of some of those very posters you mention, and the moderators' inability or refusal to consistently moderate and punish the toxicity they bring. To avoid generalizing, I should specify that I'm talking about people who absolutely cannot help but be vicious assholes whenever they post in a D&D thread, or are barely able to conceal their disdain for the "libs" they are arguing with, and for the forum as a whole. I'm talking about people who come to this forum and to these threads not to bridge gaps in understanding and knowledge, but to exploit and widen them. Copy and pasting my statement from a parallel discussion: I don't necessarily enjoy only having my pre-existing beliefs reinforced. It'd be nice to have an intellectual challenge that isn't couched in some decorum-clad kayfabe requiring that one side present their criticisms as a compliment sandwich in which you have to acknowledge a good (or 'less evil') thing that the democrats do/did/want to do before you can in-good-faith criticize them for things they don't do/do but don't go far enough/do that are straight up evil. it's not helpful to my growth and evolution as a leftist to not be challenged on what i believe, and I really wish D&D were a place for that. sadly, I find I end up having more productive disagreements with my diehard republican in-laws than I seem to get in D&D. at least that's my 'attachment' to wanting to post in d&d
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Oct 27, 2021 19:35
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:if the goal is to expose yourself to differing opinions (which is actually commendable), why get insanely angry when that actually happens and why come to these feedback threads to complain about it? I think this point would have more weight with a citation but without one it just reads like 
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Oct 27, 2021 19:35
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:the o n l y people who think D&D is currently okay or would be okay but we need more forumbans and harsher punishments to drive out the bad-faith tankies who just want to be toxic and aggro for no reason are the small group of USPOL posters who want -- by their own admission -- a place to have fun with their posting pals laughing about the GOP and showing each other current news items but also want to be recognized as smart and good debate boys who argue like proper adults. And how many lurkers now need to chime in to prove you wrong on this rather strong assertion (with a bonus strawman)? I have generally enjoyed reading D&D for a long time and I pretty much never post in it except when this kind of meta-discussion and speaking-for-the-silent-majority occurs.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:36
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The hostility is why I post way less then I used to, it happens less now but there was a time that *posts a misleading or outright lying headline from the hill* *someone corrects them saying this is just lies* *WHY DO YOU LOVE THE LIBS SO MUCH YOU DEMOCRAT DEVIL* like the idea of vetting a source or even reading an article became a sign you were an evil lib and deserving of being harassed. Trying to explain the actual mechanics behind what's happening became a sign of support of that thing because you attempted to understand it.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:36
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enki42 posted:This is extremely specific to USPol. I think some of the threads I post in are fine and good, but they are also threads where I never observe this sort of mod overreach and hardly anyone ever even gets probed outside of a few cases where everyone would agree it's justified. Like I literally can't remember the last probe that happened in CanPol. yeah that's true, I am unfairly using D&D here as a stand-in for USPOL and USPOL-adjacent threads. The vast majority of non-USPOL D&D is fine and capable of moderating themselves.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:42
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D&D has a mission statement
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Oct 27, 2021 19:42
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Just wanted to say that the mods reaction to feedback itt has been pretty adversarial. The response to people giving their honest opinion about forum policy should not be "your opinion doesn't count because X". This is supposed to be a forum for debate and yet the people that run it can't stop attacking the messenger because they don't like the message. I don't know if any other feedback threads have this level of contention where one mod goes all in against his posting enemies and then tags out for another mod to do the same. It's very weird and inappropriate.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:49
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Lib and let die posted:I don't necessarily enjoy only having my pre-existing beliefs reinforced. It'd be nice to have an intellectual challenge that isn't couched in some decorum-clad kayfabe requiring that one side present their criticisms as a compliment sandwich in which you have to acknowledge a good (or 'less evil') thing that the democrats do/did/want to do before you can in-good-faith criticize them for things they don't do/do but don't go far enough/do that are straight up evil. Okay but the criticisms you mention usually take the form of "how do you explain this, liberals  " or some variation of it, rather than any genuine effort on your part (the royal "you", not you specifically), which gets tedious and exhausting to deal with and inevitably results in flame wars.The irony in your statement is that the denizens of D&D are probably 90% in alignment with you regarding the failures and shortcomings of the Democratic Party, and are as frustrated as you are. Everyone agrees that immigration is a ball they have dropped completely, for example. The issue is that the leftist criticisms use insanely over-the-top rhetoric like "Dems actually want brown people to suffer" — and at that point, contrary to what you claim, it becomes obvious that the poster is indeed only interested in reinforcing their pre-existing beliefs.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:50
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Just wanted to say that the mods reaction to feedback itt has been pretty adversarial. The response to people giving their honest opinion about forum policy should not be "your opinion doesn't count because X". This is supposed to be a forum for debate and yet the people that run it can't stop attacking the messenger because they don't like the message. Maybe I'm just approaching burnout but I no longer care to keep my positions on what feedback I think is useful private.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:51
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I am curious, also, why those who abandoned D&D in favor of CSPAM keep coming back. Obviously they are welcome to. CSPAM, however, has thrown off its shackles and become a top-level forum. It too has plenty of threads for a variety of politics topics, and a much larger population of posters. Yet some of its denizens continue to reach for the pot of boiling water, so to speak, despite repeatedly being told by their pals not to. What is the point of continuing to post in D&D where the prevailing opinions and political stances frustrate the hell out of you? And if the goal is to expose yourself to differing opinions (which is actually commendable), why get insanely angry when that actually happens and why come to these feedback threads to complain about it? I only came here because I made an observation in the QCS thread and CommieGIR "suggested" I post in here. There are some aspects of D&D I find appealing, like I would sometimes rather argue rightward than leftward, or the extended effortpost nature this forum should be about. I'm perfectly willing to accept that D&D is not the serious politics forum though, a position that has been seemingly reinforced by the regulars, the mod staff, and the admin staff in this thread. I mean come on, you're complaining that people have feedback you don't agree with in the feedback thread. If we want D&D to be a hugbox let's all just admit it and move on. Like I have a postcount under 1600 over 16 years, I don't really have "posting buddies". I haven't posted in here for months because I dislike the direction of the subforum that its been on for years and feels like it has only gotten worse. I also don't like that anything bordering on shitposting is forbidden, it's SA, a baseline level of shitposting is (or at least should be) baked into the crust. (Also as what qualifies as shitposting seems nebulous at best) In addition, anyone that dares to argue is labeled as a disruptive rear end in a top hat. But its fine, it is what it is, I would prefer if everyone here would just come out and say that D&D is a no argument zone outside of what is narrowly accepted by the "regulars" and stop all the theater of this is the spot where the grown ups come to talk.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:54
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