Which horse film is your favorite? This poll is closed. |
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Black Beauty | 2 | 1.06% | |
A Talking Pony!?! | 4 | 2.13% | |
Mr. Hands 2x Apple Flavor | 117 | 62.23% | |
War Horse | 11 | 5.85% | |
Mr. Hands | 54 | 28.72% | |
Total: | 188 votes |
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I'm still not sure where these "the vaccines have decoupled cases and bad outcomes" takes are coming from, I'm not seeing that on a population scale anywhere.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:31 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 12:16 |
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freebooter posted:Do you think it's desirable for Western countries (with large foreign-born populations who have family overseas) to massively curtail travel forever? Do you think it's desirable, or proportionate to the threat in a highly vaccinated population, to throw entire cities into lockdown at the drop of a hat every time a case leaks in? Yup! People should not worry. Worry can also be treated. Just do your duty for today and know it does not matter as death will obliterate all.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:33 |
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:So… if you’re 11 years and 11 months old, you get a 1/3 of an “adult” dose? And if you’re a month older, you get the full thing? Seems kinda weird, and I guess you’d just want to wait that last month to give your 12yo the full dose, right?
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:35 |
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poll plane variant posted:I'm still not sure where these "the vaccines have decoupled cases and bad outcomes" takes are coming from, I'm not seeing that on a population scale anywhere. To use your own example, Singapore's 7-day case average (in a country of 5.8 million) is 3,575 a day. Their 7-day death average is 13 a day. If their current outbreak were ripping through a largely unvaccinated 2020 population, you'd expect to see hundreds of deaths a day with case numbers like that. The UK is recording twice as many cases a day as they were this time last year, yet only a fraction of the deaths.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:35 |
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freebooter posted:I don't know how you jump from "zero-COVID is not sustainable or desirable in the long term" to "America had a good pandemic outcome." China's people, their health, and their economy are better for "throwing cities into lockdown at the drop of a hat" (this is not actually what happens FYI, you are spouting propaganda--they test entire cities and areas and quarantine as appropriate). How do you explain that?
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:44 |
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Vasukhani posted:So we just should accept that they have a better system? Individual freedoms is the product of a delusion that suggests individuals are important and have souls. It needs to be attacked to compete in modernity. I have no problem accepting that in edge cases, like pandemics, China's highly sophisticated technological authoritarianism proves to be more effective. Doesn't mean anything deeper philosophically or mean I'd want to live there. I mean, it seems to be a more competitive, effective system in general and eventually the world will all be One glorious whole China, but that's a different conversation.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:48 |
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freebooter posted:To use your own example, Singapore's 7-day case average (in a country of 5.8 million) is 3,575 a day. Their 7-day death average is 13 a day. If their current outbreak were ripping through a largely unvaccinated 2020 population, you'd expect to see hundreds of deaths a day with case numbers like that. How much of this, especially in the UK, is rapid testing? What's the rate of testing now vs then?
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:51 |
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That just made it way more confusing and sounds like someone should just wait til their kid is 12 to get their first dose if they’re close.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:17 |
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The vast majority of the world is not locking down again, period. "Zero covid" is not a viable strategy in the face of Delta, period. Most countries have chosen to accept the reality of the virus and try to co-exist with it.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:19 |
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Both "China's zero covid strategy is indisputably better and should be the goal for everyone" and "zero covid is impossible and countries will just have to give up and live with the virus" are correct, because the governments and societies of the West are too dysfunctional and enmeshed with neoliberal interests and ideology to follow the China model even if they wanted to. It just gets me that people tie themselves in knots to justify how being unable to control a pandemic is a hallmark of a free and open society rather than an inevitable result of decades of erosion of public services and infrastructure.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:28 |
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mod sassinator posted:China's people, their health, and their economy are better for "throwing cities into lockdown at the drop of a hat" (this is not actually what happens FYI, you are spouting propaganda--they test entire cities and areas and quarantine as appropriate). Lockdown at the drop of a hat is how it worked in Australia (until, thanks to Delta, it didn't work.) China does still do localised lockdowns sometimes, including closing schools etc. Having a zero COVID life was great when it worked. But there was a constant sense of tension every time a case got reported, because you had no idea whether you were about to be thrown into a lockdown for a week or three, whether you'd have to cancel your interstate flight, reschedule a wedding, miss a job interview, etc etc. It's not about "number go up," it's about people wanting to be able to live their loving lives. It was a great alternative to the death and disruption that wreaked havoc across the northern hemisphere when that was the only alternative. But that isn't, anymore. We can control the virus through high vaccination rates and NPIs like masks, vaccine mandates etc. poll plane variant posted:How much of this, especially in the UK, is rapid testing? What's the rate of testing now vs then? I wouldn't have a clue but I highly doubt that the massive disparity between deaths as a percentage of COVID cases now is simply down to increased testing. If you want a better comparison, look at Victoria's 2020 outbreak vs NSW's 2021 outbreak (which occurred after the elderly and vulnerable had all been vaccinated).
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:30 |
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Chadzok posted:Doesn't mean anything deeper philosophically or mean I'd want to live there. What you want literally doesn't matter? You don't really have wishes/desires.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:35 |
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:That just made it way more confusing and sounds like someone should just wait til their kid is 12 to get their first dose if they’re close. It gets more confusing. If the kid gets their first shot on their twelfth birthday and it’s ten micrograms, that’s a failure and you have to give them the first shot again in the proper dosage of thirty micrograms, so three shots total, with more total active ingredient (seventy micrograms) than adults get (sixty). If they’re three weeks and one day under twelve years of age when they start the series, they get the ten microgram dose for both shots and that is cool and good; they are fully vaccinated with a total of twenty micrograms. I understand how the rules can lead to this conclusion, but it’s a weird discontinuity where there a presumption of strong caution about injury from overdose when kids are just under twelve, but at just over that age, it flips to caution of COVID‑19 and full dosage is absolutely necessary to prevent that. I’m surprised they didn’t add some grace period. Like, they could have said that if the patient is twelve to fifteen years old, a ten‐microgram first dose given in error does not need to be repeated, provided the second shot is dosed properly. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Nov 3, 2021 |
# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:45 |
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Vasukhani posted:What you want literally doesn't matter? You don't really have wishes/desires. I really don't know wtf you're on about, sorry
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:48 |
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Both "China's zero covid strategy is indisputably better and should be the goal for everyone" and "zero covid is impossible and countries will just have to give up and live with the virus" are correct, because the governments and societies of the West are too dysfunctional and enmeshed with neoliberal interests and ideology to follow the China model even if they wanted to. I mean the special way the UK/Europe/the US messed up their response is certainly down to all of that but at this point even communist Vietnam has given up on zero covid.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:53 |
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Chadzok posted:I really don't know wtf you're on about, sorry Part of being a modern person is dehumanizing yourself and not caring about what you think you want. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:06 |
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freebooter posted:Lockdown at the drop of a hat is how it worked in Australia (until, thanks to Delta, it didn't work.) China does still do localised lockdowns sometimes, including closing schools etc. Singapore still has a host of restrictions on all sorts of events - you can't go to a dinner with a group of more than 2 people - and the restrictions have recently been extended at short notice. If you think we can control the virus without having to worry about cancelling your wedding plans you may be in for an unpleasant surprise. Centusin posted:I mean the special way the UK/Europe/the US messed up their response is certainly down to all of that but at this point even communist Vietnam has given up on zero covid. They gave up on hard lockdown, but it's still theoretically possible to reach a zero covid target at some future date if you maintain moderate levels of restrictions for long enough, at which point you can reestablish border controls and quarantines. ModernMajorGeneral fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Nov 3, 2021 |
# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:10 |
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Vasukhani posted:Part of being a modern person is dehumanizing yourself and not caring about what you think you want. Chadzok posted:I really don't know wtf you're on about, sorry
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:12 |
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Both "China's zero covid strategy is indisputably better and should be the goal for everyone" and "zero covid is impossible and countries will just have to give up and live with the virus" are correct, because the governments and societies of the West are too dysfunctional and enmeshed with neoliberal interests and ideology to follow the China model even if they wanted to. You didn't have to follow the PRC model to contain Covid. Taiwan has done it within a sizable liberal democracy. Though I think even what they were able to do would have been really hard in the political environment and current institutional state of the US, UK, and others. It probably would have taken some sort of PATRIOT Act for pandemics. What has worked for PRC to contain Covid has not been that extreme. We just all have really vivid images in mind from the early pandemic of dudes in hazmat suits spraying neighborhoods and misunderstood stories about sealing people into buildings. But it does require fast action and sustained discipline. Control borders with quarantines. Test like crazy. Track, trace, and quarantine cases. Isolate outbreaks. Implement sensible NPIs. Build up hospital capacity. Vaccinate like crazy when it becomes possible. Of course, a lot of countries did do a lot of this for a long time until Delta overwhelmed them, and now they're adapting to new approaches, which are still a far cry from dropping all policies and lettin' it rip. Delta is making some small inroads in mainland China. Maybe they'll succeed in keeping it contained where others have not. For the sake of people in China, I hope so. I also don't know if these methods would work once the cat is out of the bag and Covid is raging like a bull in a Thomas Friedman mixed metaphor (i.e., the situation many countries find themselves in). I doubt it. Then you're probably looking at much more extreme forms of lock down on a larger scale if you want to get to Covid zero. Finally, I think the Covid policies that worked for PRC (and others) get conflated with adopting the entire PRC sociopolitical, economic, ideological, etc., model. This goes both ways. Those who are really anti-PRC instinctively reject the valuable lessons. Those who are PRC fanboys see it all as vindication of everything about PRC and reject any constructive lessons or nuance.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:43 |
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Vasukhani posted:Part of being a modern person is dehumanizing yourself and not caring about what you think you want. There's gotta be a better thread to argue kinks in. Anyway, Regarding the talks of failed vaccine strategies worldwide, are there any good discussions of long-term strategies online? Just anecdotally, we cannot do this forever, I see everyone around me straining at the seams from all the secondary effects of Covid (supply chain, burnout, altered mental health, constant anxiety). I've never seen so many people discuss healthcare rationing as punishment for antivaxxers. The mental toll alone is going to be a weird reverberation for generations, like how you had Great Depression parents growing up insisting expired canned food was fine to eat and hoarding poo poo. Realistically, if you can't have 0 covid, how do you get to the point where it joins the background radiation of "disease that kills some people every year but not enough to launch global campaigns over"? Enforce vaccination and boosters as needed, and develop and manufacture better palliative and prophylactic medicine to drop the overall R0 and make it a "flu" type thing we just live with? Smeef posted:I also don't know if these methods would work once the cat is out of the bag and Covid is raging like a bull in a Thomas Friedman mixed metaphor (i.e., the situation many countries find themselves in). I doubt it. Then you're probably looking at much more extreme forms of lock down on a larger scale if you want to get to Covid zero. I think we could all (as a planet, not just the US) be slow-burning this poo poo like China if we'd also locked up for a month or so at the start of all this, but uh, nope, we didn't. Regarding your last paragraph, I don't think there are many other governments that have the degree of legislative and practical control over their citizenry that makes this approach possible. I'm not instantly suspect of everything China does, but this is one of the few places where their ability to say "I don't care what you think, here's what you're doing" as a government is a massive advantage. spouse fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Nov 3, 2021 |
# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:44 |
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spouse posted:he mental toll alone is going to be a weird reverberation for generations, like how you had Great Depression parents growing up insisting expired canned food was fine to eat and hoarding poo poo. Good sardines age like fine wine, and I will fight your rear end for a good vintage of Rodel.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:49 |
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You're all making this out to be far more complicated than it need be. Simply nerve staple your citizens. Drone riots will not occur for at least 10 turns.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:53 |
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Smeef posted:You didn't have to follow the PRC model to contain Covid. Taiwan has done it within a sizable liberal democracy. Though I think even what they were able to do would have been really hard in the political environment and current institutional state of the US, UK, and others. It probably would have taken some sort of PATRIOT Act for pandemics. Aren't you basically saying that what worked for the PRC to contain covid has been successfully adopted by Taiwan and for periods of time other zero covid countries... in which case they kind of are following the PRC model, although not every aspect of it? I accept that people in Taiwan would be annoyed that their successful covid strategy would be called the 'PRC model'. I concede that you don't have to tell Western countries to 'do what the PRC did' when you could tell them to 'do what Taiwan did' instead, but it's largely splitting hairs if you accept that the core successful parts of the strategy (and overarching goal of zero covid) are common to both places. It's also consistent with what I was saying that Western governments are mostly incapable of following Taiwan's example as well as the PRC's.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:53 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:You're all making this out to be far more complicated than it need be. The Human Hive developed the virus in a lab!
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 07:55 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:You're all making this out to be far more complicated than it need be. Basically. Except you need to pass the most strict acts, and then simply eliminate those who resist with the overwhelming power of the state. There is a reason we pay taxes.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:01 |
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Aren't you basically saying that what worked for the PRC to contain covid has been successfully adopted by Taiwan and for periods of time other zero covid countries... in which case they kind of are following the PRC model, although not every aspect of it? I don't think Taiwan adopted their policies from PRC. Calling it the 'PRC model' is probably wrong. I think it's more that they chose the same logical policies that many policymakers from around the world would have liked. I don't know as much about what, say, Australia, NZ, and Singapore actually did, but my impression is that it wasn't too dissimilar. And it worked really well in those places until it didn't. It's still working in places like mainland China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. I think that Western governments could have followed it, and some did, though perhaps not to the same degree or with the same level of success. I'm reluctant to generalize too much, though, because I don't know that much about every country's policies or experience.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:08 |
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Smeef posted:I don't think Taiwan adopted their policies from PRC. Calling it the 'PRC model' is probably wrong. I think it's more that they chose the same logical policies that many policymakers from around the world would have liked. I don't know as much about what, say, Australia, NZ, and Singapore actually did, but my impression is that it wasn't too dissimilar. And it worked really well in those places until it didn't. It's still working in places like mainland China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. We did do a lot of this stuff here in Australia and it worked fine for a long time. You're basically right that we adopted a bunch of sensible policies but not as many as we should have and with moderate but only partial success. The things that I think that were missing that prevented us from achieving similar success to the PRC, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc: - building infrastructure (we never had any purpose built quarantine facilities, leading to constant leaks from hotel quarantines, leading to longer lockdowns) - no covid hospitals due to the above (not yet relevant but might be soon enough) - more stringent restrictions (you could wander around during the lockdowns for all sorts of reasons and it was easy to cook up excuses to avoid enforcement, though I don't know how that compares to the PRC) - ongoing workplace transmission with poor enforcement of workplace NPIs (though again I'm sure this happened in the PRC at some point) - testing (while we had reasonable numbers of tests we never had the mass rollout of tests to entire cities in the same way the PRC was able to do. There was also the problem of access - eg when I had to go get tested I had to decide whether I was willing to walk through the city feeling like poo poo or expose people on public transport/a taxi driver to covid. As far as I can tell locally delivered testing was better in China, like how you could be randomly tested on the street?) - fatigue (people always say about how the most recent lockdown which led to us giving up was evidence that we could never control delta covid, but we could have maintained the most recent lockdown for much longer if people hadn't been burned out by all the lockdowns from previous policy failures) - ideology (hard to maintain isolation of outbreaks and quarantines when you have to deal with a domestic open'er'up lobby and are plugged into the US media landscape, and have an ultraconservative government)
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:26 |
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Singapore still has a host of restrictions on all sorts of events - you can't go to a dinner with a group of more than 2 people - and the restrictions have recently been extended at short notice. If you think we can control the virus without having to worry about cancelling your wedding plans you may be in for an unpleasant surprise. Temporarily re-implementing restrictions as you open up for the very first time in a highly vaccinated but virologically naive populace (as in, negligible existing levels of immunity from previous outbreaks) is different from constantly living under a sword of Damocles of a total shutdown (as in, only leave your house for food/exercise/work/medical care) at any given moment. I lost track of how many of these lockdowns different Australian jurisdictions did as cases leaked out of hotel quarantine or came in through air freight; I think it was over 30. My state did 6. Some last a week, some lasted four months. It's better than what happened in the US and Europe over the past two years, but post-vaccination, it's no way to live in the long run. quote:They gave up on hard lockdown, but it's still theoretically possible to reach a zero covid target at some future date if you maintain moderate levels of restrictions for long enough, at which point you can reestablish border controls and quarantines. This is also part of the reason why Australia and NZ's lockdown policies stopped working for Delta - both countries were at 20 or 30%ish double jabbed when those outbreaks began. Theoretically I think yes, it might be possible to beat Delta through lockdowns if you have a highly vaccinated populace. But there is no appetite or social energy left to do that, both for the reasons I said above and also because both Australia and NZ are heavily multicultural countries where a huge chunk of the populace has close family overseas. (To say nothing of the economic problems of having a permanently closed border.) People put up with Fortress Australia when the other option was mass death and overloaded hospital systems. They are not going to do that any longer. edit - OK lol I didn't realise you're also Australian. There's lots practical, logistical and social reasons we can't just "do what the PRC did." ModernMajorGeneral posted:- building infrastructure (we never had any purpose built quarantine facilities, leading to constant leaks from hotel quarantines, leading to longer lockdowns) This would've been useful but worth noting that the current Delta outbreak which started in Sydney and spread to Victoria and NZ came from a Fedex freight crew, who wouldn't have been going into hotel quarantine anyway. quote:- more stringent restrictions (you could wander around during the lockdowns for all sorts of reasons and it was easy to cook up excuses to avoid enforcement, though I don't know how that compares to the PRC) We don't have the ability to enforce lockdown the way China does because we're not a police state in the first place. I think Melbourne 2020 vs 2021 illustrated that pretty starkly. The first year we had community buy-in; the second year people were exhausted and Victoria Police literally does not have the manpower to be cracking down on every secret party and illegal gathering. quote:- ideology (hard to maintain isolation of outbreaks and quarantines when you have to deal with a domestic open'er'up lobby and are plugged into the US media landscape, and have an ultraconservative government) I don't think this was ever a major factor. You had the usual suspects calling for it, but in terms of actual governance, state governments from both political parties took a competent and technocratic approach to pandemic management, to broad community support. freebooter fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Nov 3, 2021 |
# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:36 |
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Vasukhani posted:Basically. Except you need to pass the most strict acts, and then simply eliminate those who resist with the overwhelming power of the state. There is a reason we pay taxes. We must learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:51 |
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freebooter posted:
I agree with this, I was saying it from when I initially started this chain of posting. The point I'm trying to make is that is the various reasons that we were unable to emulate the PRC (or Taiwan, if you get really hung up on being opposed to the PRC) are a result of social and governmental deficits/problems and that the PRC's (and Taiwan's) approach is better even if we can't replicate it.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:52 |
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:We did do a lot of this stuff here in Australia and it worked fine for a long time. You're basically right that we adopted a bunch of sensible policies but not as many as we should have and with moderate but only partial success. Honestly when I compare HK to Australia, I don't know what explains the difference. It might just be a matter of time. Comparing your points one by one:
I guess my point is that containing Covid so far has not required extreme or perfect policies and behaviors that are inconceivable for other places. Don't get me wrong, though, I recognize that all of those variables — social, policy, implementation, etc. — would be harder in other contexts.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:55 |
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Anyone have any strong opinions on choice of booster vaccine? I got my Tozinameran* doses back in December and January, and since we can mix now I have the option to get another of that or I could get Elasomeran* for the first time. I should probably just get the former and be done with it, but it doesn't even matter to me so I was curious what others thought. *I work in a hospital pharmacy, I use INNs exclusively, I loving hate pharma companies and don't get me started about it here.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 08:57 |
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I was tempted to get Ad26.COV2-S myself because the delivery mechanism is different, the vector is different, the spike it generates is (slightly) structurally different, and as a consequence of some combination of those, the kinetics are different and perhaps it ultimately leads to better cellular immunity. But I just can’t look at the antibody figures and think it’s a good idea when we know that you want robust antibodies especially versus delta. Comedy option: get Tozinameran, but get it entered onto your card as “Tozinameran” so you’ll be in for trouble every time you travel internationally or otherwise need to prove vaccination history.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 09:49 |
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You might be able to trick a few anti-vaxxers into getting their jabs by making some social media posts extolling this great new drug called tozinameran. Maybe throw in a few dodgy pre-prints that are tangentially related to it and something about promising trials underway with white-tail deer populations.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 12:47 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:We must learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment. Look that's great and all and I agree in part but don't go acting like you get outside of yourself. Transcend this reality and all you will find are the folds of your unexpectedly developed equine prefrontal cortex and the close confines of your skull.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 13:14 |
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I think the differences between China and other places really does come down to enforcement. On paper a lot of the lockdowns aren't really all THAT different. In Ontario during the 3rd wave, at least by the official rules:
The problem was some of these (basically personal gathering limits and reasons for leaving your house) can't realistically be enforced. Our provincial government tried to give police the right to stop anyone for questioning, but this was (quite rightly) met with intense opposition, because most people realize in a North American context giving police the right to stop random people on the street is a horrible idea with the track record to show what a horrible idea it is. enki42 fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Nov 3, 2021 |
# ? Nov 3, 2021 14:00 |
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enki42 posted:
North American and European states are so weak and powerless. I just hope the Chinese are humane when they eliminate the population centers. (good nuke clusters) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 14:07 |
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Atomizer posted:Anyone have any strong opinions on choice of booster vaccine? I got my Tozinameran* doses back in December and January, and since we can mix now I have the option to get another of that or I could get Elasomeran* for the first time. I should probably just get the former and be done with it, but it doesn't even matter to me so I was curious what others thought. I went for three doses of CVX 208, but I would've taken 207 as well. It hit me like a loving truck, like it did on the 2nd dose. Fever, chills, headache, brain fog, general aches and pains. Then just gone after about 36 hours.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 14:49 |
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CVS and Walgreens have started scheduling vaccines for kids. Have my son's first scheduled for Sunday.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 15:00 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 12:16 |
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dalstrs posted:CVS and Walgreens have started scheduling vaccines for kids. Have my son's first scheduled for Sunday. Awesome for you! Can't wait til I can get my soon to be 3 year old vaccinated. Scheduled my booster for tomorrow. Gonna be Moderna after getting pfizer, hope it doesn't knock me down too much.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 15:22 |