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Log082 posted:Anyone who actually builds cars for their citizens is playing the game wrong. Lol look at this dork who doesn't want to give the workers of the world the fruits of their labors
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Oct 30, 2021 01:22
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Volmarias posted:Lol look at this dork who doesn't want to give the workers of the world the fruits of their labors I do though. it's just that those fruits are trains, as they should be.
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Oct 30, 2021 01:42
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I like cars but I would really like if they took the car/car park logic and let you make bicycles instead. Cars are good as luxury vehicles but the true vehicle of the proletariat is the maoist bicycle. I like the automatic work assignment behaviour of cars but bikes would be a lot more space efficient while still letting you stretch your workers a bit further than walking. Thirding though that yes, the game is one of the best demonstrations of how loving stupid cars are from a city planning perspective.
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Oct 30, 2021 10:13
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OwlFancier posted:I like cars but I would really like if they took the car/car park logic and let you make bicycles instead. If people could walk more than 300 odd meters at a time, that would help. E: being able to treat roads under construction as at least dirt paths would be nice too, so that I don't have to set up a whole set of extra dirt paths on the side! Volmarias fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Oct 30, 2021 |
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Oct 30, 2021 20:38
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i'm sorry, i'm so sorry everyone
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Oct 31, 2021 05:00
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My only quarrel, I think, is that you probably don't need the forklift, if you connect factories directly to each other or to storage then they magically teleport resources across, of course it will be a bit iffy about offloading the stuff in the factory export storage to the second, separate storage, but if the factory fills up it should start filling the storage too. Otherwise if it works it's fine. Although I also strongly recommend getting a conveyor tower pack off the worshop because jesus wept the ones that the game comes with are garbo.
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Oct 31, 2021 11:43
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I would also recommend having a small aggregate storage between the gravel plant and the gravel consumers to act as a resource buffer.
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Oct 31, 2021 12:50
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Oh yes sorry that too, my brain farted and I thought your cement plant was the gravel factory and the gravel factory was a storage, yes you probably want a storage in there somewhere just cos the gravel plant is a pain in the arse to run consistently and it will help with load balancing a bit.
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Oct 31, 2021 15:33
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It's an absolute mess haha, and that's with using the workshop 1-3 conveyor. I didn't know there was an auto feed without forklifts so that'll help me lay stuff out when I give it another go a bit later today. That nightmare was after about the 6th or 7th restart, I usually put an aggregate storage somewhere in each step of the line, I must've rushed past it. I saw what my tangled mess of conveyors turned out to be and I figured I had to make my shame public
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Oct 31, 2021 15:52
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The best part about this patch is that signal logic works pretty well now. You can slap down signals in a way that makes sense at a glance and the trains will figure it out. You can get more efficient with signal chains and stuff but you don't have to. Previously I'd meticulously lay it all out following logic guides and I'd still have to manually unfuck trains constantly.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:00
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Lib and let die posted:i'm sorry, i'm so sorry everyone If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid. Also, are you going to put a road into that panel storage?
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Oct 31, 2021 16:19
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Yeah seriously while it's nice to have it look good, what's important is that it works, you don't gotta touch it afterwards. Forklifts honestly are kinda useless, they have really low throughput and actually making the necessary connections is a pain in the rear end to the point that if I need to move poo poo around factory complexes I just set a distribution center to do it with trucks. That moves goods faster and over longer distances using connections you need to make anyway. Automatic transfers only work between one building and a building it is directly connected to, and do not transfer through buildings, but they are 99% of the connections you actually care about because about the only things you can move via forklift are top level manufacturing products, basically. Chemicals, electronics etc. Anything you use in large volumes for construction is produced too fast to transfer with forklifts. Also if you haven't already, you might consider using road cargo stations to accelerate and centralize resource distribution, they will hook into any building they have a direct factory connection to (but again, do not facilitate transfer of resources between buildings they are connected to) and basically allow trucks to drop off or pick up from any of those buildings, at the road cargo station instead. The benefit is they often have better load/unload rates (same idea as an aggregate loader/unloader) and they add extra loading bays. Which is another reason to use trucks instead of forklifts because you can just add more loading bays using the cargo stations to accept more trucks. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 16:27
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah seriously while it's nice to have it look good, what's important is that it works, you don't gotta touch it afterwards. Yeah, forklifts really need a rework. That said, they do allow for otherwise pretty factory layouts if necessary, and for things like chemical factories they're about the only thing you can do unless you want to take the distro center route as mentioned before.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:30
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Volmarias posted:Yeah, forklifts really need a rework. That said, they do allow for otherwise pretty factory layouts if necessary, and for things like chemical factories they're about the only thing you can do unless you want to take the distro center route as mentioned before. By default though there isn't a road/factory crossing option, so they honestly I think don't make factories much easier to lay out. Maybe specifically for chemical factories with their multiple tiny resource loads but for electronics you want a good number of workers and I found it easy to just connect it all to a central warehouse.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:34
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Forklifts are an obscure quirk that exist for very specific layouts because of the pull logic in connections breaking down with multiple storages. If you aren't doing galaxy brain mega factory multiple warehouse criss crosses split into road and train depots every factory connection can be point to point in the form of production unit<->warehouse<->road/train depot. Road depot to road depot is a real thing and make a bit more industrial sense than some of the 500+m forklift paths you get daisy chaining forklift garages. You would generally run a truck shuttle at that distance.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:48
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zedprime posted:Road depot to road depot is a real thing and make a bit more industrial sense than some of the 500+m forklift paths you get daisy chaining forklift garages. You would generally run a truck shuttle at that distance. I've experimented with short-line rail for some things too. It's a little tricky to pull off well and it's usually not more efficient than trucks but having a large industrial complex with it's own internal rail can look really cool. The biggest downside is a lack of small electric switchers, even via mods. At least there's some diesel stuff out there.
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Oct 31, 2021 17:27
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OwlFancier posted:By default though there isn't a road/factory crossing option, so they honestly I think don't make factories much easier to lay out. Maybe specifically for chemical factories with their multiple tiny resource loads but for electronics you want a good number of workers and I found it easy to just connect it all to a central warehouse. In situations where I really needed the crossing, I made a dip in the ground for the connector to go, and a small bridge over the top. It's not elegant but it worked.
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Oct 31, 2021 23:32
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have they made trains work better for commuting yet or do you still need a direct line for it to work? last time i played was around a year ago i believe.
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Nov 3, 2021 17:58
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Daisy chaining them is quite impractical still, I think, but you can run trains to industrial plants to staff them well enough.
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Nov 3, 2021 17:59
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They have changes some of the behaviors around stations that allow a bus>train transfer without switching stations, if that’s what you mean.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:00
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i believe that before if you had multiple stations on the same line and the train stopped at each one, they wouldnt end up at the last station. is it practical to run entirely with trains and trams?
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Nov 3, 2021 18:06
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If you tell them to unload at a station they will try to ship out as many passengers as there are open jobs, so if you want to run through several locations to load and then drop off at a plant, you just set them to load at all stations except the one you want to send them to to work. You could probably do it all with trains but generally you would use whatever transport is appropriate, makes little sense for example to run trains to staff a heating plant because they need few workers and are necessarily built in bus range of the city, but a major steel plant would be done by train because you need it far away enough to stop the pollution reaching your city.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:15
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OwlFancier posted:If you tell them to unload at a station they will try to ship out as many passengers as there are open jobs, so if you want to run through several locations to load and then drop off at a plant, you just set them to load at all stations except the one you want to send them to to work. Imo while it should be close to the city, by the point you need a larger plant it shouldn't be TOO near the city. You need to either have sacrificial households who can reach it on foot, or you need to have some kind of train / cable / whatever from wherever they CAN walk to. Otherwise, you can really, really hope that the bus system doesn't gently caress up when it snows, but that's almost never a good idea. Same for power plants and other "must run" infrastructure that is also too dirty or too impractical (fire stations) to keep nearby.
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Nov 3, 2021 21:40
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I usually settle for a snowplough depot next to the heating plant and regular but small bus trips, plus a car park. The issue with distancing is that I think you have a pretty small window where you can put it before you end up running out of range on the pipes, if you want to get max utilization out of a heating plant there is quite a small range where it can go.
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Nov 4, 2021 08:05
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The real hell with pollution comes when you start uniting industries in small areas which is easy and convenient to do. “Oh hey I have 300 spare workers” is a great excuse to stuff 6 more heavy polluters just on the edge of town because they still have to commute right? But then a few years later you notice the deaths and check the absolute hell cloud you’ve created. You can still absolutely hurt people with a heating plant, but one heating plant won’t choke a city unless it has help or is like, surrounded by homes.
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Nov 4, 2021 08:12
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In our glorious republic the Steel Mill is in walking distance from the worker's homes! In unrelated news my population is dropping like a stone since the update, I guess the government loyalty mechanic does not play nice with old saves?
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Nov 5, 2021 22:31
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It should be OK? But you do absolutely need to stabilize it now, if it falls below about 30 your population will basically collapse. If your previous saves had very low loyalty you might have trouble.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:46
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I swear I read that the update breaks earlier save games.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:54
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My old games pre-loyalty patch had pretty consistently 0 loyalty, though granted I wasn’t very reliable with TV stations or Radio stations that encouraged loyalty since it didn’t matter.
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Nov 5, 2021 23:20
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In my more recent save, I've gotten into a loyalty death spiral myself, though I stabilized it to about being able to use >35 loyalty for teachers etc. It turns out that this game is much, much harder when you decide to keep your town that exists in the center of the map instead of just throwing a shanty town up on the edge and building from there. I'm playing the Finland map, and while fun, it's also somewhat brutal when you restrict yourself that way. Now that I actually have a steel mill, I'll really hoping that completing the radio station will actually help to bump this all back up. As an aside, I really do wish I could pay to send students across the border to do University study instead of having to pay entirely new people to come. Why can't I send my prodigal children to study at the great universities of Tallinn if I'm not allowed Helsinki? <  >Or, like, kick out the orphans, since they're all apparently going to grow up to hate the state too, ungrateful shits. Don't you see that giant concrete statue of Lenin? Don't you see how good things are here???
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Nov 6, 2021 21:09
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The last patch did something that changed loyalty a lot, my 80% baseline dropped to 50%. My schools that require 80% loyalty are still getting staffed, so I'm not really sure what is going on.
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Nov 7, 2021 06:47
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So, individual loyalty per citizen is different from your average, also if you haven't built a secret police you won't know the individual loyalty of citizens and if you don't know, they are allowed to work anywhere. Radio stations and TV stations are very important for maintaining loyalty, the most important thing is to have them staffed as much as possible and dump as much time as you can into propaganda programming, then as your loyatly level stabilizes and you staff them with more loyal people, you can draw that back and put other stuff into the programming, because they will improve loyalty just by the fact that they have loyal people staffing them. You generally want to make a small village near the radio station to house your radio workers and also give them all nice sports cars, because the more loyal they are the more loyal everyone else will be. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 11:32
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I've started playing W&R today and am gradually figuring out some stuff. Bus stops are confusing me though. I have a small town with just two bus stops and a bus that runs back and forth between them. Citizens will wait at one of the bus stops, except when an empty bus comes, some of them don't get on the bus even though there's space - they just seem to stay at the stop. Is this something like a weird abstraction of the numbers, a bug in the way buses work, or are they waiting to go somewhere that the bus route doesn't run to yet?
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Nov 8, 2021 00:13
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Danger - Octopus! posted:I've started playing W&R today and am gradually figuring out some stuff. Much of your goal as a new player is to learn how to start tailoring your routes to this goal orientation instead of destination orientation. Workers are a resource you convey to places they need with an exact supply chain, not a murky web of public transport you might be familiar with from something like Cities Skylines. Forbid certain goals on the routes and the stations, make sure their path isn't more complicated than maybe one route change (likely due to transportation mode change), use the tools to assign specific bus stations to specific homes or businesses etc. Above all change gears to see them as specific people shuttles with specific goals which behave to your specification.
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Nov 8, 2021 00:52
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zedprime posted:People don't leave home with a destination in mind, only a goal: go to work, go to need meeting activities, go to school. They'll either walk to one of these things in range if they meet the need, or else go to a random bus stop serving their home. While waiting at the bus stop, they check if the bus 1. allows someone with their goal to get on and 2. if the bus actually serves the goal somewhere down route. They don't check the bus stop so your glorious worker stop will fill up with grocery shoppers who will never find their grocery shopping bus if you don't forbid leisure users from the stop itself. Aaaah ok thanks
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Nov 8, 2021 01:00
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Yeah it is best to conceptualize workers as a kind of resource that is generated by housing, and which you need to stuff into all buildings to make them run. If you build the building near housing then they will walk there, but further away you need to use transport systems. Generally you want to try and make sure that all houses have their services in walking distance because it's a pain in the rear end to try and work out non-worker transport for them, and then just use your transport systems to get people to work (they will teleport home on their own, people are less like people and more like labour-payload homing missiles that look for nearby buildings to deliver eight hours of work to)
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Nov 8, 2021 01:01
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nevermind!
Tabletops fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 10:59
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what do people do with all the little villages? I've been leaving them as is and pulling them for construction projects by plopping down a bus stop.
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Nov 13, 2021 00:14
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punishedkissinger posted:what do people do with all the little villages? I've been leaving them as is and pulling them for construction projects by plopping down a bus stop. That's a good use for them but I end up purging most of the small villages because they're Not Efficient so I move everyone to a bigger city until I can redo their hamlet with apartment blocks and schools and shops. I really want to try and pay more attention to respecting old cities but its usually so hard with the way I approach the game.
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Nov 13, 2021 04:36
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punishedkissinger posted:what do people do with all the little villages? I've been leaving them as is and pulling them for construction projects by plopping down a bus stop. I feel like they're flavor to be used as you wish; a tourist destination makes that much more sense if there's a feeling of history to it, especially if you're building a museum or something.
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Nov 13, 2021 04:49
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