Dwarf Fortress: The child punches the cave spider in the thorax, bruising the brain!

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Corsec: Apr 17, 2007

I'm planning out some dodge-me traps, which will place weapon traps on a 1-tile bridge and force non-trapavoid invaders to fall off into magma. I'm preferring this because it should automate as much of the cleanup as possible by destroying corpses and unusable clothes, leaving only steel/iron available for me to pickup occasionally. I was also planning on using max quality mechanisms and a single max quality wooden training weapon in each trap.

I've never used this type of defense before so I was wondering if anyone had prior experience. I particularly need to know how many weapon traps I need to place in the way of invaders to force most invasion parties to take enough casualties to retreat.

I'm also wondering whether it would be more effective to use upright spear traps linked to a 300-tick repeater rather than weapon traps. Being linked to a repeater means that invaders won't dodge as frequently per trap they pass over but it will be effective against trapavoid enemies.

As a further complication I have used the Masterwork mod UI to increase all combat skills of invaders from 6-8 levels, so they should all be talented or expert dodgers at least. I'm not sure if this will increase the dodge rate against traps or not. Since the invaders will have talented/expert shield skills I expect they will make more use of blocking against traps, which should decrease their need to dodge.

Also, when enemies fall will they only ever have vertical motion or can they sometimes move sideways during a fall? This is relevant because I don't want invaders to 'skip' ahead by falling down onto a lower z-level of the dodge-me trap.

# ? Oct 24, 2021 22:38

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# ? May 26, 2024 10:13

Pickled Tink: Apr 28, 2012; Have you heard about First Dog? It's a very good comic I just love.

Also, wear your bike helmets kids. I copped several blows to the head but my helmet left me totally unscathed.

Finally you should check out First Dog as it's a good comic I like it very much.; Fun Shoe

Weapon traps are good, but you should just cut off the bridge entire and stick a retractable drawbridge over it (Preferably 10 tiles long and 1 wide, so you can make them cross over the same pit multiple times across multiple bridges), link it to a lever in your dining room, and then set that lever to be pulled on repeat when a siege shows up.

With a ten tile long bridge, it is vanishingly unlikely even the fastest goblin will be able to clear the end of the bridge before it retracts out from under them and sends them to their splattery doom. With the zig zag repeated crossing method I have only had to pull the lever four times to dispose of a siege force entirely, since I just wait until the front goblins reach the final bridge before pulling the lever and drop all 80 of the buggers down the hole at once. If any goblin does get past the last bridge, the fact the rest of the siege force fell down the hole and died triggers their retreat code and they then walk right back onto the bridges and you send them down to join their buddies.

I'd have two entrances. One for caravans that would slam shut the moment a siege would show up (doubled floodgates are good for this, since building destroyers don't think they can path through them and thus ignore them), and the other leading to the chasm of doom.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 01:35

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

If you aren't training a military and having your hugely muscular dwarves slam into repeatedly into the goblins and watching the limbs fly I don't know if you are playing the game correctly.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 01:37

palindrome: Feb 3, 2020

Adenoid Dan posted:

Ok I'm trying to start playing this game. It looks right up my alley.

Is the stuff from the beginning and middle of this thread still accurate or have things changed substantially in a way that would make skimming it counterproductive?

I'm not sure how to advise you, but there are several good resources for new players looking to enjoy dwarf fortress. Things are generally the same, from a standpoint of basic digging > farming/brewing > advanced economy. There are various bugs in the current version that make it difficult to make a 20 year fort, but if you're totally new I say Strike the Earth and start getting some experience. I don't think the basics will change even with the future steam release so there's no reason to skip enjoyment of DF in the meantime.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 01:42

Corsec: Apr 17, 2007

Pickled Tink posted:

Weapon traps are good, but you should just cut off the bridge entire and stick a retractable drawbridge over it (Preferably 10 tiles long and 1 wide, so you can make them cross over the same pit multiple times across multiple bridges), link it to a lever in your dining room, and then set that lever to be pulled on repeat when a siege shows up.

...

I'd have two entrances. One for caravans that would slam shut the moment a siege would show up (doubled floodgates are good for this, since building destroyers don't think they can path through them and thus ignore them), and the other leading to the chasm of doom.

I'm running Masterwork mod and since I want a challenge I currently have 13 hostile races that are all going to start sieging me very soon. They are a combination of webbers, trapavoids, flyers, ambushers and megabeasts. The biggest race is frost giants that are megabeast size, and are both trapavoid and too big for plates/bridges. Consequently I've been trying to design a defense strategy that can cover each and every one of these traits. I've concluded that no single defense strategy can work against everyone, so I'm planning on a sequential system that will funnel enemies through several different trap types. If one component of the defense can't kill something then another component should. This also necessitates a very large trap complex to accomodate the full design. I'd also like to minimize the use of cage traps to make this extra challenging- cages are only used in combo with tamed webbers.

The hardest siege to plan for is a combo of megebeasts-sized giants for their bridge-breaking abilities plus the giant fiend spiders which are trapavoid, webbers and ambushers.

I considered using retracting bridges over magma, it's a good idea but they will deconstruct under several of the supersized custom enemy races in my modlist and will force me to wait out the siege before I can rebuild the bridges. I also have a few flying race enemies that falls will be ineffective against. I could try using the bridges selectively against only some races but that will be a risk if I don't notice a large enemy on the bridges. It is also reliant on the dwarves being prompt with lever commands and my tests have found them to be completely unreliable (temples and inns being the main cause). I'd also prefer a repeater over a lever since I can make sure it is switched on before allowing enemies into the trap complex.

I decided that enemies would move through the following sequence of traps in my trap complex-
1). Dodge-me traps over magma to kill the weaker enemies as efficiently as possible with minimal cleanup. Just drain magma and pickup the steel. Won't work against trapavoid/flyer which is about half of my enemy races.
2). Upright spear traps linked to repeater, I currently have 1800 spikes ready to go, 10 spikes per trap. Should be somewhat effective *if active* but in order to make enough spikes I had to farm obsidian which is not an ideal material and will need several hits to kill large enemies. Potentially some creatures will get through, I'm not sure how effective it will be. I won't see ambushers in time to switch on the repeater so they will be immune unless close to visible enemies.
3). Cage traps with tamed spiders, but won't work against the giant spider fiend race and the occasional FB. Will also fail against large groups.
4). A succession of rooms with all the caged and untamable enemies I captured from the caverns. I will use seperate rooms for creatures that are hostile to each other (undead will fight wildlife).
5). My last resort is to open the drawbridge to hell and let the clowns out to have a party inside my trap complex. I will be sure to close off the inner fortress before I do this. Should kill everything but they will stick around for a while afterwards. Has limited uses.

The dodge-me traps were the component I'm least sure how to use.

I didn't know about the doubles floodgates, that is very useful info, thanks.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 02:56

Punkinhead: Apr 2, 2015

Telsa Cola posted:

If you aren't training a military and having your hugely muscular dwarves slam into repeatedly into the goblins and watching the limbs fly I don't know if you are playing the game correctly.

40d was the best version of the game. All you needed was 10 or 20 legendary wrestler dwarves. Even full on buck rear end naked they would rip and tear through hordes of goblins and just laugh at the field of gore they left behind.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 02:58

Scarodactyl: Oct 22, 2015

joke's on you; goblins actually love being body slammed by one dozen perfect dwarven wrestlers.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 03:10

Pickled Tink: Apr 28, 2012; Have you heard about First Dog? It's a very good comic I just love.

Also, wear your bike helmets kids. I copped several blows to the head but my helmet left me totally unscathed.

Finally you should check out First Dog as it's a good comic I like it very much.; Fun Shoe

Corsec, retracting bridges shouldn't deconstruct unless destroyed by a building destroyer. Drawbridges that are used for crushing enemies will deconstruct if lowered onto something too big, I've never encountered anything of the like happening with retractables. Mind you, I have never played masterwork.

For avoiding building destroyers, all that matters is that the tiles behind the destroyable object are also impassable. That is all that it has historically checked for when doing building destroyer pathing. Thus the use of double locked doors, or doubled floodgates (Floodgates for the caravan path since they require a gap 3 tiles wide and you can't build a door without an adjacent wall). They'll still be destroyed if something with that tag randomly wanders into them, which is why I put them in their own corridor.

Ambushers will be spotted by a chained/tied up kitten or puppy. These will die, but they are a self replicating resource and you can just reuse the rope/chain they were tied up with. Simply sticking one near the entrance to your trap complex will bring them out of stealth, or at least some of them, and let you know they are there.

It is important to note that being able to fly does not make one immune to drowning. A nice underground room into which you can pump water or lava will be an effective trap, especially if they are operated remotely via levers and don't provide a path into your fortress that a building destroyer can detect and follow.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 03:55

7c Nickel: Apr 27, 2008

Raising bridges also can't lift certain enemies. I had one fort that was protected by like 10 paired drawbridges that snapped up to launch sieges into the air.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 06:24

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

Scarodactyl posted:

joke's on you; goblins actually love being body slammed by one dozen perfect dwarven wrestlers.

This is a fine goblin skin cask. It is filled with victory wine.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 07:50

Adenoid Dan: Mar 8, 2012; The Hobo Serenader; Lipstick Apathy

palindrome posted:

I'm not sure how to advise you, but there are several good resources for new players looking to enjoy dwarf fortress. Things are generally the same, from a standpoint of basic digging > farming/brewing > advanced economy. There are various bugs in the current version that make it difficult to make a 20 year fort, but if you're totally new I say Strike the Earth and start getting some experience. I don't think the basics will change even with the future steam release so there's no reason to skip enjoyment of DF in the meantime.

Thanks! I've just been mucking around a bit and watching LPs to get a feel for how things are done.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 11:14

Rodney The Yam II: Mar 3, 2007

I sincerely wish you a joyous flood and or starvation!

# ? Oct 25, 2021 11:15

Corsec: Apr 17, 2007

Pickled Tink posted:

Corsec, retracting bridges shouldn't deconstruct unless destroyed by a building destroyer. Drawbridges that are used for crushing enemies will deconstruct if lowered onto something too big, I've never encountered anything of the like happening with retractables. Mind you, I have never played masterwork.

...oh. Do retracting bridges then simply fail to work with very large creatures on top?

I think maybe I misread the wiki? It said this-

quote:

Bridges will not operate if any one creature of size 1,200,000 or larger is on them....a bridge will still retract if a hundred goblins are standing on it, but a single rutherer accompanying those goblins will prevent the bridge from operating. ...Attempting to "unretract" a bridge while such a creature is in any of the bridge tiles will similarly cause the bridge to deconstruct.

I interpreted this to mean that operating a retractable bridge with a 1.2+M weight on top would deconstruct it. Although I've never tested it in a game. I guess I'd better test it, although getting a 1.2+M weight to stand still on top will be an inconvenience, to say the least.

Pickled Tink posted:

Ambushers will be spotted by a chained/tied up kitten or puppy. These will die, but they are a self replicating resource and you can just reuse the rope/chain they were tied up with. Simply sticking one near the entrance to your trap complex will bring them out of stealth, or at least some of them, and let you know they are there.

I capture a lot of cavern creatures with extensive cage corridors, most of them are untameable. Will this trick still work with wildlife and undead creatures that are hostile to my fortress? Hostile creatures on restraints will no longer be aggressive to dwarves, but I'm not sure if they will draw aggro from invaders. I'd prefer to avoid the FPS hit of breeding pets but I have a lot of untameable creatures that have no use for except fighting invaders.

EDIT: Hmm, I can still open bridges above an enemy no matter their size/weight. And if I drop magma on top of them that should kill anything, should also catch flyers. And then once the invaders are dead I can open another set of retractable bridges below the corpses to drain the magma. No need to wait for magma to evaporate before reusing the trap. Grates to filter out the iron/steel when the magma drains into caverns. Forunately Masterwork mod allows buildings to create magma flow independently of the magma sea.

Corsec fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Oct 25, 2021

# ? Oct 25, 2021 18:32

Kyte: Nov 19, 2013; Never quacked for this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3JQH_IXVwQ

Military!

# ? Nov 4, 2021 18:28

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 72 days!

its trying to communicate

# ? Nov 7, 2021 05:22

Khanstant: Apr 5, 2007

Kyte posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3JQH_IXVwQ

Military!

drat, well, this video kind of explains why I never bothered or got far with the military screen before, but also, it kind of seems like something I'll avoid using as much as possible even in the updated version. New menus gonna have their own leanring curve it seems.

# ? Nov 7, 2021 05:44

Muscle Tracer: Feb 23, 2007; Medals only weigh one down.

I haven't played this game in years and years, but I still have the key sequences for common stuff like wall building seared into my brain

# ? Nov 7, 2021 12:34

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

I know I'm a broken record but because you are a basically omnipotent observer theres no need for patrols, and their one legitimate function (detecting stealthed units) can be much much much more easily performed by a pastured or chained up animal.

# ? Nov 7, 2021 18:03

Grevlek: Jan 11, 2004

Telsa Cola posted:

I know I'm a broken record but because you are a basically omnipotent observer theres no need for patrols, and their one legitimate function (detecting stealthed units) can be much much much more easily performed by a pastured or chained up animal.

Idk I think routes are good if you are dedicated to existing in the cavern layers.

# ? Nov 7, 2021 21:39

The Cheshire Cat: Jun 10, 2008; Fun Shoe

I've always felt like a lot of the really fine detail military stuff really just boils down to roleplaying. You don't really have to use most of it, but it's there just for the people who really want to play with it.

# ? Nov 7, 2021 21:41

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Grevlek posted:

Idk I think routes are good if you are dedicated to existing in the cavern layers.

Few scary things in the caverns layers have trap avoid, it's fairly easy to just wall of the sections you consistently use, you could just station war animals around. You could also just keep an emergency response squad barracks in the lower levels.

And yeah, its pretty much only a role play function.

# ? Nov 7, 2021 22:56

7c Nickel: Apr 27, 2008

I find, or found rather, that it helps archers a good bit. They are often content to chill behind some LOS breaking pillar or whatever when there's things to be shooting. Having them patrol back and forth behind their fortifications keeps that from happening too much.

# ? Nov 8, 2021 00:07

Grevlek: Jan 11, 2004

Telsa Cola posted:

Few scary things in the caverns layers have trap avoid, it's fairly easy to just wall of the sections you consistently use, you could just station war animals around. You could also just keep an emergency response squad barracks in the lower levels.

And yeah, its pretty much only a role play function.

Also mostly for role playing purposes, but I don't like walling up the cavern levels. I will do a protected column for access to the rest of the fortress, but I like the idea of my dwarves being able to explore the caverns

# ? Nov 8, 2021 00:15

tracecomplete: Feb 26, 2017

Grevlek posted:

Also mostly for role playing purposes, but I don't like walling up the cavern levels. I will do a protected column for access to the rest of the fortress, but I like the idea of my dwarves being able to explore the caverns

And the caverns can explore your dwarves' insides too

# ? Nov 11, 2021 21:53

Rip_Van_Winkle: Jul 21, 2011; "When life gives you ghosts, you make ghost-robots"

I think this is a philosophy we can all aspire to.

tracecomplete posted:

And the caverns can explore your dwarves' insides too

if you're not getting something's guts everywhere is it even a cavern

# ? Nov 19, 2021 06:00

Demiurge4: Aug 10, 2011

Armed dwarves patrol the caves but otherwise yeah. The cave farms aren't walled up and the people frolic freely among the antmen.

# ? Nov 19, 2021 09:00

Grevlek: Jan 11, 2004

tracecomplete posted:

And the caverns can explore your dwarves' insides too

always more dwarves coming from somewhere

# ? Nov 20, 2021 06:04

Danny Glands: Jan 26, 2013; Possible thermal failure (CPU on fire?)

I got a world generated for a new bloodline LP. Just gotta throw a form for dorfing together, and probably start a discord.

# ? Dec 5, 2021 21:59

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Cool

# ? Dec 6, 2021 03:46

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

Danny Glands posted:

I got a world generated for a new bloodline LP. Just gotta throw a form for dorfing together, and probably start a discord.

If you'd like we can reuse the background discord from the last one.

# ? Dec 7, 2021 23:31

Danny Glands: Jan 26, 2013; Possible thermal failure (CPU on fire?)

M_Gargantua posted:

If you'd like we can reuse the background discord from the last one.

Ah yeah, that would be a good reuse.

Dorfing form up soon!

# ? Dec 10, 2021 10:24

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

https://discord.gg/MPNfxExM

This is the discord from the last round of forting.

# ? Dec 10, 2021 12:36

Danny Glands: Jan 26, 2013; Possible thermal failure (CPU on fire?)

Here's the dorfing form: https://forms.gle/X7AR7nbycEuSTPfV8

And I'll get the first posts up sometime next week

# ? Dec 11, 2021 02:58

Hihohe: Oct 4, 2008; Fuck you and the sun you live under

Danny Glands posted:

Here's the dorfing form: https://forms.gle/X7AR7nbycEuSTPfV8

And I'll get the first posts up sometime next week

Im in as engraver i hope that one day i can line the halls in pictures of cheese or purring maggots.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 19:36

Mendrian: Jan 6, 2013

The steam release is never coming is it.

I'm not mad. It's a massive under taking. But I think it's interesting that I'm now waiting on two versions of this game to finish development.

# ? Dec 11, 2021 21:25