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I think that any new outlet worth its salt ought to be able to hold up four feet of 14/3 AWG no problem. Yeah, you’re probably better off securing the cord up there so it does’t come down on your eye or something, but do consider letting it break away easily at table height so that it’s less likely to cause big problems if you snag it on something.
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Oct 19, 2021 16:50
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SpartanIvy posted:If it was me, I'd hang it like a pendant light fixture and have a metal support wire that supports the outlet box to the ceiling and have the electrical wire run parallel to. Just make sure it's all grounded. These are my new favorite Fan box. super easy to install and rock solid. Would be good for a hanging cord as well. https://www.amazon.com/Madison-Electric-Products-MSBFAN-Adjustable/dp/B00H8NV1SM
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Oct 20, 2021 17:44
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The electrician installing the wiring for my mini-split said that code had changed recently (last 5 years or so) around the number of conductors that could be run through a single hole in a joist. I see 334.80 mentions some things about maximum ampacity when the framing is to be sealed with "thermal insulation, caulk, or sealing foam" but this is just in the ceiling of an unfinished basement with no sealing being done. But then again it's basically impossible to really "search" the code so maybe some other section mentions joists.
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Oct 25, 2021 18:30
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FISHMANPET posted:The electrician installing the wiring for my mini-split said that code had changed recently (last 5 years or so) around the number of conductors that could be run through a single hole in a joist. I see 334.80 mentions some things about maximum ampacity when the framing is to be sealed with "thermal insulation, caulk, or sealing foam" but this is just in the ceiling of an unfinished basement with no sealing being done. But then again it's basically impossible to really "search" the code so maybe some other section mentions joists. Isn't the mini-split stuff usually multi-conductor armored / metal clad? Maybe they're worried about people trying to cram an assload of NM through a single 3/4" hole or something.
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Oct 25, 2021 18:50
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The outdoor unit is fed from the panel, and then the interior units are fed with a special/dedicated cable that runs with the line set from the outdoor unit. This was mostly just idle chat, he was taking a look at what we had currently, including some 3/4" holes with 4 NM cables in it. He put the 10 AWG (what will actually power the unit) and the 14 AWG (for an exterior outlet required by code) in separate holes. But he mentioned four conductors as a max per hole, and that a regular cable has 2 conductors, so functionally you're limited to 2 NM cables per hole. But no idea where he's getting that from. Mostly worried I ran too much NM through existing joist holes when I added new outlets to the basement 
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Oct 25, 2021 18:59
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I’m a bit confused about 3 phase. I’m having some problems with my 5hp 3 phase 230v table saw motor, but before I pulled the motor I wanted to do basic amp/voltage tests with it hooked up etc. I get 240v between any two legs of the Line in, but between Line and Ground I get 120v for two of the three legs, and 240v for the third leg. Shouldn’t the third leg be lower? 208? I tested at both the line into the machine and the line out to the motor on the other side of the switch/transformer thing and get the same readings with the saw on and off (obviously nothing on the other side of the switch with the saw off). Max amperage on startup was 50A and about 5A while running per my clamp on ampmeter, which all seems normal? Anyway this is all above my pay grade and it’s going to the motor shop, I’m just trying to understand things a bit better and make sure the problem isn’t to do with the power to the machine or something.
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Oct 26, 2021 21:12
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:I’m a bit confused about 3 phase. I’m having some problems with my 5hp 3 phase 230v table saw motor, but before I pulled the motor I wanted to do basic amp/voltage tests with it hooked up etc. I get 240v between any two legs of the Line in, but between Line and Ground I get 120v for two of the three legs, and 240v for the third leg. Shouldn’t the third leg be lower? 208? I tested at both the line into the machine and the line out to the motor on the other side of the switch/transformer thing and get the same readings with the saw on and off (obviously nothing on the other side of the switch with the saw off). Max amperage on startup was 50A and about 5A while running per my clamp on ampmeter, which all seems normal? Are you delta or wye connected? L-L across all phases should be identical, and of course so should L-N. Sounds like you're saying all L-L is kosher, but on one of your lines to Earth, you're getting a completely different voltage?
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Oct 26, 2021 21:28
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:I’m a bit confused about 3 phase. I’m having some problems with my 5hp 3 phase 230v table saw motor, but before I pulled the motor I wanted to do basic amp/voltage tests with it hooked up etc. I get 240v between any two legs of the Line in, but between Line and Ground I get 120v for two of the three legs, and 240v for the third leg. Shouldn’t the third leg be lower? 208? I tested at both the line into the machine and the line out to the motor on the other side of the switch/transformer thing and get the same readings with the saw on and off (obviously nothing on the other side of the switch with the saw off). Max amperage on startup was 50A and about 5A while running per my clamp on ampmeter, which all seems normal? Sounds like a Delta High Leg three phase setup. Googling that should give you a diagram to compare to your readings. E: I am also not familiar with 3 phase so can't offer much beyond the above info. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 21:28
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That is interesting. I am not the most familiar with High Leg Delta but in my experience the high leg is 208v to ground whether the phase to phase is wired at 240v or 208v. Edit: this is unusual BUT I don't believe this would affect your three phase motor. A three phase motor should be using phase to phase voltage. Awaiting someone to correct me on this Rufio fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 21:31
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I don't deal with 240v much but I never heard of the high leg being 240 L-G. Should be 208, I thought? I'd expect the other L-L voltages to read funny if the high leg is that high...
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Oct 26, 2021 21:35
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As with all things 3-phase AC the answer is "of course you can find basically any reading you want" - https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2021/02/high-leg-delta-wiring-240v-208v-120v-panel.html (This is as much as I know as well. It's all magic.)
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Oct 26, 2021 21:52
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movax posted:Are you delta or wye connected? L-L across all phases should be identical, and of course so should L-N. Sounds like you're saying all L-L is kosher, but on one of your lines to Earth, you're getting a completely different voltage? H110Hawk posted:As with all things 3-phase AC the answer is "of course you can find basically any reading you want" - https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2021/02/high-leg-delta-wiring-240v-208v-120v-panel.html (This is as much as I know as well. It's all magic.) The problem I'm having with the motor is that it occasionally shuts of, and won't turn back on again for a minute or two, which everyone seems to think is something overheating and throwing an overload protection thingy somewhere. This has happened on and off probably ever since I got the saw, but its seems to have gotten worse/more common over time. When I finally decided to deal with it today, the transformer in the conduit box was definitely warm to the touch and smelled a little like burned electronics. Whoops! When I pulled the motor it spins a touch rough like maybe a bearing is going out that might have been causing it to overheat? It's in the motor shops capable and not-cheap hands now, and we'll see what they say. I miraculously found a replacement motor for sale if it's not economical to repair. The fact that the voltage is a little higher than normal maybe knocks down one of my theories about the problem - I'd been worried the voltage was low and I was pulling too much amperage. The nameplate amperage is 12A for 230v, but but I thought if I were only getting 208v or something it might be drawing more amps and overheating. It's on a 20A breaker that I don't think I've ever tripped.
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Oct 26, 2021 23:16
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H110Hawk posted:As with all things 3-phase AC the answer is "of course you can find basically any reading you want" - https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2021/02/high-leg-delta-wiring-240v-208v-120v-panel.html (This is as much as I know as well. It's all magic.)  This is wild. I would totally choose something like that for my shop if I had the option. So flexible.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:01
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Bastard leg delta explains everything about Kaiser Schnitzel’s situation except that the bastard leg should not read 240 V to ground. He’s right. It should be approximately 208 V. 240 V to ground is normal with corner-ground delta, on two phases, with the third reading zero. It cannot explain his 120V readings. Wye configuration would explain two phases reading 120 V to ground, but not the third reading 240, and the phases would be 208 V to each other. Bastard leg is the closest, but something odd is going on.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:34
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Motronic posted:
This made me laugh because I was taught to refer to the high leg as the wild leg.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:41
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Motronic posted:
Rufio posted:This made me laugh because I was taught to refer to the high leg as the wild leg. I snorted as well. It's actually labeled on the chart as wild. Kaiser you might consider metering upstream of your sub and seeing where this stuff starts. I assume you understand the basics of using a real meter you didn't buy for $free.99 from Hazard Fraught or similar. (Basically, go borrow someones fluke if you don't have one.) Or bribe an electrician friend, or at least text them pictures of your wild leg. 
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Oct 27, 2021 01:38
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Well mystery solved I guess? Took new readings this AM and get what I should get. L-L is all ~243v, L1-G=122v, L2-G=211v, L3-G=122v. I measured on another machine and got the same. I guess I just misread something yesterday. Or maybe the power company boosts the voltage in the afternoon when there is high demand  ? I’m gonna check again this PM. Thanks for all the help I learned what to call my wiring now!
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Oct 27, 2021 15:14
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Well mystery solved I guess? Took new readings this AM and get what I should get. L-L is all ~243v, L1-G=122v, L2-G=211v, L3-G=122v. I measured on another machine and got the same. I guess I just misread something yesterday. Or maybe the power company boosts the voltage in the afternoon when there is high demand That's just 3 phase delta. Wye you ask? No neutral.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:16
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Well mystery solved I guess? Took new readings this AM and get what I should get. L-L is all ~243v, L1-G=122v, L2-G=211v, L3-G=122v. I measured on another machine and got the same. I guess I just misread something yesterday. Or maybe the power company boosts the voltage in the afternoon when there is high demand OK, that sounds more like what it should be. I'd still keep an eye on it, though... assuming you read the voltages properly, there could be something wacky going on in your system. All that said, IMO I'd tend to believe that it was just misread... It's been a long time since I had to do that math, but I don't think you can mathematically have 240V on the high leg and still get 240 L-L and 120 L-G. All your other readings should have been higher.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:33
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Are you using an averaging multimeter and have enough big motors running that waveforms are potentially distorted from pure sines? That's one way to get mathematically impossible measurements
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Oct 28, 2021 00:15
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Voltage regulation can be really poor particularly with open delta transformers and unbalanced loads. It doesn’t explain your 240 V reading, but do keep an eye on it. If A–B, A–C, and B–C differ by more than four percent from each other, that’s a potential cause of premature motor failure.
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Oct 28, 2021 00:39
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This post is my confession that due to a bend I didn’t anticipate I cut some 14/3 too short by three or four inches and had to undo and rerun the loving thing. The worst part is that I ran plenty the first time and then cut it off before threading it into the junction, thinking “I won’t have to yank as much through the box hole which is awkward to get at! I am very smrt!” 
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Oct 28, 2021 01:25
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Platystemon posted:Voltage regulation can be really poor particularly with open delta transformers and unbalanced loads. A powerful factor indeed in premature motor wear.
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Oct 28, 2021 01:45
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csammis posted:This post is my confession that due to a bend I didn’t anticipate I cut some 14/3 too short by three or four inches and had to undo and rerun the loving thing. 
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Oct 28, 2021 02:04
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Platystemon posted:Voltage regulation can be really poor particularly with open delta transformers and unbalanced loads. I’m thinking now I may have actually been reading Line (into controller box)-Line (out of controller box) when I saw the 240v reading. The lines out to the motor are right above the grounds and it would have been easy enough to think I was on the ground. I checked the line in voltages again this afternoon and they were all still normal. Motor is at the motor shop so I couldn’t test again with it running.
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Oct 28, 2021 02:07
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Hey thread, if I wanted to install a GFCI outlet that's something I can do myself right? You just: Turn off the power Check that you won't electrocute yourself Uncrew the old outlet Disconnect the wires Connect to new outlet Screw in new outlet to wall? Turn on the power (Optional)
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Nov 3, 2021 14:17
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HootTheOwl posted:Hey thread, if I wanted to install a GFCI outlet that's something I can do myself right? That's the basics of it, but also you should cut the old loops off the wire from the old outlet and strip a fresh part of the wire for the new outlet. The GFCI will most likely take the wire straight and not need any curling around screws, so it's kinda easy-mode for outlet installs. Additionally, if this is a daisy chained outlet, you'll need to figure out which set of wires is the line(supply) and which set is the load(outgoing). You can do this by nutting the exposed black wires individually (for safety) once you've disconnected the old outlet, turning power back on, and testing each black wire with your non contact voltage tester to see which ones live. That's the line wire. See which neutral it's paired with and those will be wired to the line screws of the GFCI. The other set will be wired to the load set of screws. Make sure to cut power again before continuing the new outlet installation!
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Nov 3, 2021 15:25
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Our house had an old-school home automation system (ie pre iphone days). We removed the "head unit" panel that was on the wall, and it had an electrical wire pair, which I think was in circuit with our porch lights, as now they won't turn on. Is it safe to just bridge the wires? If not, what would be the correct way to "complete" the circuit so I can check if it fixes the porch lights?
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Nov 3, 2021 21:05
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I'm trying to troubleshoot an underfloor heating system. This is the first time I've tried to run it since I installed it. The thermostat is an OJ Microline UDG-4999. It has a built in GFCI. It powers on but every time it calls for heat it trips its GFCI and reads "ground fault." It's on a dedicated 20 amp circuit run to the breaker. It is the only device on the breaker. The breaker does not trip. The breaker seems to be in good working order. The wires from the breaker read 120v on the multimeter. The breaker is a normal breaker, not a GFCI or AFCI. The heating mats were tested during installation and I got resistance readings consistent with the manufacturers instructions. They are now buried under a tile installation and several hundred pounds of self leveling concrete, so they aren't coming out. The thermostat looks like it's working, and I believe I have wired it correctly. The unit powers on, lights up, and the display runs.   The wires were connected in the proper positions- neutral in to spot 3, hot in to spot 2. The power in wires seem to check out. 120v difference between hot and neutral, 120v difference between hot and ground, 0v between neutral and ground. Infinite resistance between hot and neutral, infinite resistance between hot and ground. 0.2 ohm resistance between neutral and ground. The hot and neutral wires out to the heating mat seem to check out. 0v from hot out to neutral out. 0v from hot out to ground. 0v from neutral out to ground. 23 ohm resistance between hot and neutral. Infinite resistance between hot out and ground. Infinite resistance between neutral out and ground. The user manual, here: https://www.warmlyyours.com/en-US/publications/OJ-NHANCE-UDG-4999-USER-MANUAL-A.pdf Just says "If during normal operation the GFCI trips without the TEST button being pressed, there could be a ground fault! To check whether it is a ground fault or nuisance tripping, press Standby/Reset. If this causes the red light to go off and stay off, it was nuisance tripping and the system is operating correctly. If this does not occur, there is a ground fault! Contact your electrical installer." But I am my electrical installer, so that's where that ends. What's the next troubleshooting step?
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Nov 4, 2021 02:35
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Sous Videodrome posted:I'm trying to troubleshoot an underfloor heating system. This is the first time I've tried to run it since I installed it. Did it work before you put thousands of pounds of stuff on it? Because I have bad news...
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Nov 4, 2021 03:51
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Congratulations. Your floor is now rich copper ore.
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Nov 4, 2021 03:54
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I suppose you maybe could test the thermostat gfci by wiring up an incandescent lightbulb load instead...
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Nov 4, 2021 04:48
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Thank you all for your expertise and candor, untainted by tact or sensitivity! That's what I come here for. I'm going to swap to a different breaker. I'll try another unit of the same thermostat. And assuming neither of those work, my last diagnostic attempt will be to get into the junction box where the wires from the 3 heat mats are joined to the power out wires. I hope that it's just one of the mats that's faulty and not all 3. If that's the case then I should be able to get it working with 2 of the mats. If not, ah well. This was just a 'nice to have,' when I did the tiles. I'm not relying on it to heat the room.
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Nov 4, 2021 17:59
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I have the joists open above my kitchen right now so I want to run some wire for can lights to replace the lovely track lighting. You guys think the below layout looks alright? 
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Nov 4, 2021 18:59
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So a side effect of replacing the 20 year old heat pump is that the new unit only wants a 35 amp breaker instead of the 50 amp breaker currently installed in my panel. However, this got me thinking about something else that's been in the back of my mind on this house. The load center is a Cutler Hamer labeled for BJ, BJH, BR, BRH, BRSN, BRWH, GFCB, GFEP, and GFCBH breakers. Yet the bulk of the breakers in it, especially those that likely haven't been touched since the place was built, are GE THQL breakers. There are also a couple of Siemens QP breakers but those were obviously done for additions over the years. I cannot find any source anywhere that says a THQL is fully approved / compatible option here, but at the same time this is a 20 year old installation that clearly passed at least one inspection at that time. Is this a "not broke, don't fix it" scenario, or should I go ahead and put in a big order of actual Eaton BR breakers to replace them?
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Nov 4, 2021 20:06
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Any idea what this wire is for? It looks and feels old. The plastic is very stiff and the copper wire feels almost like speaker wire. There's currently no power running to it. It is sticking out of a small hole in the retro-1970s wood paneling in what was once either a basement bedroom or maybe an office.  
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Nov 8, 2021 17:46
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just another posted:Any idea what this wire is for? Looks like old 300 ohm TV antenna wire.
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Nov 8, 2021 17:55
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just another posted:Any idea what this wire is for? That's definitely a TV antenna wire.
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Nov 8, 2021 18:00
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Yup, the Zenith logo on the jacket seals it.
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Nov 8, 2021 18:03
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Okiedokie. Am I going to somehow burn my house down if I snip it and push it back into the wall?
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Nov 8, 2021 18:39
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