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knox_harrington posted:I've been posting in the corp thread about being approached by a previous boss about switching to her company. I work for a US big pharma co and would move to a director level position at another big pharma. 1. The general rule would be that the signing bonus covers your prorated bonus for the time you worked. This would also apply for RSUs if the time between vests is long enough to make a difference, e.g. vests are once a year and you've worked 6 months. The RSUs and bonus you're missing in the future should be covered by your new total compensation. Probably should note that the vesting delayed due to the cliff is counted as if it wasn't cliffed e.g. in the first year. Of course you can always ask for a larger signing bonus and it's the easiest thing to get as it's a one time payment. 2. It will probably be easier for the company to compare.to CA compensation, but that may screw you over so be careful. 3. I would start by treating all these benefits as compensation until you know more about the new benefits. It seems idiotic for the company to not reveal these in negotiation if they're substantial. 4. My experience is that bonus is tied to title and is non negotiable. RSU are always negotiable though I should note I don't work in pharma. In tech at least RSUs are the easiest of the three factors to negotiate, bonus as mentioned is fixed and it's easier than salary. asur fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Nov 10, 2021 |
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Nov 10, 2021 18:35
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Starting negotiation for an offer I'm lukewarm about unless they budge on salary, PTO (vacation and sick time are lumped into the same pool), and start date. Seems the thread's general advice is put the most focus on the salary right away, then how would I open the discussion on the PTO and start date? The offer listed out the PTO accrual based on tenure, which ends up with fewer days off total compared to my current job (tbh it is still lower while at the new job's max PTO accrual). And honestly I really need time to recharge and take a break - really would prefer to start in Jan 2022
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Nov 10, 2021 20:31
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air- posted:Starting negotiation for an offer I'm lukewarm about unless they budge on salary, PTO (vacation and sick time are lumped into the same pool), and start date. Typically, start-date is no problem at all. So I'd leave that to the end. Like, after I've verbally gotten the comp that I want, I'd say "I'd also like to make the start date X instead of Y" and the company has always just said "of course". (If they don't want to move the start date, you could ask for a hiring bonus if that would make you feel better, because there must be some critical deadline that they need you for.) I think what you need is to decide what would be an offer that you'd be happy to accept. If it's much higher than their initial offer, I'd just ask for what you want and be firm "I'd be really excited to join you. Here's what I'd need to make it happen." If it's only a little higher, I'd ask for even more and then come down to what you actually want.
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Nov 10, 2021 20:51
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Think about starting (on paper) at the very end of December instead of in Jan. There could be some benefits that start or accrue after complete years of service you may be delaying by almost a year in doing so. This might be super specific to me, but PTO accrual and our pension plan* are based off years of service on Jan 1. I started Jan 4th at my current company. I won't get my first pension contribution until 2 years minus 4 days with the company, and I'll have to wait to get the extra week of PTO at year 10 until I've been there almost 11 years. *it's not a huge deal as it's not really a real pension, it's just 3% salary put into a "pension" like fund you can access when you turn 65, it's not a factor at all in my retirement calculations. Might just be my personal situation, but if I would have known, I would have tried to start at the end of Dec instead of Jan 4th this year.
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Nov 10, 2021 21:04
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Mniot posted:I think what you need is to decide what would be an offer that you'd be happy to accept. If it's much higher than their initial offer, I'd just ask for what you want and be firm "I'd be really excited to join you. Here's what I'd need to make it happen." If it's only a little higher, I'd ask for even more and then come down to what you actually want. Appreciate that tip! Initial base salary offered was 120k and I'm pushing for 20-25k higher base salary. Gonna take the firm approach, then tackle PTO/start date next. skipdogg posted:Think about starting (on paper) at the very end of December instead of in Jan. There could be some benefits that start or accrue after complete years of service you may be delaying by almost a year in doing so. You know that's a very good point - the offer said new employees are eligible for insurance benefits 1st of the month following hiring date, so yup would be ok starting at the end of Dec!
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Nov 10, 2021 21:50
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Here's what I plan to send to my HR contact, would like to get feedback:quote:Thank you for offering the position of Cloud Engineer at xyz corp! I really appreciate your hard work through the hiring process. e: I should add, the comparison point refers to how I'm also in multiple final round interviews for similar positions which all have higher base salary than this offer - unfortunately not quite yet at the point of having competing offers air- fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 14:51
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I don't think you need to justify why you want more, though I don't mind at all professionally bringing up their lovely benefits. Given where you are, I'd consider saying something like "I am currently in negotiation with other companies, but given the fact that I think this position is a great fit, a salary of y (which should be like 15% higher than what you'd actually take) would be an immediate acceptance." You can make it sound prettier.
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Nov 11, 2021 15:40
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air- posted:Here's what I plan to send to my HR contact, would like to get feedback: I'd personally be a bit more subtle and say something like "Given my focus on total compensation, I'd need a base salary of $y to make this offer truly competitive with the other opportunities I'm considering." In my mind it's a better way of saying their benefits suck. I'd also drop the bit about "I recall the salary being flexible". There's nothing wrong with what you wrote, though. It's more personal style, I guess. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 16:19
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Thanks for those comments - will try this and I like that it's way more direct: another edit: took out "immediately" cuz after salary is set, I'm pushing for more PTO accrual (to match where I currently work) and a later start date quote:Given my focus on total compensation, I need a base salary of y to make this offer truly competitive with the other opportunities I'm considering. air- fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 16:20
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Agreed that that is likely stronger. Something like “more competitive with the market” opens the door to them shooting back “oh don’t worry we do lots of research, this is already a very competitive offer!” (e.g. they can claim they know the market better than you and you can’t prove them wrong about that).
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Nov 11, 2021 17:16
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fourwood posted:Agreed that that is likely stronger. Something like “more competitive with the market” opens the door to them shooting back “oh don’t worry we do lots of research, this is already a very competitive offer!” (e.g. they can claim they know the market better than you and you can’t prove them wrong about that).
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Nov 11, 2021 19:35
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Also "more competitive with the market" is the polite way of saying "compete with my other offers you cheap loving fools" If they don't meet the market you take the market rate from someone else.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:17
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There's also the implied disconnect between "the market for the job you want done" and "the market for my skills". IE: telling them they're trying to hire idiots.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:30
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Dik Hz posted:If the company is going to engage in those tactics, then there's nothing really you can do except not work for them. Bad companies will always find ways to justify their low pay. How you word things is unlikely to impact things.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:41
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Offer was rescinded in response to my counter offer 
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Nov 11, 2021 20:44
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air- posted:Offer was rescinded in response to my counter offer Dodged a bullet there.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:52
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fourwood posted:This feels… wrong? Or at least way out of the spirit of this thread? Everyone ITT talks about avoiding justifying your asks, which would fly in the face of “how you word things is unlikely to impact things”. There's a huge power differential, which matters. The company knows how much they pay historically, what their budget is, and how much they've looking to pay for a certain role. When a company argues back about what "competitive with the market" actually means, they're being assholes. And they're being unprofessional. If the candidate's ask really is unreasonable, or out of line with the market, the professional response is something along the lines of "Good luck with that". Arguing with an applicant that they should take your offer because they are wrong is kinda gauche. Keep in mind, if you as an applicant are the one out of touch with the market, you're not going to have a good time using the line "competitive with the market" when negotiating. The fundamental rule of knowing your worth before negotiating is always very important. The way you as an applicant word things is important because you want to communicate that you're professional, you know how the game is played, and gently caress you-pay me. If a company argues back, they're showing their unprofessionalism and, as such, it's probably pointless to engage with them. Unless you are that desperate.
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Nov 11, 2021 20:55
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air- posted:Offer was rescinded in response to my counter offer
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Nov 11, 2021 20:56
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air- posted:Offer was rescinded in response to my counter offer You dodged SO MANY BULLETS today 
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Nov 11, 2021 21:07
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Matrix Resurrection 2021: Neo finds out he is interviewing for the Sentinels after his offer was rescinded due requesting a competitive salary.
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Nov 11, 2021 21:19
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Dik Hz posted:The context around what I said matters. What I meant was: [When dealing with assholes] how you word things is unlike to impact things. The only company that's been belligerent with me about comp, I happened to go into comp talk before the on site. After back pedalling like an idiot, I got an interview scheduled. The company shut down a week and a half later, three days before my on-site was scheduled. One of my greatest regrets is scheduling another on-site (that I bombed) instead of taking those plane tickets and getting a nice dinner.
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Nov 11, 2021 22:23
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air- posted:Offer was rescinded in response to my counter offer Congratulations (assuming you currently have a job). What industry and role? Big or small org? This strikes me as a 'family business' type move, I wonder if any big orgs have rescinded for reasonable counter offers recently.
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Nov 11, 2021 23:00
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Inner Light posted:Congratulations (assuming you currently have a job). What industry and role? Big or small org? This strikes me as a 'family business' type move, I wonder if any big orgs have rescinded for reasonable counter offers recently. Small org, finance/accounting software (not quite fintech). The range sounded decent until I saw the full offer and benefits package which made the whole thing kinda ehhh - no equity, employer doesn't cover 100% of insurance premiums, and their yearly pto accrual ends up with fewer days off per year vs where I currently work My counter was for 25% more than the initial offer and the hr person told me that initial offer was already on the top end of their target range. Whatever, like I said it's not that great of an offer when looking at the whole package. The other orgs where I'm interviewing are mature tech companies at later stage equity or AWS consulting partners, these all have stronger packages all around: higher base salary and benefits like RSU, fully paid insurance premiums, reimbursement for home office gear and utilities/internet/phone e: a friend sent me this AAM comment thread and it's exactly how I perceived the situation: https://www.askamanager.org/2021/04/is-a-salary-request-40-over-the-max-enough-to-rescind-an-offer.html#comment-3345599 air- fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 11, 2021 |
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Nov 11, 2021 23:08
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Inner Light posted:Congratulations (assuming you currently have a job). Even if you don't, still, congratulations.
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Nov 11, 2021 23:23
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Speaking of knowing what competitive market rates are, what's everyone's source-du-jour on that info? Glassdoor is....not awesome. Levels.fyi is pretty FAANG-and-adjacent specific. Because whatever software (CompAnalyst or whatever) that my place uses....good lord is it terrible.
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Nov 12, 2021 01:03
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I found that levels.fyi was pretty good even for non-fang, just select the geographic area for the company and you can get an idea. Also if you start doing interviews and get some offers that can give some clues to what you're worth. Also if you find a good 'crooter you can probably ask them.
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Nov 12, 2021 01:30
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asur posted:1. The general rule would be that the signing bonus covers your prorated bonus for the time you worked. This would also apply for RSUs if the time between vests is long enough to make a difference, e.g. vests are once a year and you've worked 6 months. The RSUs and bonus you're missing in the future should be covered by your new total compensation. Probably should note that the vesting delayed due to the cliff is counted as if it wasn't cliffed e.g. in the first year. Of course you can always ask for a larger signing bonus and it's the easiest thing to get as it's a one time payment. Thanks all, particularly for the above. Turns out I am getting promoted at my current place so the new job would now be a latéral move. Not necessarily a bad idea and I think I would be able to negotiate more $ moving than staying. Changing company is also fairly appealing. I have second round interviews today. I think the information that I'm being promoted is potentially influential on how I'm viewed. I'm thinking I could email a note to the hiring manager (who is also an ex-boss of mine) saying I'm still very interested blah blah and would like my new position to be taken into account. Is that a reasonable plan? Additionally, I imagine I will be negotiating compensation with the new company shortly. For my previous promotion at the current company the salary increase was present as a not-very-exciting fait accompli. I understand I can't reveal I'm interviewing elsewhere bc I'll be labeled a flight risk. Any advice on negotiating this?
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Nov 12, 2021 12:50
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You can treat your promotion similar to having another offer on hand.
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Nov 12, 2021 15:44
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air- posted:
The problem with that story is generally youre pushed to give or accept a number without knowing poo poo. Its like being asked to buy a car but other than the model you dont know basic stuff like features, color, engine size, even whether its new or used. Although that persons response of “i thought you would like me and pay me more” sucks tbh. Thats why most people say dont give anything away if possible. Personally ive struggled with it. Ive been refusing to ive a number and dont get past first interviews. For now thats okay because i like my current job and get healthy raises - just got 30k last week actually, but if i was really looking i feel like id have to give something, and would just make it high. Similar to if you said “ what would you pay for car x site unseen” id carve a healthy chunk off what i would pay with real info. Edit: i can give a story of where naming a number did work. Just hired someone who up front said they wanted 20k more than our high range “which was already 20k more than hr gave me to start”, but we liked her and she got it. If she hadnt given the big number up front our offer would have been lower and getting to her # after the fact would have been hard. Probably would have involved trading base for bonus, but instead she got all base just by asking. Keystoned fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 16:22
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I think people get emotional about it too. There's nothing wrong with "Oh, your offer is X and I need X+25% and we just can't meet." That seems like a perfectly normal, if disappointing, outcome. But I think people get wrapped up in "My Salary is my worth/What I can offer is my value" and get emotional on both sides, in fact I think employers are probably worse. "Oh you won't take my offer? gently caress you then" seems so childish. There's nothing wrong with an employer saying "Sorry, this is the offer" in response to a counter (but I also won't cry for them if they can't find people) but I don't understand why you would pull an offer instead of just saying "Sorry, I hope this works but if it doesn't we'll move on."
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Nov 12, 2021 18:17
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Keystoned posted:Edit: i can give a story of where naming a number did work. Just hired someone who up front said they wanted 20k more than our high range “which was already 20k more than hr gave me to start”, but we liked her and she got it. If she hadnt given the big number up front our offer would have been lower and getting to her # after the fact would have been hard. Probably would have involved trading base for bonus, but instead she got all base just by asking.
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Nov 12, 2021 18:24
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The only rational explanation for pulling an offer if the candidate tries to negotiate is either "the candidate is so wildly out of touch with reality that we're not sure we want him in this reality-touching role now" (if market rate is $90K and you offer $85K and the candidate counters with $150K) or, more commonly, "our business model is built upon underpaying our entire staff so we don't want anyone here who is aware we underpay our staff and pushes back against it, and even if we do hire this person at our desired salary she'll leave within a year guaranteed". Which is shortsighted, to put it mildly, but starting from a certain set of assumptions is at least rational. And of course sometimes it's the whole emotional power trip element of "gently caress you, take the crumbs I offer and genuflect before my generosity or GTFO" but at a sizable business I think that's less common since HR is more involved. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 18:27
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An important thing to internalize is that if a company refuses to budge on their offer that you find insultingly low, you need to see this as a good thing. It's almost guaranteed that it actually is a job that you wouldn't enjoy and would be beneath you. Early in my career I just jumped at the first offer I got even though I knew I could have made more and it always turned out to be a crap job. When I held strong and waited until I got an offer that aligned with what I perceived as being my market rate, I wound up with a job that actually aligned with what I've been wanting to do and ended up much happier. Don't take it personally if a company underbids you, they're signalling that the job isn't actually for you
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Nov 12, 2021 18:46
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Eric the Mauve posted:The only rational explanation for pulling an offer if the candidate tries to negotiate is either "the candidate is so wildly out of touch with reality that we're not sure we want him in this reality-touching role now" (if market rate is $90K and you offer $85K and the candidate counters with $150K) or, more commonly, "our business model is built upon underpaying our entire staff so we don't want anyone here who is aware we underpay our staff and pushes back against it, and even if we do hire this person at our desired salary she'll leave within a year guaranteed". Which is shortsighted, to put it mildly, but starting from a certain set of assumptions is at least rational. I had the opposite experience recently, the small company that gave me an offer bent over backwards to win me over, the big one pulled theirs as soon as I said I was going to wait until I talked to my current CTO about a counter before I made my decision.
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Nov 12, 2021 19:15
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knox_harrington posted:Thanks all, particularly for the above. Maybe someone else has a better solution, but the only method I know is to make it clear that compensation matters to you. This can run the gamut from just talking to your boss about it, to talking clear expectations, to alluding to looking else, to bringing an offer for a potential counter. Obviously the further along that path the higher the likelihood you're labeled a flight risk, but even the earlier steps can do that if the company knows you can find better compensation elsewhere. In my experience, once you've been given the promo comp changes it's too late to negotiate unless you're willing to be very explicit that you're leaving or have a offer in hand.
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Nov 12, 2021 19:21
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I may have been unclear--I didn't mean to say big companies are less likely to pull offers. Just that they're less likely to pull an offer purely for egotistical reasons, more likely to do it because underpaying everyone is part of their business model and they only want employees who either don't know they're underpaid or are too timid and complacent to do anything about it.
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Nov 12, 2021 19:22
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Whoops double post
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Nov 12, 2021 20:19
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Eric the Mauve posted:"the candidate is so wildly out of touch with reality that we're not sure we want him in this reality-touching role now" (if market rate is $90K and you offer $85K and the candidate counters with $150K) Even this seems very weird unless knowing market rates is a core part of the job. Like, is it really important that your office manager know the going rate for office managers? (It is for them if they want to get the best pay, but I think the business hiring them doesn't care if they're ignorant.) I think egotistical reasons is on the nose. And doesn't necessarily mean "how dare you negotiate" but could just be "I know we're noncompetitive so I'll say 'no' before you say 'no' because that makes me feel better."
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Nov 13, 2021 01:31
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I checked in with the company I countered an offer, and apparently it isn't just HR being slow, they have been on such a hiring frenzy the approvals for offer increases have been so swamped that they have almost a week and a half backlog for responding to counters. Crazy!
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Nov 13, 2021 05:22
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I just got an offer where the base is not where I had hoped. It comes with a profit sharing bonus, I currently get no bonus. It also comes with less than half the PTO I currently get. How do I figure out how to weigh these things better than wild rear end guess and gut feel? PTO, yikes. I really like taking time off and I already feel like I'm missing it. Profit sharing is kind of a red flag. I'm not really keen on relying on the company to do well as a whole rather than my performance. I know it's a cyclic market, so some years will good and some not.
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Nov 16, 2021 05:06
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